Dr Divago Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 (Back from the Lurker Limbo...) I've seen Mutant & Mastermind game... In the end... a Superhero rpg with the d20 system... (with cool pictures from Images' authors) My worst nigthmare... ... It's a DARK AGE for True Games.. this make me saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddddddddd (back in the Lurker Limbo) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Actually I looked at it, own it to be precise. If you implement all of the optional rules it looks a bit like Champions. Really! Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? I hear some good things about it. I don't know why it keeps appearing on the Champions part of this board instead of General Role playing, but I hear good things about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlin1 Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Yeah, people seem to like it, especially people who prefer D20. What's the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperPheemy Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Sooooooooo, I take it you're not a fan of the d20 movement? (that's my everyman Deduction at work, baby!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victim Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Not really a dark age when MM is a pretty damn good game. There are other d20 Supers RPGs, but MM is a good one. (Actually, it's not technically d20, but it's compatible enough to make learning easy for d20 players) It seems both better and worse than HERO in some ways. MM is faster for making characters and (maybe) for play. Not too sure about play speed since I know d20 very well, but had to look up tons of stuff when doing HERO. Hero Points and Extra Effort are both good mechanics - extra effort blows pushing or a power skill away. On the other hand, HERO's speed and abort based combat system is sweet. A game like WUSHU let's you describe your character cinematic martial arts - HERO lets your (properly built) character do it. Also, HERO does a good job with special last ditch powers, tiered power sets, and other complicated ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuadha Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Having played M&M, I can assure you that it is an excellent game. It has only a superficial resemblance to d20 and there are even some things that it does better than HERO. However, it is not nearly as fexible as HERO. Personally, I'll probably use it if I ever start a silver age-style superhero game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Divago Posted April 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? I don't know why it keeps appearing on the Champions part of this board instead of General Role playing, Err... do you known when you check your sheet to find "posting on the forum: 17-", you think "i can do it" and roll a "18"? :) Yes, i mean "i fumbled" but I hear good things about it. Oh, i think can be possible i've earned that not ALL d20 system is "bad" but... but... i think ONLY CHAMPIONS (and of course Hero ) can be used for a TRUE superheroic rpg... a d20 superheroic rpg is... well... a true nightmare for me!! (and seems that no one can stop the "d20 invasion"... maybe we can ask someone-with-superpower to help?? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Divago Posted April 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Having played M&M' date=' I can assure you that it is an excellent game. It has only a superficial resemblance to d20 and there are even some things that it does better than HERO. However, it is not nearly as fexible as HERO. Personally, I'll probably use it if I ever start a silver age-style superhero game.[/quote'] Okay okay i'll explain: i'm NOT an enemy of d20; i play D&D, and know other "d20 products" like SWd20 (but i prefere WEG d6 system and i play d6 system) and Fading Suns (italian editor is a friend of mine so i can have gratis the manuals ) but i know that d20 is a system "easy to play" and "complicated" for people that "hate doing complicate things" i actually don't play Hero :( and found nobody who can/want play hero with me :( But i think that a "superheroic rpg" must be extremely flexible, must permits an HUGE amount of "combination" and... a superheroic RPG must permit ALL superpower i want build more simply: i think that Hero is THE ONLY SYSTEM able to play in a superheroic mode Hero is NOT a simple system, however, and only "mature" player and GM can play with Hero, i know i think d20 is perfect system to play D&D. (well, not so perfect if you read my post on italian official D&D forum ). But is a system for D&D. Not for Hero I hope my english is "not so poor", and you can understand what i mean... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? I look at it this way. I buy the stuff I want for Superhero gaming be it Comics, Mutants and Masterminds or whatever and convert to Champions. Voila ! No problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Hero is NOT a simple system, however, and only "mature" player and GM can play with Hero, i know FREd is rather intimidating to first timers. I'd say check out the new Sidekick expansion if you have a few dollars (euros?) to spend. It reminded me hugely of the very first edition of Champions but with the consistancy of 5th ed. rules (i.e. a complete enough system to play.) I think it'd make a great starting place for any group new to the system and still provide them with lots of flexibility in how they designed characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farik Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Personally I love HERO for every genre but Superheroics. I used to love it for Superheroics until I read MnM. I feel it is every bit as flexible as Champions when it comes to emulating Super Comics. The similarities between the two are often stunning. Superheroics may be what made HERO famous but it's real strength is it's truly universal aspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Hero's always done well when there's strong competition. As long as their sales remain at their current level, I don't see a problem. Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? You know, that's what makes this board great. If you go to most boards and bash a competitor's product, everyone will pile on! Here everyone is more than happy to endorse an opposing game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drrushing Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Anything but Champions for a Superheroic game.................blasphemer's, heretic's, cad's...................really now...HERO is probably the most versatile, creative system made. GURPS did a good job, but ultimately was far to abusable, d20 is a great system, I just don't like how it translates into Superheroic's(In ANY form, or subform). If NEW players are having a difficult time, the GM should assist them. HERO is COMPLICATED for the experienced Gamer, it's meant to be that way. I helped a new player with a simple idea, he wanted to be the "Greatest American Hero", I made the character for him, wrote some simple notes about the powers, etc., and let him PLAY the character. A supportive and competant GM will allow the player to learn the system, have fun with the character, and create a fun and memorable experience for all involved. In the end the NEW player, HAD A BLAST........... If your gaming group is a bunch of padawans, then be the Jedi Master...... For all things Superheroic, make mine HERO and CHAMPIONS, nothing compares................