Opinion poll

[nexus]

One thing I have never liked in Hero, but I have never come up with an effective "fix" for is that if you pick up an object and wack someone with it. You do no more damage than you normally do, up to the objects Def+Body. A brick can use a car for a club, but it does no more damage than normal, unlike a normal person using a heavy weighted object (ie A club) unlesss he gets something like HTH OIF:Objects of opportunity.

 

Does anyone else dislike that? And if you do have you come up with fixes?

[Magmarock]

Re: Opinion poll

 

One thing I have never liked in Hero, but I have never come up with an effective "fix" for is that if you pick up an object and wack someone with it. You do no more damage than you normally do, up to the objects Def+Body. A brick can use a car for a club, but it does no more damage than normal, unlike a normal person using a heavy weighted object (ie A club) unlesss he gets something like HTH OIF:Objects of opportunity.

 

Does anyone else dislike that? And if you do have you come up with fixes?

 

I agree with you, Nexus.

 

I think that strength should make some difference. If a human with STR 20 hits a target with a stick, and then a STR 50 brick used that same stick to hit the same target, there should be more damage and the stick should break (if the def isn't enough to absorb the blow). Sort of a one-shot weapon, but more damage because there was more force behind the swing.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Mags

[fbdaury]

Re: Opinion poll

 

Treat it as heroic club weapon- def+body worth of dice added to strength, not to exceed double the normal strength damage for that character. This would make it worthwhile to do something like this, but keep it under control.

[Solomon]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I can understand giving extra damage dice, but I still woudn't exceed DEF-BODY in damage dice. It makes no sense for the Thing or Hulk to just grab any object and attack with it. Their fists are already harder than most substances. The Thing woudn't normally use a stick or club to attack, just as I woudn't use a rolled newspaper; the object woudn't be able to transmit the full force of the blow.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I think that Nexus has a real point. True a Dumpster is less hard than the Hulk or the Thing, but that is not the point. The point is not that an object be durable but that it is *more* damaging to be hit with it.

 

Bricks use objects of opportunity all the time. They disable Helicarriers with a roll of quarters, hurl manhole covers like erormous discusi, and swing greyhound busses at each other. It is genre.

 

Now how to make it a part of the game without paying points. My fix is to add (DEX+BODY/2) in DCs to an attack using a weilded object. These dice are added to swung or thrown items used by the brick. I would like a rule like this because strength tricks are nice *but* experience in HERO is too skimpy to truly expect a Brick to have a VPP or Large MP for every little Trick in his bag.

 

My thoughts.

 

Hawksmoor

[Dust Raven]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I don't like the idea of using the environment as improvisational weapons unless points are paid. Sure, you're paying points for STR, but are already getting more than that in Figured Characteristics alone. Allowing someone to augment their STR with any handy object is just too much.

 

Balance issues asside, it makes sense that super strong character's can't use any ol' object as a club. The difference is similar to that of a club and a handy stick. A club is actually designed to withstand the impact of being used as a weapon. When was the last time you saw a telephone pole like that? Or a dumpster? You can drive your 30 STR Sentra into a dumpster at only 25 mph and dent the heck out of it. Imagine what a brick with 60 STR will do just swinging it around. The rules for max damage being DEF+BODY is there to represent that weapons are weapons and everything else if fragile. That's why a bar stool breaks when you smash someone with it (in the movies at least; actually they hold together quite well in real life and can be used to take down three, maybe for guys before the rest tackle ya ).

 

As for adding damage, it's all a mater of perportion. What would be a +2d6 club in my hands would be a toothpick in Grond's. I'll occasionally allow a few extra dice depending upon how the object is used, but if a player pushes I start using actual weapon rules (didn't pay points to using a Car as a club? You'd better buy WF: Chevy).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I've always felt that the point of using a car or other random miscellaneous object like that, for a brick, was simply to have a way to perform an AE attack or attack at range. I wouldn't give them extra damage unless they paid for it somehow.

[TheEmerged]

Want the power, pay the points

 

I've always felt that the point of using a car or other random miscellaneous object like that' date=' for a brick, was simply to have a way to perform an AE attack or attack at range. I wouldn't give them extra damage unless they paid for it somehow.[/quote']

 

Ye Ditto.

