Ncm:15

[UltraRob]

I know this has probably be asked before, but has anyone tried the option suggested in Fantasy Hero and dropped Normal Characteristic Maxima to 15 for the nonfigured stats? And did it work out?

I am planning a FH campaign right now, and am so sick of seeing everyone with DEX:20 that I'm considering NCM:15 as an experiment. So I thought I'd ask if anyone else tried it. My hope, of course, is that people will buy beyond 15, but only where they really want to focus.

 

Rob

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Ncm:15

 

Haven't tried it, but can you tell me where it is suggested in Fantasy Hero; want to check it out. Thanks!

[Snarf]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I'd be worried that everyone would go from having DEX 20 to everyone having DEX 15.

[UltraRob]

Re: Ncm:15

 

Haven't tried it' date=' but can you tell me where it is suggested in [i']Fantasy Hero[/i]; want to check it out. Thanks!

 

Page 79.

 

It's under "characteristics", so it's probably something nobody actually read because they figured they already knew it. I only stumbled across it accidently on the weekend...

 

Rob

[UltraRob]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I'd be worried that everyone would go from having DEX 20 to everyone having DEX 15.

 

Well, I would like to think this would have 3 effects:

 

1) People would put more thought into what stats were important to them, resulting in a little more variety. (Although, as you say, 15's across the board are also quite possible...but I like to think most poeple want an edge!)

2) Fast Draw would suddenly become a very popular thing to have.

3) Combat Skill Levels would also become much more popular and economical.

 

As a side note, I was thinking that for the purposes of "fantasy races", the NCM for each race would be the baseline+package bonus+5. (ie if Elves get +3 DEX then 10+3+5=DEX NCM:18, and they pay double above that.) The only problem I could see with this is that it might make "racial classes" too popular...taking a race which has the highest potentials in whatever you want your class to be.

 

Rob

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ncm:15

 

As a side note' date=' I was thinking that for the purposes of "fantasy races", the NCM for each race would be the baseline+package bonus+5. (ie if Elves get +3 DEX then 10+3+5=DEX NCM:18, and they pay double above that.) The only problem I could see with this is that it might make "racial classes" too popular...taking a race which has the highest potentials in whatever you want your class to be.[/quote']

 

I remember that approach from some old FH, and it always made a lot of sense if the various stat bonuses and penalties were reasonably balanced out.

 

Yes, this would motivate the "best" race for the "class. If elves have the potential to be the best archers in the world, but poor potential as melee combatants, wouldn't you expect:

 

(a) The best archers in the world would be predominantly elven?

 

( Elves to logically focus their combat tactics and training on archery rather than melee?

 

Makes sense to me. Of course, whether you want to have that added degree of differentiation between the various races is a question you/your gaming group needs to answer before deciding.

[Edsel]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I'd be worried that everyone would go from having DEX 20 to everyone having DEX 15.

Ain't that the truth. In any game in which we use NCM I have noticed that almost everybody ends up with 20 DEX and 4 SPD. Except the occational mini-brick who invariably has as much STR as he can get away with and maybe a DEX as low as 18. It is very very rare to see a SPD other than 4 in our NCM games.

 

Oddly it's rare to see a SPD greater than 6 no matter what we run.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I thought about doing this. Here is the good and bad that I see with it.

 

Instead of 20 being where everyone will want their character to be at, for Dex and Str especially, 15 will become that limit. CSLs will become more favored once a character gets to that 15 Dex, after that CSLs start to become more cost effective for what you can do with them. Once you drop the NCM to 15, then you are going to have to figure out how you want to drop the Age categories as well.

 

This is what I came up with for the NCM and the age categories. The format will be NCM/NCM40/NCM60/NCM10. I am not sure that this is the best chart in the world though.

 

STR 15/13/8/5

DEX 15/15/13/10

CON 15/13/8/5

BODY 15/13/8/5

INT 15/18/20/10

EGO 15/18/20/5

PRE 15/18/20/5

COM 15/15/15/13

PD 6/4/3/2

ED 6/4/3/2

SPD 3/3/3/2

REC 8/6/4/3

END 40/30/20/20

STUN 40/30/20/15

 

Even with all this put into it, I am not sure that I am going to follow through on it. I think that I am just going to reduce the points to 50/50, and then enforce correct building techniques per character concepts.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Ncm:15

 

If the players built their characters at 25/25 level, they will have fewer points to spend on DEX, CSL or other characteristics. Characters constructed at the 75/75 level can represent heros that are at the peak of physical training so it is quite reasonable that many of their characteristics would reach maximum levels. If you want your players to build more realistic characters then you need to set your game at more realistic level.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I know this has probably be asked before, but has anyone tried the option suggested in Fantasy Hero and dropped Normal Characteristic Maxima to 15 for the nonfigured stats? And did it work out?

I am planning a FH campaign right now, and am so sick of seeing everyone with DEX:20 that I'm considering NCM:15 as an experiment. So I thought I'd ask if anyone else tried it. My hope, of course, is that people will buy beyond 15, but only where they really want to focus.

