DEX vs. CSLs

[Earen]

I've recently been bringing some long-time roleplayers, but first-time Hero players into the fold. And I was brought up with the idea (from one of the old Adventurer's Club articles) that Combat Skill Levels are generally better overall than raw DEX because they offer more flexibility. Now, personally, I don't need any convincing ... but I've got a rules-lawyer-type player (who insists that he's just "learning the system" not being a rules lawyer ... uh-huh) for whom it boils down to this:

 

• 3 points of DEX = +1 OCV and +1 DCV
  
• 3 points of DEX costs 9 Character Points
  
• 1 Overall CSL = +1 OCV or +1 DCV
  
• 1 Overall CSL costs 8 Character Points
  

 

I've pointed out that CSLs can be combined to increase the DC of weapons and that one is typically concerned with OCV or DCV, but not both. I've also pointed out that DEX is subject to Drains, Supresses and Transfers whereas CSLs are, though theoretically possible, a much rarer target. But he's just not buying it. In his opinion ... DEX is what it's all about, character concept be damned.

 

So ... what am I missing here? Obviously, I've been around Hero for a long time ... but it's been a long while since I've had anybody to play Hero System games with. Can anybody help with some examples of where CSLs are more flexible than raw DEX and worth the "extra" cost?

[Snarf]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

For one thing, there's the possibility to add damage, as you've already mentioned. So the breakdown is more like this:

• 3 points of DEX = +1 OCV and +1 DCV
  
• 3 points of DEX costs 9 Character Points
  
• 1 Overall CSL = +1 OCV or +1 DCV or 1/2 DC
  
• 1 Overall CSL costs 8 Character Points
  

 

For another, in a heroic game, NCM makes DEX cost twice as much after 20, so CSLs are cheaper by comparison. Also, you can buy cheap 2, 3, or 5 point CSLs to get an extra boost where it's really needed. In general, as a new player he should just trust that core system rules have been thorougly playtested and assigned costs that correctly reflect their effectiveness in the average game.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Just smile enigmatically, let the point whoring rules lawyer make "Dexter the Monkey Boy" and then paste him first night out of the gate with a CSL packing brick.

 

The fact is to a point DEX is more efficient -- it boosts your OCV and DCV, your Initiative, all DEX Based Skills and Raw DEX rolls, and figures into SPD. However, this assumes that a character wants to go first, has DEX based Skills, or takes actions where they need a DEX roll occasionally. For some character archetypes these are not valid assumptions, and in those cases the DEX option may not be as attractive.

 

For the heavy absorbo or blocko characters, going first isnt that big of a deal, and they dont have much or any need for DEX skill or DEX rolls. CSLs look pretty handsome to such characters.

 

For the mentalists EGO is much more important and meaningful.

 

For the blaster PSLs vs Range with one attack or a small group are more efficient, with some 2 or 3 point levels with their blast or MP of choice.

 

Your rules lawyer will never understand this, but there is also this thing known as "character concept". If all characters have 20 DEX, 20 DEX means nothing and might as well be 10 DEX.

[JmOz]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

First off, In My experience the best is the 3 point skill levels, followed by dex (My current character has a Dex of 29 and 3 3 point skill levels).

 

Reasons:

 

Most characters only use a small number of attacks normaly (Martial Arts, Multi Powers, or for the bricks alot of strikes, haymakers, and one other, etc...). So looking at them:

 

2 Skill levels gives +2 OCV, +2 DCV, +1 OCV/+1 DCV OR +1 DC: Cost 6 Points

3 points of dex gives +1 OCV/+1 DCV, +3 Initiative AND reduces cost of speed by 3 points, General cost after the speed reduction is 6 points.

 

Remember there are a couple of ways to increase your Init in combat (Hip shots, etc...) and as such those skill levels can help with those penalties

 

 

Of course in NCM games skill levels are the best in general (Once you get a dex of 20 )

[sbarron]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Basically, the rules lawyer is right. DEX is more efficient than CSLs. CSL still have utility for certain characters, and I use them all the time to create characters that aren't that fast, but are still good in combat. But if you do the math, DEX is the more efficient buy.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Also don't forget that CSLs can be used to Bounce a ranged attack (FREd page 249), and some GMs allow them to be added to certain Skills such as Combat Driving or Combat Piloting. (They could also be used to reduce Turn Mode in earlier editions, though I'm not finding that rule for 5th.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Also don't forget that CSLs can be used to Bounce a ranged attack (FREd page 249)' date=' and some GMs allow them to be added to certain Skills such as Combat Driving or Combat Piloting. (They could also be used to reduce Turn Mode in earlier editions, though I'm not finding that rule for 5th.)[/quote']

 

p242 Movement Skill Levels

 

DEX is more effecient in that it provides OCV and DCV simultaneously, as well as all sorts of other benefits (SPD, DEX Based Rolls).

