Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

[tgaptte]

How would you represent a character who has only "Basic Training" from the army? Specifically, would you represent it as Martial Arts or just a couple of HTH skill levels? Does anyone have a "Basic Training" package deal they'd like to share?

 

Since I've never been in the military, I really have no idea how extensive the HTH training is. If I had to guess, I'd probably try something like this:

 

Martial Strike

Martial Block

Martial Throw

 

Anybody with more experience have any suggestions?

 

Thanks.

 

Tim

[Gary]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

10 pts of martial arts is supposed to represent basic black belt status. I don't think that basic training is enough to merit this. I'd just say that basic training is a special effect to buy up Str, Dex, and Con a little.

[pinecone]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

Things may have change since my day...but Basic should give you Zip for MA...Ranger traing most likely gives a level or two with the option of buying a full on Commando package, I beleive the Marines would be simular to the Rangers....

[Jhamin]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I don't think the average, 30-50 point soldier has 10 points worth of martial arts. They are working hard enough just to get to where most PCs start.

 

Remember that the average guy on the street has stats of 8 down the line, but that a soldier has stats of at least 10.

 

This means that they have to do alot of work buying up their Dex, Str, and Con. All the hand to hand training may just be one way of doing that.

 

And for what it is worth, there is actually an official answer for this:

 

The Basic Training package deal from Dark Champions (p51) doesn't automatically give any combat skill levels, but does hand out a couple weapon familiarities. You can take CSLs as part of your 6 points of "other military skills" from the package.

You don't automatically start piling up military martial arts until you take the special forces package deals.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

U.S. Navy boot camp grants WF: Small Arms and a 8- familiarity with PS: Sailor, based on my experiences.

 

Hmm...if we factor in Subject to Orders, my point total went DOWN noticeably when I joined the Navy!

 

Zeropoint

[caris]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

U.S. Navy boot camp grants WF: Small Arms and a 8- familiarity with PS: Sailor, based on my experiences.

 

Hmm...if we factor in Subject to Orders, my point total went DOWN noticeably when I joined the Navy!

 

Zeropoint

Hmmmm.... Maybe you should include your 1pt Seaman perk? Not that being even a Seaman, first class gives you a lot of perks.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

It lets you be on a military vessel.

 

Granted, this doesn't outweigh the associated disads. . .

[Zeropoint]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I think being on a military vessel IS a disad.

 

Part of the problem here is that basic training is only a tiny part of the training that a sailor receives before taking his or her place in the ship. It's purpose seems to be to weed out those individuals grossly unfit for the service and to get the recruits used to following orders.

 

A sailor will either go on to a school and learn his or her rate before getting to the ship, or get to the ship and start working on learning a rate. Most sailors go the former route, from what I can tell.

 

By the time a Electronics Technician, Nuclear gets to the ship, he or she will have something like KS: Electronics, KS: Nuclear Physics, KS: Thermodynamics, KS: Fluid Systems, and KS: Naval Nuclear Reactor Systems. Yes, I do mean KS instead of SS--the training is highly compressed, and we don't get a lot of hands-on experience. While we can look at a schematic and understand it, we'd be hard-pressed to take a bin of parts and design a sine-wave generator, for instance.

 

I'm afraid my job doesn't provide a lot of good roleplaying reference material, but if anyone is interested, I'd be happy to give out what I can. Maybe it could be used as a basis for Star Hero crew member NPC's.

 

Zeropoint

[megaplayboy]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I think a lot of military personnel either enter the service with MA knowledge, or they study it on the side while in the service. AFAIK there is some MA training similar to the commando training package, but generally the guys in basic should just get +1-3 STR/DEX/CON, and maybe an experienced MP might have a hand to hand level and +1d6 HA to represent brawling...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I think a lot of military personnel either enter the service with MA knowledge' date=' or they study it on the side while in the service. AFAIK there is some MA training similar to the commando training package, but generally the guys in basic should just get +1-3 STR/DEX/CON, and maybe an experienced MP might have a hand to hand level and +1d6 HA to represent brawling...[/quote']

 

Actually, you might be surprised how few military personell actually know Martial Arts. The percentage is only probably a little higher than the percentage of civilians who know it.

 

One can easily get a skewed vision of this aspect of the military, because the majority of martial arts teachers available are usually ex-military men who learned martial arts during their tours-of-duty over in asia. However trust me when I say this is a minority of individuals within the armed forces.

 

Bootcamp should give no martial training whatsoever. Most especially Navy and Air Force bootcamps (they are like excercise resorts compared to Army and Marine boot camps). They have no hand-to-hand training whatsoever. All the fighting training you recieve in Navy/Air Force bootcamp is WF-small arms. And you don't even train with automatic rifles, only pistols and shotguns.

