Superhumans pulling an Authority

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Hmm...wonder if Wanderer lost interest, or if everyone just said everything they wanted to say on this...topic's of interest to me b/c I run a lot of high-level games where the characters' actions do have an impact on the game world.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Hmm...wonder if Wanderer lost interest' date=' or if everyone just said everything they wanted to say on this...topic's of interest to me b/c I run a lot of high-level games where the characters' actions do have an impact on the game world.[/quote']

 

I was wondering myself since I am setting up a "high end" game (at least for me) and I thought you raised some good points.

 

Of course, I am a little cynical as too why he lost interest at this point.

[devlin1]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Hey, did anyone see Justice League last night on CN? It posited an alternate universe (Alternate universe? In DC?! That's crazy!) in which the Flash had been killed, and the Justice League was called the Justice Lords. They were a bunch of self-righteous assholes who kept everyone under their superthumb to maintain order. Reminded me of this thread, except I was entertained by it.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Yep, that was one of best eps, IMO. I like how it diverged from the comic continuity as well.

[devlin1]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

It's a two-parter, but if they're showing Part II tonight I'll miss it, because I'll be playing Hero. Stupid gaming! Making me miss TV!

[BishopofB&W]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

I was wondering myself since I am setting up a "high end" game (at least for me) and I thought you raised some good points.

 

Of course, I am a little cynical as too why he lost interest at this point.

 

 

In that case, who wants to help me with my world-conquering campaign with Captain Pureblood and the Aryan Supremacy League?

(ducks under table) Just kidding!

[JLXC]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Ah Wanderer I had this same type of argument months back on 3 different messge boards. The debate raged for almost 2 weeks. I went one step further than you, I suggested that there truly was a god-like being who had massive wisdom and intelligence and actually really knew what to do to fix the world, and it's all the same.

 

The "Reality" is there are too many people who like things just fine the way they are. They like their petty power and greed. They have convinced enough people that they too may have power and greed some day, so they will fight for those that do. Peaceful solutions don't really work with humanity overall, because those who will use more and better violence will win and write the history books about how noble and wonderful they were. No matter WHAT a super being said or did, he would have massive opposition.

 

"I want you all to be peaceful to eachother and stop hurting eachother."

 

"I want all mankind to be equal and treated fairly."

 

"I want to create polution free power for the world."

 

"I want to feed all the people."

 

It don't matter. The corporations and governments would take offense to anyone sticking their nose in to their power base, pure and simple. They would do anything and everything to kill of any being powerful enough to prevent them from being greedy little power monkeys.

 

Also, I truly believe that many folks and most of the govts with nukes Would rather kill everyone than give up their spoiled greedy lifestyles, as suggested by other posters, though they used the "Give me liberty or death" speech HEH.

 

So after many hours of typing and arguing and thinking... I'm pretty sure the human race would rather kill itself out than be subjected to ANY FORM of "Better World" even if it really was better. The fact that they could never do it themselves alone is enough to make them furious enough to do it.

 

So if you tried to portray humanity at all like "real life" the only endgame for the campaign is the humans killing themselves off, and the supers leaving to find a different world where maybe the beings are not quite so insane.

 

YMMV

[Wanderer]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Hmm...wonder if Wanderer lost interest' date=' or if everyone just said everything they wanted to say on this...topic's of interest to me b/c I run a lot of high-level games where the characters' actions do have an impact on the game world.[/quote']

 

Not at all, my friend, not at all. It's just that I got a very busy job schedule the last couple of days, and spent the tiny shreds of leisure time visiting friends, so I couldn't give anything but a very cursory glance to your extremely interesting list of points. Since they look very good, I abstain from comment till I get some time to ponder them.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Ah Wanderer I had this same type of argument months back on 3 different messge boards. The debate raged for almost 2 weeks. I went one step further than you, I suggested that there truly was a god-like being who had massive wisdom and intelligence and actually really knew what to do to fix the world, and it's all the same.

 

The "Reality" is there are too many people who like things just fine the way they are. They like their petty power and greed. They have convinced enough people that they too may have power and greed some day, so they will fight for those that do. Peaceful solutions don't really work with humanity overall, because those who will use more and better violence will win and write the history books about how noble and wonderful they were. No matter WHAT a super being said or did, he would have massive opposition.