 

CSLs are good for, as everyone mentioned, Heroic campaigns with NCM.

 

But, CLs are also much better for character concept. Personally I don't go for the 8pt CSL, if I go that high I usually go the extra 2pt for an Overall Level. Mostly the 3pt and 5pt CSLs are much better for what I want .. the trick shot character are best done with CSLs as you can use them to bounce attacks, add DCs etc..

[SleepyDrug]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

This is really an issue of game balance from what i'm reading. Your rules lawyer wants the most bang for his buck, so to speak. But the cheapest way is not always the fairest way in HERO.

 

Raw attributes are always less expensive than anything else; but they are not always fair or appropriate.

[dstarfire]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Dex and CSL's each have their place. CSL's add a LOT more flexibility to nehancing your fighting style. Also, 2 5-point csl's can give you +2 ocv with all hth or all ranged for a measly 10 pts. It's far cheaper too boost just the few things you use all the time, rather than buying straight dex to boost everything

[devlin1]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Am I the only one who sees one as nature, and the other as nurture? DEX is innate agility/ability, and CSLs are refined skills. So if you want your guy to be a fast (but normal) human who's good with a Colt Magnum, give him an 18 DEX and CSLs with Pistols. If you want to make an impossibly-fast mutant, or an otherwise altered human, who's not a combat monster (e.g., an Energy Blaster who's not a militant), give them superhuman DEX and maybe a CSL or two with their MP to allow for some flexibility.

 

Batman has a decent DEX and a lot of Levels, because he's been training his whole life.

Superman has a phenomenal DEX and not as many Levels, because he relies on talent more than skill.

 

IMO, anyway. It's a character, not a tax return.

[Earen]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Thanks everyone for the responses ... I'm glad to see that there wasn't much that I missed

 

Am I the only one who sees one as nature' date=' and the other as nurture?[/quote']

 

No, I don't think you are. (And BTW, I'm running a Heroic-level Fantasy campaign ... not that the superheroic examples don't apply.) This was the first thing mentioned to my power-gaming player, but he insisted that "getting the most out of the system" wasn't power-gaming ... despite the fact that I was most excited to have him in the group because he was the one to come up with the most solid, well-thought-out character concept (a big, brick-type who's "good at combat"). Well ... that concept went out the window after the first night ... then he wanted a still-kinda-big, but pretty fast martial arts type.

 

That'll teach me to help make characters for beginning Hero players ...

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the help guys

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Dex and CSL's each have their place. CSL's add a LOT more flexibility to nehancing your fighting style. Also' date=' 2 5-point csl's can give you +2 ocv with all hth or all ranged for a measly 10 pts. It's far cheaper too boost just the few things you use all the time, rather than buying straight dex to boost everything[/quote']

 

5 pt CSLs are especially inefficient. For 10 pts you get +2 OCV or +2 (limited) DCV or +1 DC.

 

For 12 pts (after savings from speed), you get +6 dex which gets you +2 OCV and +2 (unlimited) DCV and +6 initiative and +1.2 on Agility skill rolls and +1.2 on raw Dex rolls.

 

The only skill levels that are possibly cost efficient are 2, 3, and 10 pointers, depending on exactly how the character is built.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

I've also pointed out that DEX is subject to Drains' date=' Supresses and Transfers whereas CSLs are, though theoretically possible, a much rarer target. [/quote']

 

That's not really a relevant argument. That's because the CSL dude has Dex to drain as well. It's only when Dex is drained down to 0 where it becomes a factor, and then CSL Dude with negative Dex has all sorts of other problems as well.

 

Example:

 

Character A has 26 dex with no levels. OCV/DCV 9

Character B has 14 dex with 4 levels. OCV/DCV 5 with 4 levels

 

They get hit by a 6 dex drain.

 

Character A has OCV/DCV 7 now

Character B has OCV/DCV 3 with 4 levels now.

 

Both are equally hurt.

 

Now suppose they get drained 20 dex instead.

 

Character A has OCV/DCV 2 now

Character B has OCV/DCV 0 now with 4 levels (and -6 dex)

 

Character B has more OCV than A, but he has to make a 8- Dex roll to do anything, even aiming at a target. And he can't use his CSLs unless he makes that 8- Dex roll first. He's a complete sitting duck.

