Storm Shadow Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 I found Sparkplug's sheet by Dennis Mallonee. http://www.heroicpub.com/characters/charsheet.asp?Name=Sparkplug He gave her the following disadvantage: "German patriot 15". Then for example Captain America has the same disadvantage. From my point of view it is a disad. only if you have to save 2 unknown guys and you first saves the life of the guy from your country/race/religion. IMHO Sparkly and Caps will save their people first. But if you just love your country and your flag that's great. It's not a disad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? By definition it has to be limiting. In that sense it would only be if he believed Germany could do no wrong and was willing to fight anyone who spoke to the contrary. By that definition I'd never give Cap a disad for it. He's a pragmatist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Patriotism is a disadvantage if and only if the GM uses it as such, just like any other psych limit. If Cap's Patriotism never plays a significant role in adventures, it's worth nothing. If it can be used to bait him into a trap, manipulate him, or otherwise act as a plot hook, I'd give him the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? IMO, Patriotism is kind of like "Code of Honor" in that the GM and Player should probably get together and take time to define what it means for this particular character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Shadow Posted September 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Why a Code of Honor? I mean a soldier follows a code of honor, but a civil patriot? or a hero patriot? (I know Cap. is a soldier but Sparkly is a hero). I agree, it depends of the character or how the GM will use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParitySoul Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Heh. Kinda funny when I saw this topic I went..." Ask me in the 50's and I'd yell Hello NO. Now, ya." It's perspective of socitety that your living in. In the case of Capt. Well, if you remember when he was 'disilluisioned' and became Nomad for that time. He learned to love the country...not the government. A tactful change of heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Captain America/Steve Rogers could get points or not. He doesn't seem to let his patriotism take control of his mind, but maybe there have been times when he's let it get the best of him. Captain America/John Walker should get points for it. He gets a little psycho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Why a Code of Honor? I mean a soldier follows a code of honor, but a civil patriot? or a hero patriot? (I know Cap. is a soldier but Sparkly is a hero). I agree, it depends of the character or how the GM will use it. I was comparing the two because Patriotism, like Code of Honor, can have a lot of variety. The 'code of honor' could be clasic chivalry, to Bushido, to 'Always keeping your word' and 'always fighting by the rules'etc. Patriotism can be everything from jingoistic "My Country Right or Wrong" to meaning the character seeks to protect his nation and look out for its interests first, or it could be trying to hold those representing the nation to higher ideals, Reprsenting those ideals himself (and concious of it) and/or one could play it as a means by which the villain could easily provoke a hero. Example, Joe decides he will play "Mr. Liberty!" an obvious flagsuit who always seeks to uphold the ideas of the US (EDIT: And without being obnoxious about it). A new villain, calling himself "Right Thinker" ALSO wears a flagsuit and begins exterminating 'foriegn scum polluting our shores'. Mr. Liberty would already be going after ANYONE murdering innocent people, but the fact the villain is doing in the name of the same country Mr Liberty loves, and is perverting the ideals he believes it stands for... well, that makes it personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Shadow Posted September 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Heh. Kinda funny when I saw this topic I went..." Ask me in the 50's and I'd yell Hello NO. Now, ya." It's perspective of socitety that your living in. In the case of Capt. Well, if you remember when he was 'disilluisioned' and became Nomad for that time. He learned to love the country...not the government. A tactful change of heart. I absolutely 100% agree Sometimes governments takes desitions against people desire or even worse when the people didn't notice about these desitions. It happens everywhere in the past or present or future... this is a human society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Take it to the NGD forum ya tree hugging hippie commies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Take it to the NGD forum ya tree hugging hippie commies. Hunted by: "The Man" 11- (More Powerful, NCI, Desires to 'keep us down') Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? If Cap runs into a burning building to rescue a US flag, it's a disad. :-) Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Shadow Posted September 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Yeah, in that way I prefer General Glory ..... wait a minute, aren't they...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Hunted by: "The Man" 11- (More Powerful, NCI, Desires to 'keep us down') The thing is, wasn't this the entire plot of "Undercover Brother"? (An underappreciated gem IMHO) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? In the sense that it's a Psych Lim, yes. It can be used to predict and, ofttimes, manipulate, a character. Since Cap's such an idealist, his actions are going to represent his beliefs in what America should be ... which is part of the reason he's so straight-laced. If someone starts making anti-America actions (not necessarily speech ... First Amendment and all that), he's going to take action against that as his highest priority. This, of course, can be used to bait him into a trap or distract him from the real issue at hand. I'd probably put Cap's at Common, Strong, since he does realize that the government and the country are two different things. Compare/constrast to the USAgent's 'Superpatriot' version, which is 'My country right or wrong', which means that he locksteps to the government. I believe a quote of his I once read was, "If the President ordered me to be Mickey Mouse, I'd do it." That was mellowed somewhat (he refused to kill Spider-Woman II even when he was informed she was a 'rogue agent'). All the GM needs to do to manipulate someone with 'Superpatriot' is make a convincing FBI or CIA agent-fake and give him orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Its a disadvantage if: 1) it drives the character to take personal risks for their nation 2) the character's patriotism is challenged by in-game events (role playing!) 