 

Rob

I had an idea along these lines, but currently no campaign to try it out. It was a soft-NCM:15 with a hard-NCM:25. Above 25, the costs would double, and above 15 the costs increase 50%. No free points of course, so when 3 points buys 2 STR, the first costs 2 and the second costs 1. Some people will still push to the max, but the cost along the way may result in a wider range of values.

[CourtFool]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I have to wonder, is everyone having a Dex of 15 any better than everyone having a Dex of 20?

 

It does not sound like you are so much concerned with the effectiveness of a 20 Dex, ie OCV 7/ DCV 7 Des skills at 13, but with lack of variety. I think another approach is required to deal with a lack of variety. First try to understand why all your players insist on a 20 Dex. Most likely it is because they want that CV 7 and 4 SPD. Why do they want a CV 7 and 4 SPD? Most likely because they want to be effective in combat.

 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with combat. I do think it has its place. However, if it is the focus of the campaign then everyone is going to want to shine in the focus of the campaign. You need to give your players a reason to be less effective. Are there opportunities to use other skills or abilities to steal the scene?

 

Make other abilities and skills more appealing and I bet your players will stop coming to the table with 20 Dex. Easier said than done, I know.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I don't think you'll solve the problem by lowering the NCM to 15, you'll probably compound it actually. Because now that's 15 more points they'll have to put into other characteristics and you'll end up with everyone at 15 down the line. Which is not what you want.

 

Personally, my answer is to give the characters less points to work with, as someone else suggested. Drop the level down to 25/25, 50/25 or 50/50. Then spending 30pts in DEX to have that 20 is suddenly a major portion of the character points. You'll still have one or two that make it that high but most will back off and make a more well rounded character (especially at the 25/25 point level). Hopefully at least.

 

This way the idea is the characters grow into the campaign, by the time they reach the 150pt level again I'd expect half the party to have that 20DEX but the other half will have gone the CSL route, other skills or something else entirely. And you'll have a much more sastifyingly rounded party (both for you the GM and the players).

[Lezentauw]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I have to wonder, is everyone having a Dex of 15 any better than everyone having a Dex of 20?

 

It does not sound like you are so much concerned with the effectiveness of a 20 Dex, ie OCV 7/ DCV 7 Des skills at 13, but with lack of variety. I think another approach is required to deal with a lack of variety. First try to understand why all your players insist on a 20 Dex. Most likely it is because they want that CV 7 and 4 SPD. Why do they want a CV 7 and 4 SPD? Most likely because they want to be effective in combat.

 

I am not saying there is anything wrong with combat. I do think it has its place. However, if it is the focus of the campaign then everyone is going to want to shine in the focus of the campaign. You need to give your players a reason to be less effective. Are there opportunities to use other skills or abilities to steal the scene?

 

Make other abilities and skills more appealing and I bet your players will stop coming to the table with 20 Dex. Easier said than done, I know.

 

I agree with your above statement 100%. I recognized that was the whole motivation behind me wanting to go down the NCM15 route. I pretty much scrapped the whole notion anyways. No need to have a ton of contrived house rules, to make chargen a tedious process. Reducing the starting points will accomplish the same thing as decreasing the NCMs, and would probably go over a bit better.

 

As to your second note for making skills worth their weight, I have increased my EM skill list to include 3 Knowledge Skills. One for the local area, one for the country they live in, and another for a hobby or area of interest to the character. I am hoping that by increasing the KS's, that I will be showing the importance that I will be placing upon skills in my campaign.

[Old Man]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I'd actually be more likely to alter the costs of the characteristics themselves. Stats in Hero are too cheap compared to skills in the first place. Altering costs gets rid of the hard NCM breakpoint issue, and it also makes it much harder for characters to start at 10 STR and progress to 25 STR in four adventures.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I concur with most of the previous posters ... if you want less powerful characters, just give them fewer points to play with.

 

The idea that people will snag the best 'race for the class' has been around forever, from the the first edition of AD&D, and every other fantasy RPG since. Elves make better archers because they get a bonus to DEX (they even got an attack bonus). Dwarves make good fighters because of their toughness. Halflings make good thieves because of their size and generally slippery nature. Gnomes make ... uh ... gnomes ... well, anyway ...

 

I'm pondering, in my next FH game, simply removing humans from the world and having be all 'fantastic' races ... therefore, I needn't worry about making humans worth playing, because there ain't none.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I'm guessing that the one advantage of setting the NCM threshhold at 15 is that almost all characters would have the same stats as GURPS characters...

[CourtFool]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I am hoping that by increasing the KS's' date=' that I will be showing the importance that I will be placing upon skills in my campaign.[/quote']

 

I have found that by constantly having the players make certain skill rolls they will realize their importance and put points in them. Everytime the player wants to do something 'cool' ask if he has an appropriate skill.

 

Player "I chat up the barmaid."

GM "Do you have Persuasion, Oratory or PS Barkeep? No? She does not seem too terribly interested in what you have to say."

