Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

[zakueins]

I know it's not on the schedule yet, but PRIMUS is going to get it's source book eventually. So, what would you want to see in PRIMUS for Champions?

 

My list is short, but very good-

1)The writer has to have a better handle on how Federal Law Enforcement would handle the superhuman world. The style of how law enforcement in the CHAMPIONS! universe has handled stuff has been...erratic at times. For example, after Detroit, PRIMUS would have had it's ass handed on a platter-or it's funding tripled. Bringing in UNTIL (esp. considering that a lot of people don't trust the UN in our world and I suspect in the CU as well) would be a major insult to a lot of people. For a "four color" comic, you can get away with it, but for the more "realistic" croud you need more details.

2)Steal the entire tactics chapter from GURPS SWAT and put it in the book, pictures an all. Having an idea how PRIMUS would handle everything from barricaded suspects to the Grand VIPER Nest Assault would be very useful.

3)Better gear. I personally suspect that what would be considered "PRIMUS Standard" in the '80s is what's being used by American troops in the field now. PRIMUS is going to have the very neat toys.

4)Military supers and doctrine. The CIA would love any telepaths that had the ability to do remote viewing. Serious consideration about superhumans, the first early combat Powered Armor in American use, etc, etc, etc.

5)TWO Superhuman teams for PRIMUS. I'm willing to contribute my Special Circumstances team for "black bag jobs" and such, and there has to be a "show the flag" team for PR purposes.

6)The Golden/Silver Avenger structure-I suspect there would be nine or ten Golden Avengers (one for each Federal District Court), with some extras for cities with serious problems (SF, LA, New York, Millenium City...).

 

Any more?

[devlin1]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

Isn't Shelley writing this book, like, as I type?

 

And if she isn't, it's because it's already written, right?

 

Right?

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

Isn't Shelley writing this book, like, as I type?

 

And if she isn't, it's because it's already written, right?

 

Right?

 

No offense to Shelly... and I mean that... but I certainly hope not. I mean, her vision of PRIMUS was fine for her campaign. But note the presence of the words her campaign. As in "does not fit at all into my campaign because it was too specific to hers."

 

A less campaign-specific PRIMUS would be much better, and would certainly fit better into the more generic CU5 that Steve Long seems to be building.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

Worldmaker - Primus will probably be partially campaign-specific, as it'll be linked to the CU. But I'd just recommend to do what I do: adapt what you need to your campaign My UNTIL and Viper aren't exactly like they are in the book (but then I also don't run in the CU exactly)

 

As for Shelly writing the book - I don't think anyone else could write it as well as she could I've always found her info on Primus to be interesting and useful. Though I would also imagine Steve would work on it a bit as well (as he does with most FRED books).

 

I also believe there is only one Golden Avenger ... with a handful of Silver Avengers under him.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

Worldmaker - Primus will probably be partially campaign-specific' date=' as it'll be linked to the CU. But I'd just recommend to do what I do: adapt what you need to your campaign My UNTIL and Viper aren't exactly like they are in the book (but then I also don't run in the CU exactly) [/quote']

 

Yes, but its a difference of degrees. The CU is much more generic than Shelly's campaign world, and thus easier to convert. Her presentation of PRIMUS was well-done, but it still had the footprints of her personal campaign all over it.

 

 

 

As for Shelly writing the book - I don't think anyone else could write it as well as she could I've always found her info on Primus to be interesting and useful. Though I would also imagine Steve would work on it a bit as well (as he does with most FRED books).

 

She's a talented writer to be sure, and I am not saying otherwise. I am saying, however, that she needed to make it more a CU book and less a "Shelly's World" book, and in that her original text failed.

[zakueins]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

Very much so. I've seen Shelly's work, and it's good, but VERY campaign-specific. A PRIMUS book needs to be a bit more generic, with enough space to run "PRIMUS is competent" to "PRIMUS makes the BATF look normal, without trying".

 

(The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms has a...reputation as a bunch of testosterone-fulled cowboys in the Real World.)