 

The high dex dude is better off even in the case of a large Dex drain, because of the extra "buffer" that his Dex affords him.

[UltraRob]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

This is really an issue of game balance from what i'm reading. Your rules lawyer wants the most bang for his buck, so to speak. But the cheapest way is not always the fairest way in HERO.

 

Raw attributes are always less expensive than anything else; but they are not always fair or appropriate.

 

Tell me about it...I had a player in 250pt game who decided his character was a "barbarian" and put almost all his points into STR, DEX and PD. End result was a STR:70, Dex:32 monster who literally ruled the battlefield over the more balanced other PCs..and kept putting any XP's he got into DEX! I had to skew the power levels of the villians and even eventually force him to tone down the character because it was ruining the game... :-/

 

Rob

[Rene]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

8-pt combat levels can be used in all kinds of combat. Can come in handy when you're fighting mentalists or magicians, boosts your DECV.

[Beowulf]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Tell me about it...I had a player in 250pt game who decided his character was a "barbarian" and put almost all his points into STR, DEX and PD. End result was a STR:70, Dex:32 monster who literally ruled the battlefield over the more balanced other PCs..and kept putting any XP's he got into DEX! I had to skew the power levels of the villians and even eventually force him to tone down the character because it was ruining the game... :-/

 

Rob

Heh, balanced characters work for a reason.

 

Flash the fool, drain his ego till he is making a roll just to drool, transform his puny 15 body self into a frog and toss him into the atmosphere.

 

The rest of the team, the one who goes invisible, the flying EB, the power armor guy with power and flash def wipes up the baddies while Super Gimp goes - FLAME - SPLAT- on reentry.

[Dust Raven]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

DEX vs CLSs... One of my favorite debates (though I'll never win).

 

I think they're about evenly balanced, when looked at overall.

 

DEX +6 costs 12 points (taking SPD into account). Provides +2 OCV/DCV, puts you 6 higher in the initiative order, adds +1 to DEX rolls and DEX Skills and give opponents an extra 18 points to Drain to reduce to you to an uncoordinated mass of twitching meat. However, DEX is subject to Normal Characteristic Maxima if you are using it.

 

CLSs +2 Overall Combat costs 16 points. Provides +2 OCV or DCV or ECV, bounce a ranged attack off up to two surfaces (which in itself could provide an OCV bonus due to surprise), add +1 DC to any attack (a flexibility you simply cannot do with DEX). CLSs are never affected by NCM.

 

To those who play in games where there isn't NCM and doesn't do a lot of bouncing of attacks or adding of DC from levels, DEX is obviously the better of the two, possibly even after NCM (30 points for +6 which give you +2 OCV/DCV simo plus others, compared to CSLs that divide up your +2).

 

To those who play in games where there is NCM, or enforces character concept (why would your rocket scientist/gadgeteer have a 35 DEX again Todd?), and who frequently make use of their other features, CSLs are a great choice, don't inflate the cost of your character, and actually make him a bit more flexible.

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

add +1 DC to any attack (a flexibility you simply cannot do with DEX).

 

If rapid fire is allowable in the campaign, then each +2 OCV is about equal to an additional hit, which is usually far better than +1 DC. At the cost of 1/2 DCV of course.

[Talon]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

The problem with the NCM argument is that it means that the balance only kicks in at DEX 20. Most GMs don't want every PC running around at DEX 20.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

If rapid fire is allowable in the campaign' date=' then each +2 OCV is about equal to an additional hit, which is usually far better than +1 DC. At the cost of 1/2 DCV of course.[/quote']

 

This assumes UNLIMITED rapid fire is available. I believe it is generally recommended to be limited to somne reasonable number of shots. And that +1 DC doesn't cost another round of END. But, within these parameters, the extra shot will be superior in almost all cases from a damage perspective.

 

Of course, the levels don't halve your DCV - hello easy target! And IMC, I restrict defenses based, in part, on DEX/DCV, so that easy target will take a beating.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Yes, 8 pt skill levels are inefficent.

 

They are _really_ worth about 5 pts.

 

5 pt skill levels are worth 4 points.

 

2 and 3 pt skill levels, however, are priced pretty competetively.

 

After all...

 

12 pts = 4 CV, or +6 CV... that's a big differance.

24 pts = 8 CV, or +12 CV... that's 'will never miss' territory.

 

The Three Efficent Characters:

 

Ranged Guy. Uses ECV or Skill Levels to hit, uses RMods for 'free' DCV.

