Evolution of the races?

[tkdguy]

Okay, this question will most likely crown me science geek of the year, but you guys knew that already.

 

If I were to explain the existence of different humanoid races (elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.) as the product of evolution, how should I go about it?

 

Should they be different strains of Homo Sapiens? Then half-elves and half-orcs would be able to exist.

 

Should they come from different branches of humanity that pre-dated Homo Sapiens Orcs could have evolved from Neanderthals, for example.

 

If elves are the eldest race, could they have evolved from Australopithecus?

 

Keep in mind I'm trying to come up with a scientific explanation of how these races came to be. None of that "created by the gods" or "magical creatures" stuff. They could be aliens, but I don't particularly care for that explanation either.

[philnicau]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

I'd go for the early offshoot theory, during stages in Human Evolution multiple strains of Humanity did exist near simulataneously

for example

Australopithecus Gracile and Australopithecus Robustus both were in existance with Homo Habilis, as well as Australopithecus Boesi.

so the Gracile could have become the Elves, the Robustus the Dwarves and the Bosei the Orcs, with Human evolving from Habilis.

[Eosin]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

Why not have parallel development of seperate lines? IIRC my genetics classes, neanderthal and cromangon were actually in competition rather than one descending from the other.

 

Man descends from Australopithecus.

Orcs are actually remnants of cromangons.

Elves would decend from a totally seperate line.

And dwarves could be from any of these but dwell in an area of high background radiation which caused them to mutate and evolve/devolve quicker.

[Outsider]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

If you are wanting evolution from a common root-stock, and dont want to go with the simultaneous-existence-of-multiple-species-in-the-same-habitat scenario, you would have to set up your world to have to have geography that will isolate populations sufficiently well that they could not interbreed or displace one another for most of their history, while, simultaneously not isolating them so well that the primitive ancestral could not have spread to the various continents in the first place. Kind of a tall order... unless you make the continents isloated enough that it takes a relatively high technology to travel between them and :

 

1) You have the ancestral form not be primitive. At some time in the unimaginably distant past, people were all the same species and were technically advanced enough to spread from the continent of origin to all the other continents. Then some catastrophy wiped out thier technology, isloating the survivors on each continent for a very, very, long time. The difficulty with this one is explaining, when the ancestrals were capable of a techical society, how any catastrophy was sufficiently bad to keep them from forming a new techical society before evolutionary timescales passed. A severe astronomical event that screws up the climate for a very, very long time might do it.

 

2) You have the ancestral form's initial multi-continental distribution not be self managed. There was a previous technical society made up of another race entirely, who kept the current race's ancestrals as clever pets, semi-intellegent laborers, or whatever. Then a catastrophy happened that the 'pets' were able to survive, but the 'masters' were not. After the Masters are gone, the pets on each isolated continent evolved along slightly different lines. Jumbling them all up then becomes the problem, but that can probably be handled on a merely historical timescale. The elves are the first to develop a technical society capable of intercontinental travel, and have a conquistadore era. They colonize the other continents, take slaves, move slaves around, etc. Eventually, though, the slaves learn enough "elven secrets" to throw off their elven masters and form technological societies of their own.

[psm]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

Personally, I would have elves, dwarves and humans all part of the same species. Its not like they're that different (well if you're going with the DnD versions). Honestly, I see more variations between the different cultures of humans than I do between elves and humans. You could easily explain their different physiologies due to geological isolation or evolving towards a specific enviroment (especially dwarves). Just include plate techtonics or an ice age in the developmental history of your world. The only one I can see being a problem is orcs. I would definitely consider them a different species. However, I wouldn't use neanderthals as their descendants mainly because its still being debated if neanderthals were a different species than homo sapien or just a sub species. Lastly, are you still going to give elves and dwarves a long life? I don't know if you could explain that one scientifically. You might just have to use a suspension of belief.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

Well, the primary driver of evolution is reproduction. As Outsider said the first thing you need is something that would provide some kind of isolation that would allow the race to diverge in particular ways and for there to be various evolutionary pressures that would lead to the various races.

 

Now what you need to decide is what kind of pressure would make it likely that only those people with the features of the final race would make them most likely to reproduce. With dwarves it would have to be something where only those people with good constitution etc would reproduce - the short stature etc could be features inherited alongside the constitution.

 

Long life could be the feature of the elves and other things came with that. It has been posited that if people were not able to breed until they were older that the things that shorten human lifespan might eventually be bred out and lifespan extended. Again other features might develop alongside the long lifespan.

 

I think I would invoke magic to explain the isolation - only the background of the campaign would decide what the evolutionary pressures were.

 

I don't know why psm would balk at orcs being the same species - I would be happy that all species humans/orcs/dwarves/elves came from common stock. It would suggest though that dwarves and elves could interbreed. Perhaps you would be happier with other races coming from human stock - that would explain why humans can interbreed but other races cannot.

[Vondy]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

You could do it, and it might even be a cool world background, but is "evolution" compatible with the genre as a whole? Tolkien has socerously evolved monsters, but they weren't really a product of science as we would explain it. Usually other races (often elder races) have some sort of mystical bent. If that is the case with some of your non-human races - is magical aptitude genetic? Is the force a mystical concept or the result of some weird parasite in the bloodstream, etc? I prefer fantasy worlds have limited scientific explanation and be more, well, fantastical. Sure, things should make sense, including the geography and cultures and whatnot, but once you start down the path of scientific explanation it starts to lose its fantasy feel and begins to resemble science fiction. Still, its an interesting idea. Just my two active points.

[arcady]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

I see more variations between the different cultures of humans than I do between elves and humans.

True.

 

In our own world there are plenty of species that compete with each other over the same niche.

