FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by D-Man

Or use the Rapid Fire rule for this, with multiple arrows at once being the SFX

 

And buy lots of Penalty skill levels!

[Chuk]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton

5. A picture of Steve holding a bastardsword, which has impailed a 3rd Ed D&D Book, giving us a thumbs up!

 

I'd pay extra for that, but I could see how it might not be a good idea...

[buynoski]

Answerng Opinions Wanted for "What's to be in FH"

 

Steve asked what we'd all like to see.

 

Everything that Steve listed in his book, both the in-list and the out-list sounded pretty good.

 

Since magic is the major "aspect" of fantasy gaming that is different from other genres, I'd suggest that perhaps more emphasis be placed on how to build magic "spells". Especially with some of the known "problem areas" where newer people (or vets. who slip up) tend to get "stuck" or "mess up the system". Examples of bad construction than has ended up derailing games could also be good, i.e. what to avoid.

[Super Squirrel]

One of my greatest dilemnas with magic in a heroic level campaign has been endurance. I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly. I just need a good suggestion that keeps it fair and balanced. So, hopefully it will address that.

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel

One of my greatest dilemnas with magic in a heroic level campaign has been endurance. I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly. I just need a good suggestion that keeps it fair and balanced. So, hopefully it will address that.

 

I've found that making magic cost long-term END, prohibiting 0 END powers, and placing major restrictions on the availabilty of END Reserves helps a lot with this problem. You can tailor the amount of magic you want your players to be able to use quite easily this way; if you find they're still acting as a one-man heavy weapons battalion, you can get rid of their END Reserves and/or make sure that all their magic requires Increased END.

 

The only thing you have to do to make sure that these rather underhanded tactics are campaign-balanced is to ensure that the Bad Guys are labouring under the same restrictions.

[etherio]

Many suggestions that I see here are uncomfortably close to asking Mr. Long to convert D&D or some other system or setting into HERO for them. From the perspective of someone comfortable enough to design a campaign world of his own, please concentrate on aiding the GM and players in getting the flair of fantasy into their games. For example:

 

5th Ed. is awesome, but it could use a little extra fantasy-tailored spice. If what HERO is supposed to do is capture the heroic-cinematic aspect of the genre, please enrich the combat maneuvers table so that players have more options and can really get that feeling of melee that a good action flick has.

 

Also, some rules or suggestions on when it is and isn't convenient, appropriate, practical, or comfortable to wear different types of armor. Cross-country riding in mail? Leather jerkin in the desert?

 

Some guidelines concerning the effectiveness of different types of weapons on inanimate objects. Should my knight with a 2d6 sword be able to chop his way through iron bars or a stone wall, even if the stats say so? Obviously not, but where is the line drawn? This kind of thing comes up more often than I'd like.

 

Let's see some real numbers for siege weapons and methods.

 

How about wear and tear for weapons and armor?

 

A thousand pardons if any or all of these were mentioned already.

[Yamo]

I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly.

 

The best solutions to this that I've found have been:

 

1. A magic MP with a single pool of charges.

 

Or...

 

2. A magic END Reserve that fuels all spells and only recovers under specific circumstances (long lengths of time, a full night's sleep, lengthy spellbook study etc).

[Olliande]

New rule

 

Hero 5th edition is a very good stuuf but i don't think tha very rule are suitable for every genre ( cost of the Force Field for example).

It would be cool to provide Fantasy Hero Rule for this few point to avoid GM look in the net for House rule ( like Force Field , Initiative, every Player with 20 Dex and Speed 4, etc...).

I know that it's not the way, Hero Games work but it would be better (IMO).

P.S. my apologize for my poor english.

[MisterD]

Care and Handeling of Gods

 

Take care of how you handle gods. and how they give aid to clerical classes.

 

I suggest don't give them charactersheets unless they are avatars of gods (Representations used to interact with mortals) of Godlings (the offspring of gods and mortals)

 

(In on old 1st edition AD&D game a Grand master Assasin killed Lolloth)

 

As for Clerics. Maybe a different form of magic than Wizards. Since Clerical magic is supposed to be aid givien by their gods (and a god is supposed to be able to do ANYTHING acording to thier portfolio (A god of Love can not make a volcano erupt in my opinion)) I thin a VPP with penalties or bonuses based on how close theyr roleplay following thier religion.