[nexus]

Re: Opinion poll

 

Adding a couple of dice of damage doesn't seem unbalancing, partifularly if the object breaks after one use (The damage done is more than the Def+Body) of the car. Bricks are often portrated using improv weapons on each other or opponents they have no trouble hitting in the force place. Because it seems to hurt their target more thanks to the additional weight of the object.

 

Put in Heroic terms, if I pick up a club object, say a chair or a baseball bat its going to do more damage than my bare fist. If I really strong, it would still do more damage most likely, just because of some extra leverage, etc. A simple rock in my fist will hurt more than my bare fist. Right now, there is very little reason to use improvised weapons particularly at the Heroic level. As sometimes they even impose OCV penalties (don't know if thats a actual rule or something the Gm slapped on me because she was snarky at the time and now I use it).

 

I would make the damage a function of the Def+Body of the object so only the strongest things from being abusive. And the breakage rules. Ironclad hitting Grond with a bus only to have it shatter over his head looks cool.

 

Also its not just bricks. Anyone can pick something up and use it as a weapon, bricks just have more options. But they did pay for the Strength. EB man could try to use Knock and tip something over on his target, the MA coupel improve some a pair of fighting sticks out of some metal pipes laying around a construction site, Jackie Chan style. That sort of thing. Abusive? I guess it could be but you should apply in game consequences for in game action. If your brick is making a habit of using valauable sports cars and priceless statues as improvised clubs, have someone show up with the bill and/or a lawyer, opponents can rig scenes with hidden explosives hidding in the cars he likes to toss around or even crueler tricks (Maybe that bus wasn't as "empty" as it looked...) And most importantly opposing characters can do it to.

 

I don't think most gms would have trouble with a "normal" Str level character getting a couple of extra dice damage from using a bat or a peice of pipe as an improv weapon a few times. If they wanted to carry around something or have it available all the time with almost no consquences then they'd have to pay points for it though in a Superheroic game. High Strength just gives you more options for improv IMO.

[Arthur]

Re: Opinion poll

 

There should be a bonus to damage, with a limit of (DEF+BODY)d6. If you look at the stats for clubs, they do more than ((STR Min)/5)d6, as they should. Therefore, they do more damage than bare hands (duh). The larger the club, the more efficient it is at increasing damage. Again, pretty logical.

 

That doesn't lend itself well to a general rule for improvised clubs, however. What do we do? Come up with a STR Min and damage rating for every possible item?

 

This has to be done on the fly. I would say in most superheroic games, an improvised club would do anywhere from +2d to +4d N. As someone pointed out, a lot of items wouldn't have that high of a DEF+BODY, and that would limit their maximum. However, you can't count on that happening every time. What if it the item is a steel girder? What if it's part of a supervillain's lair in construction, and the girder is made of that indestructible wonder metal - balonium?

 

Is it unbalancing because STR is already too good for its points? Yeah. However, the cost of STR wasn't set at x2 (or at least x1.5) like it should have been - that's no reason to ignore realism AND genre conventions.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Opinion poll

 

The thing is, Arthur, I'm not sure the present HERO way violates genre conventions. I've seen a number of fights between evenly-matched foes in comic-books that turn into bus-swinging melees, and rarely does the Thing smashing the Hulk with a car (or vice versa) seem to generate much more damage than a bare-knuckle bashing.

[nexus]

Re: Opinion poll

 

The thing is' date=' Arthur, I'm not sure the present HERO way violates genre conventions. I've seen a number of fights between evenly-matched foes in comic-books that turn into bus-swinging melees, and rarely does the Thing smashing the Hulk with a car (or vice versa) seem to generate much more damage than a bare-knuckle bashing.[/quote']

 

Well, I'm not arguing for a huge increase in damage personally. just some increase. I mean otherwise there is no incentive to use a big weapon. Two bricks don't typically have trouble connecting with each other with their bare hands. And why would a "hero" cause so much property damage just to look impressive?

[Magmarock]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I don't think the issue here is "added dice to damage". We all agree that an object used as a weapon adds ddamage dice to a lesser strength character.

 

The issue is the limit of max damage allowed by a given object used as a weapon, when used by a stronger character (i.e. brick).