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Divago Posted April 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? FREd is rather intimidating to first timers. I'd say check out the new Sidekick expansion if you have a few dollars (euros?) to spend. I'm thinking about... mainly because FREd is not "easily" used for One-Shots session (i've not possibility to "raise" a campaign or even a "little serie of adventures" for Hero... main possibility for me is using "one shot" session... and building with FREd has proven to be TOO MUCH long and slow... I hope that Sidekicks can be quick(er) to play compatible with FREd (so i may use PC created with FREd) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLXC Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? I have M&M and my only real gripe is that it sucks ass for simulating "Super" movement, other than that it seems to be pretty good for Supers gaming, I even play a regular campaign with my daughter in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devlin1 Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? I hope that Sidekicks can be quick(er) to play compatible with FREd (so i may use PC created with FREd) Sidekick and FREd are both rulebooks for the Hero system; both are published by the good people at DOJ/Hero Games. Sidekick was created specifically as a streamlined, beginner-friendly version of the 5th Edition rules. So yeah-- they're compatible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i3ullseye Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Ok, there are 3 game systems I like for supers, and in general. Each ahs their strengths and weaknesses. 1) HERO This is still my favorite game system for ANY Genre. hands down. But I can rarely run or play it as many of my friends are too intimidated by it. I been playing since about '83, and have seen the growth of the system, and even I find frEd to be daunting. and each new book is thicker than the last. now I KNOW they are all just creative uses of the rules in the main book, but it gets unweildly real fast. I wish I had a group that was more willing to tough it out for the first few months and get the hang of it, I KNOW they would be sold. But many of them prefer D20 flavor D&D over anything else. 2) M&M Now this is NOT really a D20 game. It is different enough to actually barely be classified as such, but it does retain alot of the great ideas form that system, like feats. Power construction is simplified HERO, and the mechanics are all a single die, so very streamlined. It doesn't handle speedsters well at all (only HERO handles speedsters well IMO). It is great at power levels 8 thru 13 or so, but any lower for street level and it breaks horribly. Any higher for cosmic supers and everyoen does the same damn things. And even worse than a poorly run HEROs game, everyone will have max Att and max Def and everything will be very blah. But a good and fast system nonetheless. 3) MURPG Diceless? can it be any good? Well, once you give it a shot it is GREAT. The easiest game for a new player, yet the story telling format allows even most veterans to flex their mental muscle with ease. It handles everything quickly and smoothly. And you have the whole Marvel universe, with great NPC stats, to pull from. The only real weakness here is one of poor writing. There are some vague areas, and a LOT is left to itnerpretation. With a good GM this is fine, but with a novice it is a recipe for disaster. Speedsters are NOT very well handled, and some powers do not scale well. You have no minimums for things like Invisibility, and rank 1 is completely effective (M&M suffers from this same problem with many powers). I think the real difference between the three is a matter of granularity. HERO is the most detailed, uses the msot stats, has the most dice, but gives you the best balance and control. MURPG is diceless, compeltely free form, and a real story driven game, with completely loose rules that the GM has to 'make up' as they go. This has its own real benefits, but can leave the GM 'flying blind'. M&M is right in the middle here. NONE of them have random character generation, an idea that is horrible in supers games. But only HERO ensures that no matter what powers and abilities are pciked, the characters are really well balanced against each other. So... own all 3 is my reccommendation. I do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Actually if we are pimpin other gaming systems. I will always be partial to Mayfair's DC Heroes. The only thing it did poorly was it had limited skills, yet you could do lots with the skills you had. And you only need two dice! Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farik Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? you only need two dice! MnM only needs 1 die. (it really is different from what most people think of as "d20") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? Actually if we are pimpin other gaming systems. I will always be partial to Mayfair's DC Heroes. The only thing it did poorly was it had limited skills, yet you could do lots with the skills you had. And you only need two dice! Hawksmoor I hear ya. I barely got to play it (actually I played the even more stripped down Batman RPG that came out right after the first movie), but I liked that system a lot. Too bad it wasn't better implemented in Blood of Heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? MnM only needs 1 die. (it really is different from what most people think of as "d20") Well, in the case of MEGS (Mayfair's system) you roll 2D10 once and that determines both whether you're successful and how successful. (That includes attacks: One roll and you get both success/failure and damage) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? I hear ya. I barely got to play it (actually I played the even more stripped down Batman RPG that came out right after the first movie)' date=' but I liked that system a lot. Too bad it wasn't better implemented in Blood of Heroes.[/quote'] I hear you Blue. Next time someone says drooling fan boys bought the license to the core rules of a beloved system and started to produce their own games I am going to be quite leery. Hawksmoor -once burned twice shy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Re: M&M: this is a Nightmare? (Back from the Lurker Limbo...) I've seen Mutant & Mastermind game... You've seen it, but have you read it? Hardly fair to critique something you haven't read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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