 

"I want you all to be peaceful to eachother and stop hurting eachother."

 

"I want all mankind to be equal and treated fairly."

 

"I want to create polution free power for the world."

 

"I want to feed all the people."

 

It don't matter. The corporations and governments would take offense to anyone sticking their nose in to their power base, pure and simple. They would do anything and everything to kill of any being powerful enough to prevent them from being greedy little power monkeys.

 

Also, I truly believe that many folks and most of the govts with nukes Would rather kill everyone than give up their spoiled greedy lifestyles, as suggested by other posters, though they used the "Give me liberty or death" speech HEH.

 

So after many hours of typing and arguing and thinking... I'm pretty sure the human race would rather kill itself out than be subjected to ANY FORM of "Better World" even if it really was better. The fact that they could never do it themselves alone is enough to make them furious enough to do it.

 

So if you tried to portray humanity at all like "real life" the only endgame for the campaign is the humans killing themselves off, and the supers leaving to find a different world where maybe the beings are not quite so insane.

 

YMMV

 

If you look at the thread, the debate wasn't over such beings offering a choice to humanity, but rather imposing it upon them. Imposing "justice" by unjust means is inherently problematic.

Wanderer made no reference to the PCs starting out trying to work through the system, developing their miraculous inventions and offering it freely, or trying to create a legal structure for action short of become the planet's de facto rulers. In one post he referred to humiliating, deposing and executing the elected US President and his cabinet on worldwide television. Does that sound like a group of morally superior beings to you? He also talked about the PCs putting a "beatdown" on heroes who dared to lecture them on the morality of their actions. It doesn't really sound like a group of mature people with cosmic-level abilities who are approaching the world situation in the most appropriate and responsible fashion.

Some of the responses sounded a little extreme, I agree, but see my recent posts on this for some of the more reasonable problems and objections to such an idea.

[JLXC]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

If you look at the thread' date=' the debate wasn't over such beings offering a choice to humanity, but rather imposing it upon them. Imposing "justice" by unjust means is inherently problematic. [/quote']

 

Oh I understood. I still think if you came as the lamb you'd get the same treatment, not at first, they would study you first, but you would get it. Just TRY and upset the world order. Make it so we don't need oil, or food, or disease, and just SEE what would happen. Heck in real life they suppress this stuff and research, not the little improvements, the big ones. So a super, who could not be easily shut up, who tries to help the world, would soon be the target of many many organizations and peoples in the real world, let alone a supers world! Death or Discredit. Whatever it takes to "WIN".

[Allandrel]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

You know who would work well on this team?

 

Magneto. He's got all the self-righteous posturing and genocidal impulses they could want.

 

Patrick J McGraw

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Oh I understood. I still think if you came as the lamb you'd get the same treatment' date=' not at first, they would study you first, but you would get it. Just TRY and upset the world order. Make it so we don't need oil, or food, or disease, and just SEE what would happen. Heck in real life they suppress this stuff and research, not the little improvements, the big ones. So a super, who could not be easily shut up, who tries to help the world, would soon be the target of many many organizations and peoples in the real world, let alone a supers world! Death or Discredit. Whatever it takes to "WIN".[/quote']

 

hmm...well, that's just part of the adversity a hero has to face, if they really want to change the world. But if they stand their ground without going over the line, eventually they'll be able to win popular support for their reforms. Of course, there is the argument that adversity and struggle is part of human existence, and that if the heroes remove too many obstacles and do too many things that humans could eventually accomplish on their own, they will in some ways diminish the meaningfulness of life for a lot of people.

[Brandi]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Heck in real life they suppress this stuff and research' date=' not the little improvements, the big ones.[/quote']

 

When one of the most powerful governments on the planet can't hide one measly blowjob I'm less than convinced that even multinational corporations could suppress major breakthroughs.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

hmm...well' date=' that's just part of the adversity a hero has to face, if they really want to change the world. But if they stand their ground without going over the line, eventually they'll be able to win popular support for their reforms. Of course, there is the argument that adversity and struggle is part of human existence, and that if the heroes remove too many obstacles and do too many things that humans could eventually accomplish on their own, they will in some ways diminish the meaningfulness of life for a lot of people.[/quote']