 

I think that it is right that if the damage exceeds the DEF & Body of the object, that the object should be destroyed. And if the damage exceeds the DEF but not the body, the object should be broken to some degree. What I don't agree with is that, no matter how strong the wielder, the damage maxes out.

 

To use the rolled up newspaper analogy: if Grond were to hit someone with that, it would hurt a hell of a lot more than being hit by a normal person wielding the same newspaper. Sure, the paper would disintegrate after the one hit, but still... think about it. Acquiring any object to use as a weapon should take time (i.e. actions or partial actions), so there is some balance, I believe.

 

And I just thought of this: if the weapon/object in question does more damage to the target, enough to break (or break thru) the target, should the weapon take the full brunt of the damage? Applying the same prinicples as a move thru, shouldn't the damage be halved? Oh wait, that's only STUN, isn't it? Hmmmm.

 

Aw well. It's something to think about.

 

Mags

[drrushing]

Collateral Damage

 

I liked all the ideas presented, but aren't a few things being overlooked. If you're the GM, you decide what's appropriate, and, unless it's a REALLY big threat in front of the Hero, is he/she/it going to pay for all the damage they cause by using their environment as a weapon? Just a random game play thought

[Supreme]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I don't think that the DEF+BODY in dice should be exceeded. Hit something with a hammer as hard as you can. Now hit it with a dowel of balsa wood. 'nuff said.

[Korvar]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I don't think that the DEF+BODY in dice should be exceeded. Hit something with a hammer as hard as you can. Now hit it with a dowel of balsa wood. 'nuff said.

 

A straw in a hurricane can penetrate a tree... or so 'tis said.

 

Not entirely sure that's a counter-arguement, but I think it had to be said anyway

[Pegasus]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I don't think that the DEF+BODY in dice should be exceeded. Hit something with a hammer as hard as you can. Now hit it with a dowel of balsa wood. 'nuff said.

 

Well, I tried this, but once I hit the guy with the hammer he just started screaming and ran away. I can't get close enough to him to complete the experiment. Some people just have no interest in science.

[Tech]

Re: Opinion poll

 

I'll occasionally allow a few extra dice depending upon how the object is used' date=' but if a player pushes I start using actual weapon rules (didn't pay points to using a Car as a club? You'd better buy WF: Chevy).[/quote']

How many points would that WF: Chevy cost?

[Korvar]

Re: Opinion poll

 

How many points would that WF: Chevy cost?

 

I point for WF: Chevy. 2 for WF: Small Ground Vehicles...

[austenandrews]

Re: Opinion poll

 

The thing is, sometimes impromptu weapons help to hit - thrown objects hit at range, telephone poles have an extra reach element, buses are AE attacks - and other times they seem to dish out more damage or Knockback. The advantages of the former are obvious. but I'm not sure how the latter would differ from, say, a Haymaker. I absolutely think extra damage is in order, though. I'm just not sure what rule to use for it.

 

-AA

[devlin1]

Re: Opinion poll

 

Well' date=' I tried this, but once I hit the guy with the hammer he just started screaming and ran away. I can't get close enough to him to complete the experiment. Some people just have no interest in science. [/quote']

Hit him with the dowel first!

[Kristopher]

Re: Opinion poll

 

Something to keep in mind: if you hit someone with an object and it breaks, it does LESS damage than if it did not break. The breaking uses up some of the energy that would otherwise have been transfered to the target.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Opinion poll

 

Something to keep in mind: if you hit someone with an object and it breaks' date=' it does [i']LESS[/i] damage than if it did not break. The breaking uses up some of the energy that would otherwise have been transfered to the target.

 

Killjoy!

 

And we are talking about comic book physics right?

 

Hawksmoor

[Dust Raven]

Re: Opinion poll

 

Something to keep in mind: if you hit someone with an object and it breaks' date=' it does [i']LESS[/i] damage than if it did not break. The breaking uses up some of the energy that would otherwise have been transfered to the target.

Well, in game terms, the energy for the breaking comes from using more STR than the object can withstand. If you use "just enough" it won't break, but will still do a max of DEF+BODY.

[Kristopher]

Re: Opinion poll

 

Yep. In this case, real physics and the HERO game rule are in a happy, basic agreement.