Detect

[Richard Logue]

Can Detect be use to sense abstract concepts? Is there a Detect Evil, for instance? Detect Health?

 

Richard

[BNakagawa]

At the 10 point level you can detect abstract objects or phenomena.

 

Since Detect Life Energy is given as an example, there's your Detect Health.

 

As for detect evil, there's an entire thread from the old board on this subject.

 

My take is no. You can't detect evil because you can't define evil objectively.

 

Of course, if you're playing in a game where EVIL has concrete properties (e.g. can pick up this magic book without suffering damage) then in that context, you could detect evil.

 

More often evil is merely a label for properties you find disagreeable.

 

$0.02

[GamePhil]

On the other hand, you might be able to have a Detect Evil where Evil is defined by a character's subjective criteria, even if it has no objective reality.

[Wormhole]

My take is no. You can't detect evil because you can't define evil objectively.

 

How about Detect Noble/Ignoble intentions?

[Zaratustra]

How about Detect Noble/Ignoble intentions?

 

That would work, except you'd start getting players that kill people because they have evil thoughts. And villains that really believe they're out to save mankind (You must destroy to rebuild!) would not register. Hmm. Could be fun.

[Tech]

I disagree with BNakagawa's take on Detect Evil. Evil is definably objective. To say evil is not definable means good cannot be definable either. The attack on Sept 11 was definitely evil. Regardless, if your GM says it's you can buy it, go for it. Someone who can detect an evil presence is quite common, whether comic books, fantasy books or whatever else.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Tech

I disagree with BNakagawa's take on Detect Evil. Evil is definably objective. To say evil is not definable means good cannot be definable either. The attack on Sept 11 was definitely evil. Regardless, if your GM says it's you can buy it, go for it. Someone who can detect an evil presence is quite common, whether comic books, fantasy books or whatever else.

 

Not wanting to get into a 9/11 debate, my opinion is there are two points of view when defining "evil."

 

There is your 4 color comic book setting, in which case "evil" within that genre I feel, could be strictly defined. The violent destruction of any building would be evil. This also works well for Pulp games.

 

But if you're playing a more 'realistic' setting like Danger International, then "evil" becomes more subjective. I don't think in this sort of setting you could have a 'universal' defenition of evil. But for the purposes of Detect, the player/character could certainly list their criteria for evil. My Detect Evil may not detect the same things as your Detect Evil, although the power is the same.

 

Aroooo

[Tech]

Sounds good Aroooo (counts the o's). Buy it as your concept fits. By the way, why'd you pick Aroooo (count's the o's again)? I kinda like it. Gotta werewolf character somewhere? Or is it... YOU'RE a werewolf?!

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Tech

Sounds good Aroooo (counts the o's). Buy it as your concept fits. By the way, why'd you pick Aroooo (count's the o's again)? I kinda like it. Gotta werewolf character somewhere? Or is it... YOU'RE a werewolf?!

 

Won't go OT for too long, but it came from a fantasy game many many years ago. My character was a werewolf, unbeknownst to the rest of the party. We had to assasinate a Noble one day, and it went horribly wrong. We were getting our butts chewed. The party was trapped in a stair well up to the noble's room, door locked, guards coming, when I changed! I was out of site when it happened; got knocked out before we entered the castle. I managed to retain enough control over 'self' to finish the assignment, so I charged up the stairs, through the guards, and through the player party, crushing someone's chest (I stepped on them) in the process. Just before that happened, one of the players saw me coming, ran back up the stairs to the locked door, yelling for everyone to get out of the way, banging insanely on the door. The PC's asked (yelled) what was the problem, and all Jim could say was "You don't want to know!" Ever since then Aroooo (4 of them ) has been my tag line.

 

Aroooo

(Werewolf? There wolf. There castle.)

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Tech

I disagree with BNakagawa's take on Detect Evil. Evil is definably objective. To say evil is not definable means good cannot be definable either. The attack on Sept 11 was definitely evil. Regardless, if your GM says it's you can buy it, go for it. Someone who can detect an evil presence is quite common, whether comic books, fantasy books or whatever else.

 

OK, define EVIL objectively. Keep in mind that in order to be objective, all parties observing the same thing with this definition all have to agree on the thing being evil or not.

 

I can tell you now that there are millions of people who do not believe that the 9/11 attack was an evil act.

 

Good luck.

[BNakagawa]

What you CAN do with detect Evil.

 

As long as you recognize that any definition of EVIL involves a certain agenda, then you can define Evil clearly enough to allow use of a detect.

 

If your detection of evil was based on a christian oriented power base, then you could define evil as presence or influence of a demonic or diabolic power. Or you could even define it as someone who willingly broke some number of commandments. Or someone who rejected God. Or whatever, as long as it was quantifiable by the GM.