 

However, with all the running, pushups, jumping jacks, situps, running etc that you do in all the bootcamps, I do suggest some characteristic bonuses as mentioned above. (+1STR/+1DEX/+1CON for Navy and Air Force. +2STR/+2DEX/+2CON for Marine and Army)

 

Martial arts training doesn't even enter the equation until one goes through special forces training. Rangers (Army) Seals (Navy) Recon (Marines) would probably all get the basic Commando package. The Seals would likely recieve the most martial training out of the three (12pts worth?) then the Rangers (10pts?) then Recon (8pts?)

[JmOz]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I have to agree, Dark Champions GREATLY EXAGERATES the stats military men & Woman have after training (Basic & Teck)

 

FROM MY EXPERIENCE:

 

Increased stats to about 10

PS: Airman 8-

Electronics 8-

KS: Airforce history 8-

Rank (E-2)

 

No I did not forget weapon FAM, it was left off because at least at the time I went through training we handled a gun ONCE (The M-16)

 

Obvioulsly some career fields (Cops) would train more with weapons than I did...

[Slim_McCoy]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I have to agree, Dark Champions GREATLY EXAGERATES the stats military men & Woman have after training (Basic & Teck)

 

FROM MY EXPERIENCE:

 

Increased stats to about 10

PS: Airman 8-

Electronics 8-

KS: Airforce history 8-

Rank (E-2)

 

No I did not forget weapon FAM, it was left off because at least at the time I went through training we handled a gun ONCE (The M-16)

 

Obvioulsly some career fields (Cops) would train more with weapons than I did...

 

Sounds about right for AF basic training. Change the Electronics to "pick one PS: 8-" for tech school, add "Subject to orders" and "Distinctive Features: Military Uniform" and you've got a package running probably 3-5 pts. Less package discount, but I'm not sure how those work in FREd.

 

And the 80 rounds every other year I fired to keep qualified on the M-16 does not qualify for a WF, IMO.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

Sounds about right for AF basic training. Change the Electronics to "pick one PS: 8-" for tech school, add "Subject to orders" and "Distinctive Features: Military Uniform" and you've got a package running probably 3-5 pts. Less package discount, but I'm not sure how those work in FREd.

 

And the 80 rounds every other year I fired to keep qualified on the M-16 does not qualify for a WF, IMO.

 

Actually, if it teaches you how to load, aim and fire the weapon, and you retain how to do that, I consider that a Weapon Familiarity.

 

The military at least does teach you that much in Basic. All military boot camps teach WF: Pistol at the very least. (in Navy boot I handled the .45 and a 12 Guage) Army and Marine bootcamp teaches you the full 2pt WF: Small Arms skill.

Basically all bootcamp is for is to give you the basics of military service, get you in shape (and make sure you can handle any physical activity that may be required of you during service) and train you up so you know which end of the gun to point at the enemy. After that, its all about the individual schools and training programs for the various Rates and MOS that are offered in the military. Guys who go to tank school learn to pilot and operate the M1 Abrams, while the guy that goes to Mess school learns how to make Chicken Pot Pie. What skills you are going to leave the military with is completely determined by your particular job within the service...

[JmOz]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I disagree, one day firing the M-16 does not equal Weapon Proficincy: Now I do think from what I have heard that the Marines and Army deserves that as part of basic, don't know about the navy at all...

 

I did not handle any pistols or shotguns while in the AF

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I disagree, one day firing the M-16 does not equal Weapon Proficincy: Now I do think from what I have heard that the Marines and Army deserves that as part of basic, don't know about the navy at all...

 

I did not handle any pistols or shotguns while in the AF

 

Interesting.

 

In the Navy we trained for one day in bootcamp, then once yearly we "requalified" on both the Pistol and the Shotgun. You had to demonstrate knowledge of how to properly load the weapon and fire at a distant target within specific parameters. Definately worthy of a basic WF.

[JmOz]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

We would have a refresher course every two years, and another day firing...

[Slim_McCoy]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

Basically all bootcamp is for is to give you the basics of military service' date=' get you in shape (and make sure you can handle any physical activity that may be required of you during service) and train you up so you know which end of the gun to point at the enemy. After that, its all about the individual schools and training programs for the various Rates and MOS that are offered in the military. Guys who go to tank school learn to pilot and operate the M1 Abrams, while the guy that goes to Mess school learns how to make Chicken Pot Pie. What skills you are going to leave the military with is [b']completely[/b] determined by your particular job within the service...

 

True, but the package JmOz was referring to represented AF basic training and tech school, thus the pick one PS. Why get out of the military with only Basic Training under their belt? You've been through the hardest part... now kick back and get paid to learn.

 

IIRC, AF weapons qualification is one day every other year for most... every 6 months for Security Forces, who qualify on multiple weapons. Obviously things are very different for services based around the Ground Roving Unit, Non Trainable.