 

The Fast Guy: Has ginormous DEX. Usually a HtoH specialist.

 

The Brick: Low CV, points plowed into STR and DEF instead. Uses automobiles as weapons, hits with as much ease as The Fast Guy, and can shrug off hits much more easily than The Fast Guy.

Sometimes 'The Puncher' - uses 2 or 3 pt skill levels to avoid having to carry around a car. (or rides a motorcycle. )

 

The Inefficent Guys:

The Normal. Thinks Skill Levels are worthwhile; oops.

 

The Inefficency Enablers:

Invisibility, Darkness. Suddenly CV doesn't matter. Entangle can also do this.

 

 

However, it is unfair to limit DEX by concept, *if you force them to take Skill Levels instead*. Among other things, good combatants are more likely to get the drop, and probably ARE more agile (or at least less likely to screw up being agile).

 

I have never had a PC with 8 pt levels (even theoretically), and only a few with 10 pters. 5pters are 'close enough' to efficency to take if house rules give them a bonus (ANY bonus.), as the "I'm not missing" "I'm taking you DOWN" and "TIME TO GET OUT THE DODGE" are nifty options.

 

So, in short, yes, DEX is better than CSLs. However, it is not better than the rest of the system. So let him be fast; don't let him break whatever caps you have, of course.

[Dust Raven]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

If all you're looking at is CV, then there is no question that DEX will beat CSLs, even with NCM.

 

But then, I like shoot high DEX characters from around a corner using a single CSL to bounce the attack and catch them at a disadvantage.

 

To be honest, I rarely use the 8 pointers, and then only if the character has, or expects to go up against Mental Powers (that ECV bonus can be very handy). I'll stick with 5 point Ranged, HTH or "My Weapons" levels, or just use the 2 or 3 pointers. But I use them, and use them well.

[DocMan]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

::making a note to have my mentalist buy ECV skill levels::

 

Thanks for the idea.

 

Doc

[BNakagawa]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Two martial artists face eachother. A has a dex 23 and no levels. B has a dex of 10 and 8 levels in his martial art and one 2 pointer with martial block.

 

They both have the same speed.

 

First phase, A has the initiative and strikes. B aborts to (martial)block and does so with an adjusted OCV of 14. That's a 17- chance, less whatever bonus A's maneuver gives him (if any)

 

Second phase, B has the initiative thanks to the block and rolls over into offense. B has an OCV of 11+ whatever the maneuver gives him. A has a DCV of 8+ whatever the maneuver gives him.

 

A has basically no say in the outcome of this battle. All of the cards are held by B. If B wants the fight to go long, he can play defensively and cancel out anything A throws at him. If B wants to go offensive, then A will have to abort to defensive maneuvers or they will trade blows.

 

Assuming you aren't buying 8 point levels (and 5 pointers to a lesser extent) then levels are plenty cost effective provided you know what to do with them.

 

It should be noted that in the above example, the DEX based character was placed at a sweet spot and the level based character left at a sour spot for CVs. Bump the level based character one point of dex and cut the 2 point level and the discrepancy is even greater.

 

$0.02

[Gary]

Re: DEX vs. CSLs

 

Two martial artists face eachother. A has a dex 23 and no levels. B has a dex of 10 and 8 levels in his martial art and one 2 pointer with martial block.

 

They both have the same speed.

 

First phase, A has the initiative and strikes. B aborts to (martial)block and does so with an adjusted OCV of 14. That's a 17- chance, less whatever bonus A's maneuver gives him (if any)

 

Second phase, B has the initiative thanks to the block and rolls over into offense. B has an OCV of 11+ whatever the maneuver gives him. A has a DCV of 8+ whatever the maneuver gives him.

 

A has basically no say in the outcome of this battle. All of the cards are held by B. If B wants the fight to go long, he can play defensively and cancel out anything A throws at him. If B wants to go offensive, then A will have to abort to defensive maneuvers or they will trade blows.

 

Assuming you aren't buying 8 point levels (and 5 pointers to a lesser extent) then levels are plenty cost effective provided you know what to do with them.

 

It should be noted that in the above example, the DEX based character was placed at a sweet spot and the level based character left at a sour spot for CVs. Bump the level based character one point of dex and cut the 2 point level and the discrepancy is even greater.

 

$0.02

 

Of course the CSL dude in your example is optimized to fight one single opponent. The Dex guy is much better overall, especially when facing multiple foes. Especially if they have a mix of range and hth attacks.

 

6 agents with dex 14, 3 with range attacks and 3 with hth attacks, will crush B, but will most likely lose to A.