 

I remember something similar being touched on in Aberrant. Certain members of the Teragen are against Baseline and Nova asscociation because it's not good for either race. Baselines should not become docile and dependant on Nova gods to solve all their problems or, like coddled children, they will never "mature" or learn to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

The problem I find with these take over scenarios is pretty simple. Some might call it the "give me liberty or give me death" speech, but I'm leery of giving someone absolute power over me strictly on their word. Sure, they might now even get to me, they're running the world. But there is that possibility. And what makes these "superhumans" so much more fit to rule than the normal humans we have in charge already? I have never seen one of these advanced being decribed and portrayed as any more than a normal human, perhaps slightly more intelligent with an overblown since of self worth because they can fly, or shoot laser from their eyes. They're going to have to prove to me that they are morally superior, innately more wise beings before I will peacefully or eagerly submit to their rule. Before that, they are just one more group of radicals that wants to shove their agenda down my throat. I think many people would feel similarly. All of us have ideas of how to "make the world better". What makes this group any more right than mine that I should accept their version without question? The fact they have the power to enforce their desires? In the end, these superhumans are just people and every bit as falliable as anyone else. Just when they screw up its hurts more people. They would have to prove to me they are worthy leaders before I follow them. And kicking in the door to the White House and killing a bunch of people on TV because they didn't like their policies is not a good start, IMNSHO.

 

Look at the attitudes expressed by some of the pro take over posters. People are stupid. People are sheep. People are insane. Would you really want someone with that opinon (even if its correct) in charge of you? Look at The Authority. Would you really want to live under these guys? Some of them are genetically engineered killing machines, nigh immortal supernatural beings. One of them is a cosmically powered drug addict. If they didn't have powers, would any of them stand a chance at being a leader threw any sort of popular choice (with the possible exception of Jenny Sparks)?

 

Another thing that strike me is that if these beings are so much advanced beyond the human condition that they are innately superior do they have any connection to normal humans at all anymore? If you have truly cosmic power, how do you relate to a normal man/woman that has to work everyday, feed the kids and pay the bills? How long before you start to view people as just numbers in a glorified real time version of Sim City? And anyone who's played that game knows some of the ruthless things you can do and much fun it can be.

 

So I think one of the biggest issues is going to be popular resistance from "normal people". Yes, they will have supporters. Radical draw followers, I guess its the "sheep" thing. But this group is going to have to work hard to win trust. "Beating down" authority figures that dare speak up, and assasinating those that displease isn't going to cut it. They're going to have prove that they are fit to rule, either by well meaning action or appeasement. Public relations is going to be one of their biggest problems. Like I beleive I posted earlier, my idea of a preferred method for this sort of thing would be slow and involve more innovation and politicing. Not terribly "exciting" stuff, but the question was how to realistically handle the situation.

[JLXC]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

When one of the most powerful governments on the planet can't hide one measly blowjob I'm less than convinced that even multinational corporations could suppress major breakthroughs.

 

This is the attitude that lets it happen sorry to say. You may THINK they can't suppress important things, but that's just what you think.

 

There are still things from the 1900's that are suppressed like Tesla's material and Roswell and many secret projects you never heard of. People like to think they are so smart and the "big guys" are so dumb. It only appears that way heh.

[Kristopher]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

This is the attitude that lets it happen sorry to say. You may THINK they can't suppress important things, but that's just what you think.

 

There are still things from the 1900's that are suppressed like Tesla's material and Roswell and many secret projects you never heard of. People like to think they are so smart and the "big guys" are so dumb. It only appears that way heh.

 

The Roswell nonsense is tinfoil hat territory, and most of Tesla's useful ideas made it into the general idea pool AFAIK.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Is it just me, or is Jenny Sparks almost always the exception to [insert assessment of the Authority here]??

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Is it just me' date=' or is Jenny Sparks almost always the exception to [insert assessment of the Authority here']??

 

Well, she's a jaded, world weary cynical sarcastic witch alot of the time, but she does seem did seem to have more of a moral compass than the rest of them.