 

In order for detect to work, the GM has to know beforehand whether or not the target would or would not register as whatever you're trying to detect. If your detect is subjectively defined, then there's always going to be disagreements over whether this borderline case would or would not work.

 

the last thing this game needs is for there to be in-game arguments over whether or not this or that is this or that.

 

$0.02

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Tech

I disagree with BNakagawa's take on Detect Evil. Evil is definably objective. To say evil is not definable means good cannot be definable either. The attack on Sept 11 was definitely evil. Regardless, if your GM says it's you can buy it, go for it. Someone who can detect an evil presence is quite common, whether comic books, fantasy books or whatever else.

I don't want to get into a 9/11 debate either, but...

 

The fact that there were people in other countries who danced in the streets at the news of the attacks shows that even that reprehensible act is not universally seen as evil. I am not suggesting that any of us revise our thinking about 9/11 or the meaning of evil. I'm only pointing out that it is subjective. Subjective doesn't mean wrong, it just means (among other things) "not objective."

 

And GamePhil raises and excellent point about a list of specific criteria which, while arrived at subjectively, could still be objectively "Detected" for. Of course you'd have to keep that list short and simple, otherwise it'd bog the game down.

[Richard Logue]

What about something so abstract in game, that its out of game?

 

For instance, can a character build a Detect Stun to be able to determine if his opponent is about to go down in the fight or not? Granted, he would probably also have to have Discriminatory and Analyze to be able to know the exact numbers involved.

 

But do you think Detect (Game Mechanic) is beyond the realm of what Detect can or is supposed to do? As an example, a computerized device at a super-prison, might be able to Detect Power (Discriminatory, Analyze) to determine exactly what a convict's powers are and how they work (in game mechanics terms) to be able to customize his cell to properly incarcerate him.

 

Richard

[Zaratustra]

Nothing is beyond the power of Detect! Nothing! Can you hear me? Mwaa haa haa haa haa!

 

But still, good luck explaining it to the GM. Detect Stun might be simply a good judgement of how much the enemy will take before falling (useful if you're a boxer) or, of course, magic. In case of problematic SFX, use Magic. A super-computer might analyze a character's powers via DNA analysis, but it'd flinch with magic users or aliens.

 

Now, the most useful Detect, which most characters have (or wish they had) is Detect Female Character Played By Male Player. Thank you, I'll be here all week.

[Vondy]

Re: Detect

 

Originally posted by Richard Logue

Can Detect be use to sense abstract concepts? Is there a Detect Evil, for instance? Detect Health?

 

Richard

 

This is one of those GM approval type of things.

 

I have allowed Detect, Emotions in heroic level games, where mental defense makes it more difficult, and characters who know their dealing with an Empath can enter an Ego contest to submerge their emotions.

 

It works well so long as the Player and The Game Master know how its intended to work up front.

[Dust Raven]

I guess I'll drop in my vote for the most quoted reply...

Originally posted by Tech

I disagree with BNakagawa's take on Detect Evil. Evil is definably objective. To say evil is not definable means good cannot be definable either. The attack on Sept 11 was definitely evil. Regardless, if your GM says it's you can buy it, go for it. Someone who can detect an evil presence is quite common, whether comic books, fantasy books or whatever else.

 

First, for everybody trying not to mention 9/11, those people dancing in the streets are far from objective observers. On the same hand, neither are any Americans.

 

This overwhelming lack of objective observers helps to back up the theory that evil can't be defined. And yes, this does mean that good can't be defined either. I think chocolate is good, but those unfortunate enough to be alergic to it might dissagree and call it evil (mainly because almost everybody alergic to it also crave it).

 

Fantasy games, golden age superheros and such things are diferent is that they are works of fiction. In a work of fiction, anything is possible, including a universal definition of good and evil.

[Bazza]

I'm another who doesn't want to mention 9/11, nor do I want to mention the Holocaust or the Albigensian Crusade. To me individual people have different interpretations of "good," "evil" and "benefit of mankind." It is one of those facts of life things (something else to detect? ).

 

I'd agree with a previous poster(s) who have said it revolves around genre conventions eg. in an Elric & Stormbringer game "evil" or "chaos" is definable and hense detectable.

 

One abstract that no one else has brought up yet -- Detect Love. What is "love" and how could you detect it?

 

What about "reality"? Is it worth having a Detect Reality? (If so how many points? )

[trechriron]

Suggestions of creating an “objective†list for a subjective concept is just the kind of philosophical conundrum that could unwrap the fabric of space/time!!

 

I am currently running a Star Wars Hero game (starts in January actually as the holidays and prep work are delaying the game) and I posted to the boards on creating a Dark Side convention in Hero. The responses were plentiful and I decided on a combination of ideas. It involves a Transform and accumulation of dark side “points†that directly translate into psychological and physiological disadvantages. The other side effect is the ability to be detected as tainted or corrupted by the dark side. The accumulated Dark Side “points†only fade with proper atonement and counter-balancing acts of extraordinary good.