[tgaptte]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

Thanks all, this has been a big help...so, to sum up from the email, the packages might look something like this:

 

Boot camp training packages

 

Army

- +2STR/+2DEX/+2CON

- PS: Soldier (8-)

- WF: Small Arms

- D: Subject to Orders

- D: DF: Uniform

Rangers

- +3 STR/DEX/CON

- "Commando" Martial Arts package

- D: Subject to Orders

Navy

- WF: Small Arms

- PS: Sailor (8-)

- +1STR/+1DEX/+1CON

- D: Subject to Orders

- D: DF: Uniform

Seal

- +3 STR/DEX/CON

- "Commando" Martial Arts package

- D: Subject to Orders

Airforce

- +1STR/+1DEX/+1CON

- PS: Airman 8-

- Electronics 8-

- KS: Airforce history 8-

- Rank (E-2)

- D: Subject to Orders

- D: DF: Uniform

Airborne

- +3 STR/DEX/CON

- "Commando" Martial Arts package

- D: Subject to Orders

Marines

- +2STR/+2DEX/+2CON

- "Commando" Martial Arts package

- D: Subject to Orders

- D: DF: Uniform

Recon

- +3 STR/DEX/CON

- "Commando" Martial Arts package

- D: Subject to Orders

 

I know these need to be fleshed out a bit...anyone want to help? How would you work Package Deals that require another package deal to qualify? Obviously you've got to have the Army "Basic Training" package before you can take "Ranger". Do you work that with a Disad?

 

Thanks.

 

Tim

[JmOz]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

Change the electronics in AF for one PS or a number of other skills *including electronics) also note that some career feilds will have the equivelent civilian training as well (Cops, fire department, etc)

[Samaritan]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I disagree, one day firing the M-16 does not equal Weapon Proficincy: Now I do think from what I have heard that the Marines and Army deserves that as part of basic, don't know about the navy at all...

 

I did not handle any pistols or shotguns while in the AF

 

Marines teach a wide variety of weapon familiarity, even to non combat personnel (M16A2, M249 SAW, M240, M2 .50 cal, M203 grenade launcher, MK19 automatic grenade launcher). You learn the M9 9mm pistol if your speciality requires it, or you make Staff Sgt or higher (including officers). Army follows similar guidelines (though not the M2, MK19 or M203, if I heard right).

 

Marines also teach VERY basic martial arts in boot camp. Army does, too, I think, though I might be wrong.

 

Not sure about AF or Navy.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I think the DC package deal does a pretty decent job of abstracting basic training. Having served on station with AF, Navy, and Marine personell, I agree that the Navy and AF boots are not as physically demanding or combat focused as the Army/Marine boots.

 

Going through Army boot and having knowledge of MA going in, the HtH training (1 day) might qualify as +1 with block, strike, grab IF you were a fast learner.

 

WF: Knife is questionable. WF: Fixed Bayonet certainly would be more appropriate.

 

I think soldiers who learn fast would also have more than 6 points worth of skills from the list, but as an average I think it sums up my experience fairly well.

 

Most of your focus in BT is PS: Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine than anything else. Second to that is a balance of basic rifle marksmanship and physical training. I know Navy/AF boots are shorter than Army/Marine and that they don't spend as much time on BRM as the grunts and jarheads do, so I'm not sure if some other skills are substituted for that time. BRM is focused on WF anyway, with the opportunity for fast learners to acquire some CSLs.

 

There are also a lot of little skills that PS: Soldier/etc. cover: claymore mines, map reading, digging an individual fighting position, etc. Some of these might qualify as 8- familiarities (e.g. Navigation), understanding that extra time, tools, and the complimentary skills of your fellow soldiers could improve that to a truly functional level. However, using the PS might substitute in very specific instances, representing basic familiarity with a lot of specific tasks in various skills.

 

LAW rockets were also part of our training, and we were tested on them, so WF might be appropriate for that too (coming out of those 6 points).

 

Definitely no MA though. Not even a little bit.

[Rick]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

I've seen what HtH combat training in the army and marines is. It's, if anything, as someone else said, +1 ocv w/grab, strike and throw. That's a good fast learner, otherwise it's an excuse to have higher base CV's than the average joe.

[pinecone]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

You might want to also add in an additional package of Air bourne training...can't hardly get into an elite unit without it. Most people who get HTH training in the military come out with not too much...like most things you get out what you put in...the default is likely a level or two and maybe a Brawling HA...others will get a "commando" MA of 6 to 12 points worth....it HERO ya get what you put points into...In Army basic I trianed on M-16, M203,M-60, Grenade and bayonete. I'd call that WF.Military arms...I never touched a Ma-duece but I'm sure I'd pick up on it quick.My brother was a combat engineer and he had his Own M2 mounted on his truck......

[Rick]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

As my two ex-army friends say (one from Nam and the other just a few years ago) "In the army you learn just enough about fighting to get you into a lot of trouble".

[tgaptte]

Re: Martial Arts to represent "Basic Training"

 

Well...so much for finishing these packages...Dark Champions page 51 has most of these and in better detail...the only one that is missing is Airborne...I wonder why that was left out as an "Elite" military package?

 

So then...let's build it...in reference to pg 52 of Dark Champions, comparing Airborne to the existing Recon/Seal/Ranger/Green Berets, how doesit stack up?

 

Thanks

 

Tim