 

Yes, but its a difference of degrees. The CU is much more generic than Shelly's campaign world, and thus easier to convert. Her presentation of PRIMUS was well-done, but it still had the footprints of her personal campaign all over it.

 

 

 

 

 

She's a talented writer to be sure, and I am not saying otherwise. I am saying, however, that she needed to make it more a CU book and less a "Shelly's World" book, and in that her original text failed.

[lemming]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

IIRC, Shelley has a couple other projects to take care of before Primus.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

IIRC' date=' Shelley has a couple other projects to take care of before Primus.[/quote']

 

Yeah, like law school.

[wcw43921]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

I move for the return of the Iron Guard, with (in addition to their regular powered armor) mission-specific armors for space, undersea, heavy weapons, etc.

 

Also, they should have a commandant named the Iron Avenger. (Appropriate, don't you think?)

[zakueins]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

The Iron Guard will be very competent, IMHO, if I have anything to say about it.

 

Actually, my concept is to create a "powered armor command" similar to the Special Forces Command that now exists-each branch runs a particular sub-model of a standard powered battle armor, and PRIMUS' model is designed to be the "urban fighter" version.

 

I move for the return of the Iron Guard, with (in addition to their regular powered armor) mission-specific armors for space, undersea, heavy weapons, etc.

 

Also, they should have a commandant named the Iron Avenger. (Appropriate, don't you think?)

[Chuckg]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

I'd like to mine one little bit from Shelley's PRIMUS. The bit about the Cyberline serum actually being genetic material from a mildly superstrong and invulnerable metahuman.

 

But instead of going all Iron Age and having it be from a murdered gay Communist from the Bronx, instead, have the DNA come from a willing donor. Somebody who was so patriotic that even after his powers faded, even after his death, he wanted to know that a piece of his legacy would live on in as many other American super-soldiers as possible, and be out there protecting people and saving the innocent.

 

Captain Patriot.

 

That would be a nice tribute, wouldn't it?

[Peregrine]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

I'd like to mine one little bit from Shelley's PRIMUS. The bit about the Cyberline serum actually being genetic material from a mildly superstrong and invulnerable metahuman.

 

But instead of going all Iron Age and having it be from a murdered gay Communist from the Bronx, instead, have the DNA come from a willing donor. Somebody who was so patriotic that even after his powers faded, even after his death, he wanted to know that a piece of his legacy would live on in as many other American super-soldiers as possible, and be out there protecting people and saving the innocent.

 

Captain Patriot.

 

That would be a nice tribute, wouldn't it?

The nature of the Cyberline serum was one of my favorite bits from Shelley's PRIMUS, though I share the distaste for the origin. Your suggested tribute is a nice one.

 

I also like the idea that the Cyberline treatment is not a static product, but is regularly undergoing reevaluation, fine-tuning, and 'improvement'. You can Iron Age that easily, if that's your taste, and have failed test subjects as villains and/or monsters, or you can Silver/Bronze Age it and have a single character who's origin is that of having been the sole recipient of 'Cyberline II', which, while it didn't work quite as expected, gave the character powers at a later time. (That's a modified version of the origin for one of my stable of unplayed characters.)

[zakueins]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

My concept of Cyberline is that there's four "standard" versions of Cyberline, all derived from the early-50's Super Soldier programs and refined over the years. These versions are-

 

Cyberline Alpha-The "Golden Avenger" version, which is the "true" version of Cyberline. It's the entire "super soldier" drug series, with the final series of drugs being known to only a small handfull of people (whom don't know the ENTIRE formula-like Coke, no one person can reproduce it).

 

Two oddities of Alpha is that it only works on men and it's permanant-without a stabilizing dose every six months, Alphas "merely" become Beta-level.

 

Cyberline Beta-The "Silver Avenger" version. Not as complete as Alpha, but Beta can be given to a much larger pool of the population. A "stabilizing dose" is needed every six months, else the recruit loses the abilities.

 

Cyberline Delta-The "soldier" version, it might be considered more of an augment to PRIMUS training and physical conditioning. It compares "favorably" to the VIPER equivilant, but it's a little more potent (and much safer to the users). Delta doesn't require stabilizing doses, but it can be easily detected in the bloodstream with a simple test.