[dbsousa]

Re: Ncm:15

 

In a recent Star Hero Game, I tried to increase the variety in Stats by declaring that no two game characters could have all identical Primary Stats. It seemed to do the trick...

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I'm guessing that the one advantage of setting the NCM threshhold at 15 is that almost all characters would have the same stats as GURPS characters...

And this is a GOOD thing? LOL

[UltraRob]

Re: Ncm:15

 

In a recent Star Hero Game' date=' I tried to increase the variety in Stats by declaring that no two game characters could have all identical Primary Stats. It seemed to do the trick...[/quote']

 

So, did your players barter over who would have what stats?

 

That sounds like an interesting idea! I might try it!

 

Rob

[UltraRob]

Re: Ncm:15

 

I remember that approach from some old FH, and it always made a lot of sense if the various stat bonuses and penalties were reasonably balanced out.

 

Yes, this would motivate the "best" race for the "class. If elves have the potential to be the best archers in the world, but poor potential as melee combatants, wouldn't you expect:

 

(a) The best archers in the world would be predominantly elven?

 

( Elves to logically focus their combat tactics and training on archery rather than melee?

 

Makes sense to me. Of course, whether you want to have that added degree of differentiation between the various races is a question you/your gaming group needs to answer before deciding.

 

Yeah, I do have to admit that the old FH way of just playing with the NCM for each race made a lot of sense. Although I think that's more of a metagaming thing than something to do within the rules like the old FH tried to do. The GM should just set the ranges and that's how it is, just like human NCM is.

 

Here's an interesting point, though...How in HERO would you make it so Elves are naturally better archers when the prime stat for any combat is still DEX? There's really nothing there to encourage archers over light fighters, except maybe a low ability to take hits due to a low CON. (Which I guess might do it...)

 

I guess they could have natural PSLs to represent their ability to target...but that seems a little odd.

 

Rob

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Ncm:15

 

Here's an interesting point, though...How in HERO would you make it so Elves are naturally better archers when the prime stat for any combat is still DEX? There's really nothing there to encourage archers over light fighters,

 

All combat is based on DEX, but several other factors would encourage archery over a 'mobile melee' combat technique. For example, if Elves have a lower average STR, CON, BODY, and/or STUN, then this has other repercussions ...

since bows don't add with STR Minima, they benefit more from using bows than swords.

Ranged weaponry tends to do less damage than melee, so they don't risk getting Stunned as often if they can keep the fighting at ranged combat ... same with BODY and STUN. Lower CON and STR also means lower PD and ED, so remaining at range, using sniper/cover tactics become far more attractive as a way to avoid damage.

 

Now, a higher-DEX character who suffers, say, in the mental stats, would work just as well as a nimble melee combatant as an archer; it's the combination of the stats that makes them better archers, not just DEX.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Ncm:15

 

It seems to me that lowering NCM to 15 would produce more variety. If the PCs have enough points to buy up all their stats to 20 when NCM is 20. They's have to pick and choose which ones they want over 15 when NCM is 15. While many characters will max out several stats at 15, there will still be individual variation based on the character type. Dexie the Dextrous Dexling will buy her DEX higher than NCM, Stronk the Strong Strongman will have a higher STR, and General Broad the Well-Rounded will have mostly 15's.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Ncm:15

 

There's only two real solution to preventing all characters from raising their characteristics up to the NCM.

 

1) Don't have a NCM, which has it's own problems in maintaining realistic characteristic values and I don't suggest to anyone for a FH campaign, or

 

2) Gradual cost increases. For example, the cost increase for Dex would follow this pattern starting at Dex 11: 1 cp, 2cp, 3cp, 4cp, 5cp...etc. For Strenth, it would be like this: 1cp, 1cp, 1cp, 2cp, 2cp, 2cp, 3cp, 3cp, 3cp, 4cp...etc. So for a Dex 16 it would cost 21 points total, and to go to Dex 17 would cost that character 7 points more. For a Strengh 16 it would cost that character 9 points, and to go to Strenth 17 would cost 3 points more. Doing it this way works in the way that there is no defined threshold where characteristics suddenly jump up in point cost. This gives the player no real "bargain" characteristic value and encourages them to diversify their characteristics based on their level of dedication rather than point cost efficiency. A flat characteristic maximum of 20 for humans would be fine since it would cost so many points to have a Dex 20 that only the truly dedicated would bother (55 character points total I believe)

[Gunrunner]

Re: Ncm:15

 

But then I suppose you'd have the mathmaticians trying to figure out the most efficient cost for Dex based on whether it would be better to buy CSL's or Dexterity at some given value Can't win it seems.

 

Another thing you can try is to have characters roll randomly for their own unique normal characteristic maxima. This would give some variety to characters, as they all have their own distinct limitations in different characteristics. A slow witted warrior may have a high NCM for STR (19 for example), but a low NCM for intelligence (13 perhaps) - it is easier for him to become stronger than smarter.