Stunning the target without damaging it

[Tom McCarthy]

Here's an oddball idea that works nicely in other systems but not here. I want the target to be Stunned fairly reliably by this attack (losing a single phase), but not otherwise inconvenienced.

 

10D6 EB, (25 base points) NND [defense is succeeding on a CON check at -6] (+1), (50 active points) does no damage if character is not Stunned by the hit (-1/4, since it takes a huge CON to avoid this), all damage done by the hit disappears on next DEX increment of same segment, leaving target Stunned (-1) (22 points)

 

Alternatively, I played with a SPD Drain, but it needed GM permission to affect the next phase.

 

Drain SPD 3D6, set effect 10 points, ranged (+1/2) (45 active points), drains target's next phase then fully recovers (-1/2) (30 points)

 

I also considered an entangle with 0 DEF which worked against CON, not STR, and it too seemed possible (and perhaps cheapest). However, a typical superheroic CON of 23 will break out with a half phase remaining.

 

Entangle 4D6 DEF 2 (30 base points), works vs. CON, not STR (+1/2), takes no damage from physical attacks (+1/4), cannot be escaped with teleport (+1/4), no Defense (-1 1/2), cannot form barriers (-1/4), susceptible to healing or SPD Aid applied to victim (-1/4) (20 points)

 

Any other ideas ? Mind Control or Mental Illusions ("you are Stunned") ?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

Here's an oddball idea that works nicely in other systems but not here. I want the target to be Stunned fairly reliably by this attack (losing a single phase), but not otherwise inconvenienced.

 

10D6 EB, (25 base points) NND [defense is succeeding on a CON check at -6] (+1), (50 active points) does no damage if character is not Stunned by the hit (-1/4, since it takes a huge CON to avoid this), all damage done by the hit disappears on next DEX increment of same segment, leaving target Stunned (-1) (22 points)

 

Alternatively, I played with a SPD Drain, but it needed GM permission to affect the next phase.

 

Drain SPD 3D6, set effect 10 points, ranged (+1/2) (45 active points), drains target's next phase then fully recovers (-1/2) (30 points)

 

I also considered an entangle with 0 DEF which worked against CON, not STR, and it too seemed possible (and perhaps cheapest). However, a typical superheroic CON of 23 will break out with a half phase remaining.

 

Entangle 4D6 DEF 2 (30 base points), works vs. CON, not STR (+1/2), takes no damage from physical attacks (+1/4), cannot be escaped with teleport (+1/4), no Defense (-1 1/2), cannot form barriers (-1/4), susceptible to healing or SPD Aid applied to victim (-1/4) (20 points)

 

Any other ideas ? Mind Control or Mental Illusions ("you are Stunned") ?

A Suppress used against Stun with [does no damage if character is not Stunned by the hit (-1/4, since it takes a huge CON to avoid this)] would probably be the easiest construct since you don't need to define a NND defense, it already uses power defense. To really make it effective you could suppress Stun AND CON at the same time too. I don't have FREd so I can't give you costs but I would imagine this would be a little more expensive than your other constructs without adding a 1 phase duration limitation (note, you don't HAVE to though).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

A Suppress used against Stun with [does no damage if character is not Stunned by the hit (-1/4' date= since it takes a huge CON to avoid this)] would probably be the easiest construct since you don't need to define a NND defense, it already uses power defense. To really make it effective you could suppress Stun AND CON at the same time too. I don't have FREd so I can't give you costs but I would imagine this would be a little more expensive than your other constructs without adding a 1 phase duration limitation (note, you don't HAVE to though).

 

I like that construct...cost effectiveness...the 10d6 EB suggestion would actually cost 44, not 22, as a 10d6 EB costs 50 points, not 25.

 

So we could buy 12d6 Suppress (Stun and CON, +1/2), damage only lasts until next DEX increment of same segment leaving target stunned (-1) for 60 x 1.5/2 = 45 points. That's 42 STUN and 21 CON suppressed on average - that should stun just about anything. hmmm...36 and 18 if we use Standard Effect.

 

Logically, the power could also be Beam Effect (-1/4), unable to be spread. There's probably some other small limitations that could be applied.

 

I've looked at trying to do a similar effect before and, ultimately, I couldn't find a way that was cheap enough to make it worthwhile. Part of the reason this is so much easier in other systems is that "being stunned" doesn't carry the same ease of KO in the stunned period. In D&D, for example, losing your DEX bonus for a round isn't as big a deal as being at half DCV and having all your defensive powers shut down is in Champions.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

Just buy a Killing Attack with a buttload of +1 Stun mods and the limitations does no body, does stun only for the purpose of achieving a Con stun result. (and does no kb)

 

Oughtta be pretty effective.

[Foxx!]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

A Suppress used against Stun with [does no damage if character is not Stunned by the hit (-1/4' date= since it takes a huge CON to avoid this)] would probably be the easiest construct since you don't need to define a NND defense, it already uses power defense. To really make it effective you could suppress Stun AND CON at the same time too. I don't have FREd so I can't give you costs but I would imagine this would be a little more expensive than your other constructs without adding a 1 phase duration limitation (note, you don't HAVE to though).