3) it allows the GM to maneuver the character into the plot Its up to the game master, not the player, to create situations where a disadvantage is worth the points the character received for it. Also, some disadvantages serve as the primary basis of the characters motivation. If their the justification for the character doing what they do then its already proved its worth in my estimation - and any additional taffy-pulling I do on the character's psyche is purely for the role-play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? I back what Von D-Man says. Also if you wear the flag of you country NPCs will expect certain behaviour from you. So will your enemies and people who believe they have a similar viewpoint. It is a disadvantage. I mean if you come across someone wearing a black uniform with a swastika armband what is your likely first reaction ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? I mean if you come across someone wearing a black uniform with a swastika armband what is your likely first reaction ? "This man has no job." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamamura Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Even in a society where Patriotism is admired, it is still a disadvantage because it will guide you character's actions. In another system honesty and truthfulness (even though both traits are admirable) are disadvs because they limit what your character can or can not do. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Even in a society where Patriotism is admired, it is still a disadvantage because it will guide you character's actions. In another system honesty and truthfulness (even though both traits are admirable) are disadvs because they limit what your character can or can not do. Yup, this is the key point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Also, you have to look at the degree of Patriotism.. Is the character just a Patriot, or are they a Nationalist? A Patriot is the kind of person who displays symbols of the country (flags, etc..) visibily and most of the time. They are proud of their country with slogans like "Support The Troops" etc.. in times of war. Even if they disagree with the war they will still show pride in the country. A Nationalist (or SuperPatriot if you want..) will never disagree with the government "Love it or Leave it" types fall into this area, these are the dangerous kind as they more often than not leave no room for variation and don't allow for anyone to disagree with the government in question (damn pinko commies!) Both are disadvantageous in many situations, but they do have to come up in Role Playing. The first may say or display slogans at innapropriate times or places, causing uncomfotrable social interactions or problems. The second will outright dictate actions by the character, they will vocally (and often violently) oppose anyone who does not agree with and uphold the current governments stand on any given subject - simply disagreeing with a governmental decision can be akin to being traitorous to a Nationalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Gabri Posted September 23, 2004 Report Share Posted September 23, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Its up to the game master' date=' not the player, to create situations where a disadvantage is worth the points the character received for it.[/quote'] I disagree. Certainly, if the disad is ever going to be a significant inconvenience for the character, the GM has to arrange that circumstance. But the player has a responsibility to roleplay the PsychLims they take for their character. This is one of the ways the disad is worth points. Disads like Dislikes Short People would otherwise be nearly worthless. (I mean, how often is someone going to be attacked by a horde of midgets? Hmmm...) Anyway, my point is that the player has as much responsibility to earn the points as the GM does to screw with him/her. So with characters like Cap, who is a Patriot who loves his country enough to disagree with its government from time to time. He gets points because sometimes he's willing to stand up to the government (risky business, especially these days) to uphold his country's ideals. By contrast a SuperPatriot who believes in his country, right or wrong, is getting the points because sometimes he will choose to do things that will be unpopular because he believes they're right. Both are getting points for the consequences of their beliefs, which consequences would never occur if the player doesn't roleplay them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? Well Said Archangel. Couldn't have said it better myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Hase Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? A Psychological Limitation is a disadvantage that limits a character's behavior. Patriotism could certainly limit a character's behavior. The degree to which it may do so is up to the player when buying the disadvantage, and then the GM to approve it for his game. It could run the gambit from (Uncommon, Moderate) to (Very Common, Total) depending on how important this is to the character and the likelihood of situations involving it occuring. Remember, psychological limitations that require characters to behave heroically are limitations because they require the behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted September 24, 2004 Report Share Posted September 24, 2004 Re: Is patriotism a disadvantage? I back what Von D-Man says. Also if you wear the flag of you country NPCs will expect certain behaviour from you. So will your enemies and people who believe they have a similar viewpoint. It is a disadvantage. I mean if you come across someone wearing a black uniform with a swastika armband what is your likely first reaction ? Same as Indiana Jones. "Nazis. I hate these guys." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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