[The Maxx]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

The fact they have the power to enforce their desires? In the end' date=' these superhumans are just people and every bit as falliable as anyone else. Just when they screw up its hurts more people. They would have to prove to me they are worthy leaders before I follow them. And kicking in the door to the White House and killing a bunch of people on TV because they didn't like their policies is not a good start, IMNSHO.[/quote']

 

Interject a point or two here, wasn't the reason for this act of storming the White House, in response to said administration attempting to 'nuke' the Superhumans in question, who had merely been disposing of vicious dictatorships and negligent corporate business operators. I don't know about you but if said administration tried to nuke me, and serioiusly endanger numerous other lives (innocent and otherwise) I'd respond with serious force as well.

 

On the otherhand humans on a whole are a remarkably stubborn lot, and would in light of such events, especially if people are only given part of the information, they would whole heartedly jump on the bandwangon to bring these 'terrorists' down.

 

Look at the attitudes expressed by some of the pro take over posters. People are stupid. People are sheep. People are insane. Would you really want someone with that opinon (even if its correct) in charge of you?

 

If you think about it, don't certain world leaders already view some of us as little more than 'sheep'. I've little doubt I'd be sacrificed without a second thought if that insured some politically driven individual a postion of power.

 

Look at The Authority. Would you really want to live under these guys? Some of them are genetically engineered killing machines, nigh immortal supernatural beings. One of them is a cosmically powered drug addict. If they didn't have powers, would any of them stand a chance at being a leader threw any sort of popular choice (with the possible exception of Jenny Sparks)?

 

No I don't like The Authority at all, and the world would be a very harsh place for someone like myself. And without their powers I doubt any of them would even have such inclinations in the first place. On a side note, tackling that last statement, if rumors are to be believed, and this was a rumor I've heard the U.S. 's current commander and chief did a bit of snorting back in his day.

Another thing that strike me is that if these beings are so much advanced beyond the human condition that they are innately superior do they have any connection to normal humans at all anymore? If you have truly cosmic power, how do you relate to a normal man/woman that has to work everyday, feed the kids and pay the bills? How long before you start to view people as just numbers in a glorified real time version of Sim City? And anyone who's played that game knows some of the ruthless things you can do and much fun it can be.

 

So I think one of the biggest issues is going to be popular resistance from "normal people". Yes, they will have supporters. Radical draw followers, I guess its the "sheep" thing. But this group is going to have to work hard to win trust. "Beating down" authority figures that dare speak up, and assasinating those that displease isn't going to cut it. They're going to have prove that they are fit to rule, either by well meaning action or appeasement. Public relations is going to be one of their biggest problems. Like I beleive I posted earlier, my idea of a preferred method for this sort of thing would be slow and involve more innovation and politicing. Not terribly "exciting" stuff, but the question was how to realistically handle the situation.

 

And here's were I agree, PR would be their biggest issue, as for relating to the common man, well for that it'd depend on how Doctor Mahattanish they are.

Having seen little info as to how powerful these individuals are [i.e. write-ups] that would be a bit hard to judge.

 

Stepping a bit back from where this idea was going, it's interesting that a lot of people seemed to agree that goverment's would escalate the issue with these individuals and react violently. I'd see diplomacy to be the morelikely course myself, we'd try to talk to these individuals first and foremost. Military force would likely be a last of the last resorts.

 

Another thing to consider would be a persons survival instinct, in face of such beings, would a 'realistic' officer of the law honestly obey orders to attempt to bring in someone, with whatever paltry equipment they had, who could punch through walls, get hit by a oil tanker full on and have it explode and walk away without so much of a scratch, or could literally move faster than his eyes could follow. There is something to be said for personal risk.

 

However I'd think there'd be a diplomatic approach before a military one, unless these individuals proved to be remarkably hostile to such overtures.

 

But that's my .01 the IRS took the other one

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Interject a point or two here, wasn't the reason for this act of storming the White House, in response to said administration attempting to 'nuke' the Superhumans in question, who had merely been disposing of vicious dictatorships and negligent corporate business operators. I don't know about you but if said administration tried to nuke me, and serioiusly endanger numerous other lives (innocent and otherwise) I'd respond with serious force as well.

 

On the otherhand humans on a whole are a remarkably stubborn lot, and would in light of such events, especially if people are only given part of the information, they would whole heartedly jump on the bandwangon to bring these 'terrorists' down.