Hyper-Man!

 

Clever! I must use that.

 

If you Suppress CON and STUN at the same time, do you check for being stunned before reducing the CON because the CON is a defence?

 

Cheers

[KA.]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

Don't know how legal this is, but how about a bunch of Presence,

Only for Presence Attack, with a Limitation for only causing hesitation,

and some limitation for how often it can be used.

 

All you need if PRE/EGO +20, and they lose a Phase.

 

KA.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

Hyper-Man!

 

Clever! I must use that.

 

If you Suppress CON and STUN at the same time, do you check for being stunned before reducing the CON because the CON is a defence?

 

Cheers

That's a really good question.

 

Another recent thread dealt with something similar: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19617

But it is talking about the effects of being Stunned only, not the CON characteristic itself.

 

I don't know if CON is considered to be a 'Defense' or not. But I don't think that it is.

 

The timing of the simultaneous Suppress vs. STUN and CON plus the determination of what CON value is then used to determine Stunning might be an issue though.

 

The only relevant FAQ quote I could find states:

Q: If a character Suppresses more of a target’s STUN than the target has CON, is the target Stunned?

 

A: Yes, but the target gets to recover from being Stunned per the usual rules; maintaining the Suppress does not prevent this (though applying the Suppress a second time in the Segment when he tries to recover would).

 

But It does NOT deal with a simultaneous CON and STUN Suppress.

 

Someone may want to ask Steve.

[arcady]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

So how would you build a power that kept someone stunned?

 

Mind Control based on CON?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

I've built a "dazer" (something that causes the effect of being Stunned, but doesn't cause any actuall STUN or BODY damage, and lasts for one Phase) using Suppress STUN.

 

I usually go along the lines of Dazer: Suppress STUN 12d6 (60 Active), Instant (-1/2) (Real Cost 40)

 

This wonderful little Power will Stun most targets, even those with Power Defense. It also has the habit of knocking out targets with less than 40 STUN for a few seconds (the STUN comes back, but there END is automatically gone and they still have to recover from being Stunned).

 

If I want to keep the target Stunned, you can modify the above by adding Continuous. Technically, Suppress is already Constant, but it's not additive. The first roll just continues to affect the target, but the Stunning effect only occurs once. Applying Continuous effectively gives you a roll every Phase, and can potentially Stun the target each of your Phases. The problem is using it on a target with a greater SPD. For this, I'd add in an extra +x SPD up to the campaign max (or 12) with the Limitation "Only To Continue Suppress STUN" (-1 to -2, depending on how often this attack is used). At this point though, I take one look at how this will cost and just by an Entangle Takes No Damage From Attacks.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

So how would you build a power that kept someone stunned?

 

Mind Control based on CON?

 

Well, the whole idea is to keep the target immobile while not causing damage so ti initially sounds like an Entangle to me. However it might be a case where you could justify an entangle based on CON - if the target makes a good CON roll then they'd break out of the entangle (recover from the stunned condition).

 

I guess you'd have to buy it so that others could damage the entangle - though I'd love to see the justification of teammates using _their_ CON to attack the entangle!

 

It would be a simple thing to make this an instant effect rather than a constant one if you were looking for the stunned effect.

 

IMHO obviously...

 

 

Doc

[TheEmerged]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

RE: Suppressing CON and STUN at the same time. Just my opinion, but this would fall under the "damage first" boilerplate -- whether or not the person was CON-stunned would be figured before CON was reduced. This is thematically the same as an attack which does damage and reduces defenses...

 

RE: Original Topic. If you don't mind a bit of rule-bending, there's a mechanic I've heard of but never actually tried: void the rule forbidding Dispel from being used against Characteristics and use Dispel vs STUN. The victim can "turn their STUN back on" and hence take no damage but still be considered "stunned" until the beginning of their next phase.

 

As I said I've never tried it; my instinct is that Dispel's 3 per d6 cost is too cheap for this use but I could see where it might be more balanced than it seems at first blush (because it's all or nothing).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

RE: Suppressing CON and STUN at the same time. Just my opinion' date=' but this would fall under the "damage first" boilerplate -- whether or not the person was CON-stunned would be figured before CON was reduced. This is thematically the same as an attack which does damage and reduces defenses...[/quote']

 

The difference is that CON is not a defense, but I'll confess I'm not confident of the correct answer. It's probably as or more effective to just increase the STUN suppress anyway, rather than take a +1/2 advantage to reduce CON at the same time. eg. 12d6 vs both is AP 90 and suppresses 42 STUN and 21 CON on average. 18d6 vs STUN costs the same AP 90 and suppresses 63 STUN on average, so it withh stun the same targets as if CON suppress applied first, as well as being more effective against a target with power defense (suppressing 53 STUN if you have 10 Power Defense, rather than suppressing 32 STUN and 16 CON).