 

Cyberline Epsilon-There is no Cyberline Epislon.

Fnord.

(Actually, there is but it's only given to (and works on) mutants with mentalist powers. Epsilon augments their abilities, and requires a stabilizing dose every six months, like Beta.)

 

"Experimental Cyberline" is a good Villian and Hero origin, too.

 

The nature of the Cyberline serum was one of my favorite bits from Shelley's PRIMUS, though I share the distaste for the origin. Your suggested tribute is a nice one.

 

I also like the idea that the Cyberline treatment is not a static product, but is regularly undergoing reevaluation, fine-tuning, and 'improvement'. You can Iron Age that easily, if that's your taste, and have failed test subjects as villains and/or monsters, or you can Silver/Bronze Age it and have a single character who's origin is that of having been the sole recipient of 'Cyberline II', which, while it didn't work quite as expected, gave the character powers at a later time. (That's a modified version of the origin for one of my stable of unplayed characters.)

[ShelleyCM]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

Yeah' date=' like law school.[/quote']

 

Well, sure. And Regency HERO -- I'm working on that draft currently.

 

And I can't resist: while I did steal a little from my campaign, a lot of was critiqued as "campaign specific" was stuff I created wholecloth for PRIMUS; I couldn't stand the idea of making an agency that didn't have backstory, with relationships between the characters, rivalries, friendships, etc. I hate sterile sourcebooks.

 

-Shelley

[Jhamin]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

I think that some people may have looked at lots of proper names & specific places, then assumed they were from the Author's campaign.

 

If you substitue the Champions and a few other character from the Champs U for the heros mentioned in the book, and it converts really well.

 

I for one thought Shelly made some really great choices in updating PRIMUS.

I really enjoyed that the E-Book equated PRIMUS with the FBI, CIA & ATF. It seems really obvious now, but it was an enormous step toward the real world at the time.

Killing off the old Golden Avenger and replacing him with a clean-cut all-American ture-believer was also a good move. It made it possible for longtime players to accept the notion of PRIMUS as the good guys.

 

 

If I could make a request for the revision, it would be to tone down the uniforms. Maybe gussy up and slim down some SWAT uniforms, but keep the overall theme. I would also lose the bright blue and silver. Maybe a dark blue and/or grey theme?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

I wanna see the Golden Avenger be actually built on a decent point total. No more of this "All the NPC heroes get built on 500 or less" BS.

 

( yes, I know there are exceptions, but I'd really like to see some heroes that wouldn't automatically die the first phase if they encounter a megavillain without a team and/or army behind them )

[ShelleyCM]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

I wanna see the Golden Avenger be actually built on a decent point total. No more of this "All the NPC heroes get built on 500 or less" BS.

 

I love it! MP, you're a gamer after my own heart.

 

-Shelley

[zakueins]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

Golden Avenger(s) should be built on a 1000 pt total, Silver Avengers at the 750 pts level.

 

These are supposed to be THE best of the best. One-on-one, Golden Avenger should be able to take down a lot of metavillans on the Fiacho/Graviton/Viper-X level, and with teamwork should worry even Gravitar and the Crowns of Krim.

 

I wanna see the Golden Avenger be actually built on a decent point total. No more of this "All the NPC heroes get built on 500 or less" BS.

 

( yes, I know there are exceptions, but I'd really like to see some heroes that wouldn't automatically die the first phase if they encounter a megavillain without a team and/or army behind them )

[Sketchpad]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

I'd rather see GA around the 750 pt area and the SAs around the 300 pt range, just shy of being full-fledged superheroes.

On the uniforms ... I think I'd rather see something akin to a SHIELD or Checkmate uniforms, with certain add-ons as mission requires. I've never seen Primus as diverse as UNTIL (which is played like SHIELD in my campaign), bur rather like the DEO ran by the Ultimate Captain America

I would also like to see package treatments for the SAs though ... I've been thinking of placing one as a NPC liason in my group's team

[Vorsch]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

I thought the GA and SAs were meant to be low powered agile bricks ( a bit like spiderman without the clinging and danger sense), who had to use teamwork and gadgets to compete with "real" supers.