[DMTingle]

I like most of the suggestions.

 

I would like to see a two-handed battle sword art form/HTH style. The kind depicted in fourteenth and fifteenth century swordsmanship training manuals, not the typical cleave and step forward, cleave and step forward..... The manuevers depicted in those old manuals showed the two hander being used as almost anything BUT a cleaver like it's typically used in most RPG sessions.

[Super Squirrel]

Originally posted by Yamo

The best solutions to this that I've found have been:

 

1. A magic MP with a single pool of charges.

 

Or...

 

2. A magic END Reserve that fuels all spells and only recovers under specific circumstances (long lengths of time, a full night's sleep, lengthy spellbook study etc).

I tried the END Reserve with REC every hour and it didn't cure the problem. The problem was too many spells being used at once and overturning a battle to easily. I don't want to crank up the challange level to compensate. I am just hoping this new book offers suggestions for handling magic power levels based on campaign setting.

[GradonSilverton]

What do you mean about the spells overturning the battle?

 

Are you saying that everyone was casting speels and turing it into a psuedo super game?

[Old Man]

I think that's kind of what he means. In spite of his limiting efforts, the players had a tendancy to "unload" on whatever it was that was threatening them. Then they would take time off to "recharge" and then move on.

 

To counter this without cranking up the danger level too high I would recommend that the monsters play smart. Like the raptors in Jurassic Park. The send out individual scouts and the scouts call for reinforcement when prey is spotted. Another way to do it would be to have one of the critters get away in order to get help or draw the party into an ambush. The longer fight while not being overly deadly will quickly drain magical resources. Just don't do it all the time.

[GradonSilverton]

Sounds exactly right...if they blow their load too early....kind of sucks for them.

 

But this makes me wonder if the problem is the amount of time or the requirement for regaining the Spell END??

 

Also is everyone in the world but the "Bad Guys" casting spells? One complaint I've always had about Fantasy games is that people tend to think Magic and Magical Weapons grow on trees!!!

 

Magic should be mystical and not very understood...should it exist? Absolutly! Should Farmer Dan and his 3 year old each be able to cast some sort of spell? NO! Samething occures with Weapons, apparently in the D&D world there is a Magic Weapon factory at every Bed & Breakfast cranking out +1 or +2 Longswords...I despise this.

 

I also like skill rolls to allow the unpredictable nature of magic...I just cast An entangle, now I want to cast a straight up blast...but the question is can I change my thought pattern enough to tap into the correct stream (roll my d6's and find out).

[Markdoc]

I have taken two different approaches to thsi problem.

 

The first is the "simple solution" - casting magic requires some hard to replace material.

 

In my standard fantasy game this is "mana" which is generated by living things: in Game terms, BOD. The magic user either has to have a living sacrifice to hand, or draw on his own life force. There are a variety of ways around this (Drains, buying extra Bod, Storing BOD in magical vessels etc, but all of them have limitations of one kind or another) and have successfully restricted the frequency of magic use. it is still incredibly useful, but the focus of magic use has shifted away from doing damage. It's much easier to rely on the swordswingers when casting a lightning bolt spell causes the caster 8 BOD damage! On the other hand, casting an invisibility spell or a fly spell at a crucial moment can be worth the hit. What tended to happen was that mages would build up a reserve of BOD and could then cast a lot of small (but very useful) spells, or go for the one big hit with lethal spells (the 6d6 explosive RKA for when that horde was bearing down on you). Mages got multipowers with no upper points limit to compensate, since the system was self-limiting.

 

In a Runequest-inspired game, it was EGO. The more spells you cast, the less EGO you had - and since all spells were BOECV, the less effective your spells were and more susceptible you became to magical counter attack.

 

Both of these approaches reduce the effectivity of mages as mobile weapons platforms, but still allow widespread magic use.

 

The second approach was to stick magic users with a complicated thaumaturgic system, which all but mandated not only extra time - but also the right times - only a fool or a desperate man casts a fireball spell when the moon is in the house of Aquarius (a water sign), or the planet Neptune is ascending - since all spells had side effects. The same system of planetary influences severely curtailed long term spell casting.