 

RE: Original Topic. If you don't mind a bit of rule-bending, there's a mechanic I've heard of but never actually tried: void the rule forbidding Dispel from being used against Characteristics and use Dispel vs STUN. The victim can "turn their STUN back on" and hence take no damage but still be considered "stunned" until the beginning of their next phase.

 

As I said I've never tried it; my instinct is that Dispel's 3 per d6 cost is too cheap for this use but I could see where it might be more balanced than it seems at first blush (because it's all or nothing).

 

This seems a reasonable approach. However, the Suppress STUN, Instant (-1/2) gets a very similar cost (40 vs 36 RP for the same 12d6) without handwaving the "Dispel Characteristics" rule. Either should probably have an added limitation that prevents the target's END being wiped out to create the desired effect.

[Adam Lang]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

Just FYI, something very similar to this has been dealt with in an official Hero System product before.

 

Where, I hear you ask? (Well, see, I really don't, since my hearing isn't megascaled. I'm just saying that.)

 

In 'Magic Items', a supplement for Fantasy Hero first edition, copyright 1987. (How pathetic is it that I know this, and still have the book?)

 

Specifically, the Power Mace of Keshgar had an effect of 1d6 + 1 killing blast, and then a linked (except in that book they didn't use the limitation 'linked') 1d6 of killing blast with the limitation "only for stunning". Frankly, I like that approach... it's clean and simple. Of course, buying it as a normal-damage (or stun-only... perhaps ego?) might make more sense.

 

In campaigns where the DM is willing to bend a little, you could also go for a stun drain where you move the recovery *up* the time table a couple notches (thus making it recover faster than normal, in exchange for a limitation. Should be pretty obvious how it would work.)

 

--Adam Lang

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

In 'Magic Items', a supplement for Fantasy Hero first edition, copyright 1987. (How pathetic is it that I know this, and still have the book?)

 

Specifically, the Power Mace of Keshgar had an effect of 1d6 + 1 killing blast, and then a linked (except in that book they didn't use the limitation 'linked') 1d6 of killing blast with the limitation "only for stunning". Frankly, I like that approach... it's clean and simple. Of course, buying it as a normal-damage (or stun-only... perhaps ego?) might make more sense.

 

I think that predates Suppress by a considerable margin. I think I'd still go with non-constant Suppress.

[Adam Lang]

Not that anyone is reading this thread any more...

 

Not that anyone is reading this thread any more, but there are two powers that use 'suppress' as an effect in that same book, so it's demonstrably not before suppress existed. It may be before anyone thought of using it to suppress characteristics, though.

 

--Adam Lang

[Zed-F]

Re: Not that anyone is reading this thread any more...

 

Another thought, if you only want it to work for 1 phase, you could use Dispel STUN instead of suppress.

[GSLamb]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

So how would you build a power that kept someone stunned?

Borrowing from a City of Heroes (MMORPG) mod I worked on:

 

Stun:

1/2d6 Entangle (1 BODY, 0 DEF with Standard Effect)

Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation[+1/4]

Costs END Only To Activate[+1/4]

Takes No Damage From Attacks: All[+1/2]

Takes No Damage From Target: All[+1]

Lasts Until After Target's Next Phase[+3/4]

Cannot Form Barriers[-1/4]

Active = 19, Real = 15, END = 2

 

*Takes No Damage From Target was created by simply doubling the Takes No Damage From Attacks advantage.

*Lasts Until After Target's Next Phase used the (1 Turn) time modifer from continuous charges.

 

Having the low AP total was required to allow for the various Stun/Disorient/Sleep mitigating powers bought as Dispel.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

Borrowing from a City of Heroes (MMORPG) mod I worked on:

 

Stun:

1/2d6 Entangle (1 BODY, 0 DEF with Standard Effect)

Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation[+1/4]

Costs END Only To Activate[+1/4]

Takes No Damage From Attacks: All[+1/2]

Takes No Damage From Target: All[+1]

Lasts Until After Target's Next Phase[+3/4]

Cannot Form Barriers[-1/4]

Active = 19, Real = 15, END = 2

 

*Takes No Damage From Target was created by simply doubling the Takes No Damage From Attacks advantage.

*Lasts Until After Target's Next Phase used the (1 Turn) time modifer from continuous charges.

 

Having the low AP total was required to allow for the various Stun/Disorient/Sleep mitigating powers bought as Dispel.

 

hmmm...a very large, Invisible entangle based on ECV which lasts only until the end of the victim's next phase could work. You don't need Costs END only to activate - you only pay END each time you fire the entangle anyway. Fades away after next phase would be a limitation IMO.

 

Make a large Entangle that's invisible and it would be functionally similar to stunning the target for 1 phase.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Stunning the target without damaging it

 

+60 PRE Does not add to skill rolls. Does not apply in defense against PRE attacks.

 

Do a presence attack against your target. It always hits. All you need is a +20 result to achieve roughly the same effect as stunning people (constant powers don't drop, though)

 

For the record, I hate this idea. I just thought it might stimulate some debate.