 

The most important concept here is not defining a subjective concept in game terms. The subjective concept of good and evil could complicate a game, especially if your setting is based on a more literary or fictional outlook. Unless your game revolves around intense subjective moral quandaries, it is unnecessary. The only hope of quantifying the subjective concept of evil in a game with no definable game mechanics is to simply reward roleplaying and creativity revolving around the supposedly evil act/situation/person. I think what most gamers want (and what Richard was looking for) is to define a quantifiable objective literary representation of the subjective concept.

 

Is there a supernatural or esoteric yet definable/detectable aspect of good and evil in your setting?

 

If the answer to that question is yes, you need to invent that tangible aspect in game terms, define the boundaries for it so the players can adopt the paradigm into their playing style, and then outline it’s effects.

 

The Star Wars setting defines some particular behaviors that lead someone down the path of the Dark Side. By listing some of the more common behaviors and situations sure to crop up in a game, I help disclose these concepts with defined mechanical impact for the players. They know what to expect when they do something “wrong†as defined by the setting. This is a convention of the setting, not necessarily a representation of real world ethics or subjective definitions. If your setting includes definable concepts of good and evil, and people can be detected as having some sort of supernatural alliance towards it, then you should define a mechanical convention that represents that concept.

 

Presence attacks represent fear and insanity in a numerical context, why not define good and evil under a similar paradigm? It could be argued that any emotion or mental outlook is a subjective concept yet the Presence convention is a good example of defining the effect objectively and applying a concrete game mechanic to quantify it.

 

You could define a list of evil and good acts, outlooks, and behaviors for your setting. Then decide on what impact you want this good and evil aspect to have on the environment and people. Is it simply a detectable alliance or taint? Does it have temporary or lasting physical or psychological effects? Does it remove or bestow powers or abilities?

 

I would suggest a Transform that accumulates a taint or corruption pertaining to evil acts and potentially for evil disadvantages. So far this concept is working well in the minds of my players, and it is derived from the strong objective paradigm of the Star Wars setting. You can also define objects and places with this evil supernatural taint, that could “attack†the characters and taint them with evil. You should also define a means for evil taint to be removed. The opposite situation can be defined for good. This essentially lets you rate the taint, good or evil, of a character, place, or object on a scale of 0 to infinity. Decide on “thresholds†or accumulations that represent certain benchmarks of evil and good Transformation. If a Presence attack of 45 has a particular impact on a character, then there is no reason an accumulation of 45 points of evil Transform could not have a definable impact/effect as well. At this point it is more than fair to allow a detect evil or good based on the accumulation of Transform of the target.

 

Is this a concept that works across every game/setting of Hero? Nope. There is no need to establish a common implementation of this idea, as different GMs may wish to represent this concept in a myriad of different ways within different games. Hero is a toolkit. You need to know what you’re building before the tools will be of any real use to you (IMO).

 

Hope my excessive diatribe conveyed at least something of my two cents,

[austenandrews]

If the GM allows it, you can Detect anything you can think of, abstract or not. It's one of those catch-all powers.

 

-AA

[Mark Taylor]

On defining evil

 

As a few posters have said, the definition of evil depends heavily upon the genre and setting. I gave a great deal of thought to this topic for a fantasy campaign some time ago, and came to the conclusion that high fantasy at least inherits its definition of evil from fairy tales, and that definition revolves around envy. Greed is not sufficient to make one evil (dwarves are greedy). Envy is the key.

 

I would say that in a traditional high fantasy setting, any person who allows envy to be the prime motivating factor on their agenda is 'evil'. Anybody who can rise above envy completely and not allow it to dictate their actions at all is 'good'. Everybody else, those people who sometimes succumb to envy and sometimes rise above it, is somewhere inbetween, and may eventually choose one side or the other. That pretty much sums up the recurring basis of the good / evil dichotomy in most fantasy fiction I have read.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Richard Logue

What about something so abstract in game, that its out of game?

 

For instance, can a character build a Detect Stun to be able to determine if his opponent is about to go down in the fight or not? Granted, he would probably also have to have Discriminatory and Analyze to be able to know the exact numbers involved.

 

But do you think Detect (Game Mechanic) is beyond the realm of what Detect can or is supposed to do? As an example, a computerized device at a super-prison, might be able to Detect Power (Discriminatory, Analyze) to determine exactly what a convict's powers are and how they work (in game mechanics terms) to be able to customize his cell to properly incarcerate him.

 

Richard

 

I'd advise against it. The last thing you want is some weasel getting a detect (power points) sense, discriminatory, analyze) who makes his roll and demands to see your villains' writeups.

 

Or Detect(vulnerability) along with a variable sfx attack. Or detect (susceptibility) and a change environment. etc. etc. etc. Just say no to cheese.

 

$0.02