 

This not only restricted magic to the role I wanted, but encouraged magic-users to play like "authentic" medieval mages, hoarding elements for spell casting, checking astrological charts. Foci were not required for spells, but having suitable foci gave bonuses to casting. So you don't NEED an arrow fletched with peregrine feathers to cast The Spell of the Shortened Path (20" running @ 0 END) - but it will give you +2 to the roll. Likewise you don't HAVE to cast the spell in the hours that Mercury is ascendant - but you get +2 to the roll if you do....

 

and so on.

 

The thing is, these suggestions are entirely campaign-specific, and not all all useful for someone who wants a rip-roaring high fantasy game with Dragon-riders, flying castles and players who routinely wield mighty magics. I would guess Steve will include a substantial giudelines section on "How to keep you magic users from getting out of hand" since it is probably the most important part of the whole "how to do magic" chapter.

 

cheers, Mark

[Steve Long]

Folx, please let's keep this thread on-track. If you want to discuss "how I solved X problem in my FH game," please do -- in a separate thread.

 

Let's keep this focused on the contents of the future FH book. "Please address this problem in FH" is all I need to see here.

[Southern Cross]

Fantasy as a Genre

 

As explained in the first edition of Fantasy Hero,what distinguishes fantasy from other genres is the presence of magic.

Tangentially,I think that setting active points in the fantasy genre is usually a bad idea,unless you want a low-powered setting.It seems more in genre to limit the Real Cost of a spell to either INT (for mages), EGO (for psionics),and PRE (for clerics).

[slaughterj]

For the latest FH, create vast lists of PSs, KSs, etc., and explain why characters should have them (in lieu of CSLs ). Obviously some would be campaign specific (e.g., many AKs), but plenty of general discussion would be good.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Markdoc

The second approach was to stick magic users with a complicated thaumaturgic system, which all but mandated not only extra time - but also the right times - only a fool or a desperate man casts a fireball spell when the moon is in the house of Aquarius (a water sign), or the planet Neptune is ascending - since all spells had side effects. The same system of planetary influences severely curtailed long term spell casting.

Aquarius is an air sign. The water signs are Pisces, Cancer, and Scorpio.

 

Originally posted by Steve

Chapter Three, Combat And Adventuring: various new/optional rules pertaining to combat; stuff about weapons; mass combat rules..

I hope the mass combat system (or systems) will accommodate various scales. If the PCs are joined by 20 NPCs to fight off 100 goblins, it would be nice to have a short-cut system that still allows for individual action by the PCs. But a large-scale battle with hundreds of troops of various kinds on each side is an entirely different kettle of fish.

 

Originally posted by Steve

Chapter Four, Magic: Magic system creation; spell creation; magic items and their creation. Will include approximately a dozen sample magic systems, each with four or more sample spells; I may try to make one or two spells the same in every system, just to demonstrate the variations. Will also include lots of sample enchanted items..

Will sample spells be sufficient to illustrate the magic systems? I would think the spells would be quite similar across systems. The big differences will be in the frameworks that the spells fit into. Perhaps you could use some of the sample characters later in the book to illustrate how characters might be built using different magic frameworks. Or build one spellcasting character multiple times, using different selected frameworks. It will be hard to do justice to each of a dozen frameworks, however, without using up a lot of pages. And most players will care about only one of the systems - the one their GM selects. Perhaps the detailed examples would work better as supplemental material than as part of the FH book: Maybe a DH article or web give-away. Or The Ultimate Wizard.

 

A few sample enchanted items are necessary to illustrate how to apply the rules for creating items, but I would rather not see any more magic items than absolutely necessary. The power level and flavor of magic items should depend on the campaign/setting. You say you don't want to establish a default magic system. Please do not establish a default catalog of magic items, either.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel

One of my greatest dilemnas with magic in a heroic level campaign has been endurance. I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly. I just need a good suggestion that keeps it fair and balanced. So, hopefully it will address that.

 

Along this line a theoretical mana system might be a good idea.

 

Ah, yes... the poweder of the Green Lotus. Turns you into a spellcasting uber-mage for a while, but the side effects can be most... unpleasant.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

A "mana" based system such as GURPS (endurance battery?)

 

Magic with required prequisites (you need this to even have the potential to use magic or to cast a specific spell)

 

I agree with these points. This handle I use is the name of a wizard of my creation, so magic is something I give an awful lot of thought to.