 

 

 

If you think about it, don't certain world leaders already view some of us as little more than 'sheep'. I've little doubt I'd be sacrificed without a second thought if that insured some politically driven individual a postion of power.

 

 

 

No I don't like The Authority at all, and the world would be a very harsh place for someone like myself. And without their powers I doubt any of them would even have such inclinations in the first place. On a side note, tackling that last statement, if rumors are to be believed, and this was a rumor I've heard the U.S. 's current commander and chief did a bit of snorting back in his day.

 

 

And here's were I agree, PR would be their biggest issue, as for relating to the common man, well for that it'd depend on how Doctor Mahattanish they are.

Having seen little info as to how powerful these individuals are [i.e. write-ups] that would be a bit hard to judge.

 

Stepping a bit back from where this idea was going, it's interesting that a lot of people seemed to agree that goverment's would escalate the issue with these individuals and react violently. I'd see diplomacy to be the morelikely course myself, we'd try to talk to these individuals first and foremost. Military force would likely be a last of the last resorts.

 

Another thing to consider would be a persons survival instinct, in face of such beings, would a 'realistic' officer of the law honestly obey orders to attempt to bring in someone, with whatever paltry equipment they had, who could punch through walls, get hit by a oil tanker full on and have it explode and walk away without so much of a scratch, or could literally move faster than his eyes could follow. There is something to be said for personal risk.

 

However I'd think there'd be a diplomatic approach before a military one, unless these individuals proved to be remarkably hostile to such overtures.

 

But that's my .01 the IRS took the other one

 

Orginally, it was a "revenge" thing, but violence seemed to progress as the discussion went on to become the standard reaction to those that resisted or even spoke out aginst the new management. Or that was the impression I got. And this would be after diplomacy had failed to stem these "radical activist" the nuclear strike wasn't the first act of the government, it was last ditch effort.

 

Yeah, there are alot of asses in charge. I want to see them not in charge. That doesn't mean I'd be jumping for joy over some super powered assses taking over.

 

And you're right. They could easily terrify people into submission. Its worked before for people without super powers. That doesn't mean there would not be passive resistance.

 

As for their power level, this hypothetical player characters have been described have been described as being able to withstand a full scale nuclear strike, possess Full Life Support, to have with in their means to not only defeat, but crush the combined military might of the world if arrayed against them and "beat down" any other super that dares mouth off to them. I think they're pretty much in the Dr. Manhattan/Superman league. That's going to put them pretty far and away from the Joe and Jane Normal. Even the Authority touched on this once or twice.

[Kevin]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Justice League animated series did this for an alternate world scenario when Luthor became President and Superman killed him with Heat Vision, then their version of JL took over.

 

They declared martial law.

 

Took over the media.

 

A resistance immediately formed.

 

Because the supers were so powerful, the resistance was secret and waged guerrila warfare on the flunkies backing the supers.

 

The public was rallied to oppose them, even in the face of certain death.

 

You could slowly poison our country by slowly, methodically eroding our freedoms one by one while palcating us through the use of media, but you could never strong arm us without opposition.

 

We are a stubborn people.

[Jinx999]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Your characters are a group of self-righteous tyrants. You are living in fantasyland if you think people will accept rule by these tits. I would not. They can kill me but they can't make me take them seriously. I'm sure that torturing me or my loved ones sufficiently would obtain my grudging surrender. Is that what they would resort to? Because that is what it would take. I wouldn't be particularily worried about that either. There would be about a billion people in line first. I'd die of old age before they got around to me. (If I didn't starve or freeze to death first due to their environmental fanaticism.)

[Hermit]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well, the one good thing about this thread is I think I know more about how some super villains think, especially the ones who seek to control the world for "The greater good."

 

I may incorporate some of this into V'Han's mindset.

[lemming]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well, the one good thing about this thread is I think I know more about how some super villains think, especially the ones who seek to control the world for "The greater good."

 

I may incorporate some of this into V'Han's mindset.

Cool. That's one of the reasons I come by this thread is for the plot ideas.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well, the one good thing about this thread is I think I know more about how some super villains think, especially the ones who seek to control the world for "The greater good."

 

I may incorporate some of this into V'Han's mindset.

 

Yeah, but most of my villains aren't as violent and ruthless as these guys.