 

GA 500pts + 80pt gadget pool Str 60 dex 35 spd 8 def 30 (alot of skills 150pts)

SA 325pts + 60pt gadget pool Str 50 dex 30 spd 6 def 25 (good skills 50pts)

 

If these guys could take the megavilains and theres alot of them 100+ then they would kinda outshine PCs.

 

I do agree most NPC heroes are a bit weak.

 

Just my take on them.

[ShelleyCM]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

 

If these guys could take the megavilains and theres alot of them 100+ then they would kinda outshine PCs.

 

Yep -- and that's a great way to make the PCs hate PRIMUS, fast. But I don't think there should be more than around 15 or so. For one thing, it would be too expensive; for another, there needs to be a novelty factor.

 

-Shelley

[Vorsch]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

In marvel wasent there some sort of low level Brick treatment, it created USAgent Falcon, D-man, and some WWF type wrestlers probabily many others. They were in the str 40-50 range enhanced con dex spd but no real powers, not even bullitproof.

 

Thats just the way the SAs come across to me, as to being around 15 of them i just assumed each major city/state would have a presence of at least one SA, and dont they have a training academy?

 

So how many should there be. Ill go for 100 as they are a Superagency not a large Superteam. anyone else?

 

And The GA should definately be a good guy, if for no other reason i dont want 15+ 750pt SAs coming after me when i annoy the GA.

[zakueins]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

PRIMUS handles the entire United States. They need, at minimum, a serious presense, especially in areas where they might be the only counter to high-level supervillians and organized supergroups. Unlike most superteams, they have the funding and the access to the pool of recruits to generate a large enough team of supers.

 

Which is why I thought there'd be a Golden Avenger for every Federal District Court (http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDCTS/), and anywhere with a "major" presense should have more than one (New York would have at least one more, as well as Washington DC, Millenium City, Los Angeles, etc, etc). It should be an indication of "how bad things get" when you see more than one Golden Avenger handling a problem.

 

And, the Golden Avengers are only human-they won't be dealing with every Tom, Dick, and Harry crime if there are "locals" that can do the job as well. Think of it more as the difference between a FBI Special Agent and the local cops. The super bank robbery is local-when Eurostar stages a heist, that's when PRIMUS gets called in.

 

Yep -- and that's a great way to make the PCs hate PRIMUS, fast. But I don't think there should be more than around 15 or so. For one thing, it would be too expensive; for another, there needs to be a novelty factor.

 

-Shelley

[ShelleyCM]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

Which is why I thought there'd be a Golden Avenger for every Federal District Court (http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDCTS/), and anywhere with a "major" presense should have more than one (New York would have at least one more, as well as Washington DC, Millenium City, Los Angeles, etc, etc). It should be an indication of "how bad things get" when you see more than one Golden Avenger handling a problem.

 

Silver Avengers are the local guys (although I chuckle at distributing them along federal courts -- I can just see Silver Avengers PO'ed that they're stuck watching oral arguments); there's only one GA. There isn't a major power difference, esp. when you factor in equipment.

 

-Shelley

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Things We'd Like To See:PRIMUS

 

One of the things that I've never felt entirely comfortable about with PRIMUS is the fact that the agents that are more "in tune" with Cyberline (ie Silver Avengers) are all conveniently able leaders, etc. PRIMUS' manpower is drawn from "the best of the best", granted, but it seems a little too easy. I'd like to see a couple of things regarding this - either one or several:

 

1) Perhaps explanation that not all who are physically able to get the full SA treatment get it, for other reasons (don't have the "full package" including leadership, etc.). Perhaps some of these folks would be a good basis for the oft-considered "Bronze Avengers" - power level of SA, but aren't base leaders, etc.

 

2) Have some SA's as leaders, others as just superpowered field agents, depending on their individual abilities. Some folks make great corporals, but lousy captains.

 

3) Explain the SA process a bit further - aside from Cyberline treatments, the other training they get, like PRIMUS' condensed version of West Point/Annapolis/etc.