 

In my never-run FH setting, I had a Magical Tallent Perk that had to be bought in order to learn and cast spells. How many points you spent on the Perk determined if you learned spells individually, or if you could get a VPP and make up spells as you went. Clerics needed the True Faith Perk, Paladins (who do not necessarily have to be Lawful Good) needed the Holy Warrior Perk. And rather than having spells, paladins and clerics have pre-defined powers they can buy depending on the deity they worship (in D&D terms, they only get Domain spells, not generic ones).

 

The one nice thing about requiring the Perks was that I treated it as another -1/4 Limitation to help drive down the Real Point Cost of spells.

 

Another idea, take a cue from Diablo II. Barbarian warcries are awesome magical powers for "pure" fighter-types.

 

One halmark of the D&D system is insane amounts of hit points at higher levels. Why not add Perks, Powers or Talents that remove the N.C.M caps from stats so there is an "in game logic" for having super-heroic amounts of BODY and CON? The same thing could be used for rougues to have dizzying DEX, fighters with legendary STR, and so on.

 

I'd also like to see a good system for clerics to repel/turn/rebuke the undead. That is either a special power for clerics to have, a built-in weakness for all undead monsters, or a combination of the two.

[slaughterj]

Re: Fantasy as a Genre

 

Originally posted by Southern Cross

As explained in the first edition of Fantasy Hero,what distinguishes fantasy from other genres is the presence of magic.

Tangentially,I think that setting active points in the fantasy genre is usually a bad idea,unless you want a low-powered setting.It seems more in genre to limit the Real Cost of a spell to either INT (for mages), EGO (for psionics),and PRE (for clerics).

 

However, the presence of magic doesn't necessarily mean the players wield magic - just the opposite may be the case in some swords-&-sorcery style campaigns. I'm currently running a campaign set in Lieber's Lankhmar where the players don't have magic, but have encountered it, fought it, etc. (could be done in Howard's Conan as well).

[tesuji]

What you describe is certainly ONE genre of fantasy magic.

 

others use magic as much less a representation of unknowable forces and much more as a tool.

 

For example, the Jhereg series by Stephen Brust shows us a (IMO wonderful) fantasy world where magic is fairly commonplace and as a matter of fact magic items are commodities. The strong class structure is still somewhat medieval in effect (very much have's and have-nots and little between) but magical power playes a role in addition to station and money.

 

I would hope FH would support both.

 

Originally posted by GradonSilverton

Magic should be mystical and not very understood...should it exist? Absolutly! Should Farmer Dan and his 3 year old each be able to cast some sort of spell? NO! Samething occures with Weapons, apparently in the D&D world there is a Magic Weapon factory at every Bed & Breakfast cranking out +1 or +2 Longswords...I despise this.

[slaughterj]

Something else I'd like to see in FH:

 

Handling what it means to have "cast" and "maintain" a spell. Here's what I mean: If I have a Flight spell, requiring Gestures & Incantations & Magic Skill Roll, and cast it when I wake up, does it remain "active" all day long, short of being stunned or ko'd? Presumably so. But what if I cast a HKA, wanting to create claws that work for a while - presumably a Magic Skill Roll would be appropriate, but in this form, it would only work once, then have to be recast. Conceivably Continuous could be added, but that would cost END every phase - how could a "Claws" spell be made where the END is only used when the Claws are used? Similarly, for a RKA, throwing a mini-fireball each phase, but only having to cast it once, how that should be set up should be included. Back to the Claws example, how about Claws that appear when the claws are in use, but "retract" (i.e., not visible) otherwise, but the spell is still "up" (i.e., doesn't need to be recast).

 

In sum, I'd like to see how advantages and limitations can be set up for spells so that all sorts of permutations on how they are cast, maintained, and used are provided.

[Tyrant]

Steve,

I know that you've mentioned that you'll include mass combat rules, and for that I'm incredibly grateful, but please oh please don't treat it as an afterthought.

 

Please give it the attention it deserves. Mass combat offers a great deal of potential for any fantasy game, but very few publishers ever bother with it. HERO is idealy suited to handle the issue and I would love to see it done right for once.

 

And although I doubt you'll have the room for this in the FH book, perhaps in some future supplement you could give some rules or guidlines for actually raising an army, or perhaps even ruling a kingdom. It seems to me like these would go very well with a mass combat rules set.

 

And speaking of future books, earlier in the thread you mentioned something about "Battlegrounds". Could you please give us some idea of what that is?

 

Thanks.

Tyrant