 

With humans, we have managed to remove our competitors before the rise of civilization--so we no longer know exactly what they were like. But this did indeed used to be a multiple intelligent primate world, particularly in light of modern DNA finally ending the debate about Neandertals, which were indeed a different species that likely never intermixed with us.

http://www.archaeology.org/9709/newsbriefs/dna.html

 

Throughout most of our history though there was more than one intelligent ape walking around.

 

So the people who say in so many of these kinds of threads that multiple intelligent species make no sense need to relook at Earth's own past.

 

 

If the two groups had found seperate geography long enough, they might both have risen into civilization. We don't really know why the Neandertals went away, we can only guess we killed them.

 

All it takes for one species to become two is seperation for a time. This can give minor variation such as with different shades of field mice, or something major like the different between African monkeys and New World monkeys - both of which rose up out of proto-simians (similar to Lemurs) who themselves crossed the Atlantic.

 

If it had been Homo Erectus 400,000 years ago that left Africa for Asia, Europe, and the Americas and not Homo Sapien Sapiens who did it 40,000 years ago we might have four seperate species today.

 

(And it is interesting to note there that humans have been in Europe and Asia about as long as they have been in the Americas - the same population settled all three regions after splitting in Central Asia.)

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

In Fahla, most of the races are offshoots of humanity made through magical intervetion. The Dragons engineered the Naga by abducting populations of Cro-Magnon (Which is a Homo Sapien Sapien lacking a BMW and Latte Frappuccino).

 

The Faerir world has bled into the mortal world in places, and where it did Faerie has taken people and left them changed - producing the Fey races such as Centaur, Pixies, and so on.

 

The other non humans came about from the work of men upon their own people - crafting 'beastlings' by magically mixing them with animals.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

Given a world in which magic, other "realms" etc. actually exist, magic and evolution would not necessarily be incompatible. The prolonged separation that others have mentioned, allowing speciation to occur, might have been achieved by some of the racial ancestors finding their way or being taken to one of these other worlds. Another event could allow them to return to their original homeworld after hundreds of thousands of years, now changed by adaptation to a different environment.

[tkdguy]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

The thing is, I like to limit magic. If I can eliminate it all together, even better. That's why I started making humans-only campaigns. But some of my players weren't too happy with that, so I'm looking for a compromise.

[tkdguy]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

Of course, I could make the case of isolation making the subraces distinct. I'll use the Warhammer world as an example. Maybe everyone is of human stock. The elves were isolated in Ulthuan. The dwarfs stayed in the World's Edge Mountains. The Orcs survived in the Badlands (they just painted their faces green before battle, hence the name Greenskins).

 

Do you guys find that exlanation plausible?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

Well, this sunds like a good time to bring up my SciFantasy origin of the species:

 

Start with human.

GE for Space to get Elves.

GE to inhabit all the earth for Dwarves (economical)

Ditto for Halflings

Have Orcs be the 'post apoc freaks'.

 

Now, to have something like this be accidental...

 

Varying Gravity in different places?

 

And Orcs or their equivalent can be your world's equivalent of Neanderthals. Only more brutish, thanks to the combination of a harsh enviroment and the OTHER peoples.

[tkdguy]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

What do you mean by "GE"?

[LoresLost]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

I was looking at this thread earlier and what came to mind was a Canis lupus familiaris or the dog. We (humans) created many breeds of dogs through selective breeding of traits from Canis lupus (the wolf) starting a along time ago (100,000 years?)

 

If an advance native or extraterrestrial group did both selective breeding and physiological manipulations in the distant past then all the classic races could all be Homo Sapien but have a much greater verity then found in humans today. There are hundred breeds of dogs with each breed showing about as much internal verity (in the breed) as the human species as a whole.

 

The breeds of Homo Sapien would be keep from cross breeding by usually deeply seeded and planted morays. And to throw a real wrench into it you should have the "orc" race be the ferel original speice.

 

Just some ramdon thougths on your request.

[Eodin]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

Genetic manipulation makes more sense to me too.

When I was coming up with a background for my FH Might&Magic world, I had to come up with why the spaceship was humans, but Erath has Elves and Dwarves and such as well. I decided that the insane Android caretakers did some genetic manipulation of the humans on board before the pods were dropped on Erath.

Human is the common stock, but the androids created elves, dwarves, halflings, orcs, goblins, and a few other surprises during the millenia of travel to the new world. Because each bio-pod was isolated from the others, they could get away with it.

[psm]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

With humans, we have managed to remove our competitors before the rise of civilization--so we no longer know exactly what they were like. But this did indeed used to be a multiple intelligent primate world, particularly in light of modern DNA finally ending the debate about Neandertals, which were indeed a different species that likely never intermixed with us.

http://www.archaeology.org/9709/newsbriefs/dna.html

 

That was a cool link. I didn't realize that they had isolated neanderthal DNA. It's a little scary to think that if it was ever decided we could actually clone a neanderthal now.

[Outsider]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

The problem with using genetic manipulation as the method by which the different species originated is that it is basically no different than having them originate via magic or divine intervention. The races didnt evolve... they were made.

[Stormraven]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

In a world I'm dreaming up, they aren't the same species at all. Elves, dragons, trolls and goblins all evolved from small hunter saurians who escaped a cataclysm. Humans are separated into three groupings - 'Normal', or 'Common', men; Dawn Men (Neanderthal-like) and 'Great Men', larger and slower than normal men. Gnomes, Orcs and Hobbits are all evolved from other mammal species. Dwarves are the only sentient race deliberately created by the gods - because the gods came into being only after the formation of sentient culture.

[tkdguy]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

I just spoke with my sister, who's a grad student in Anthropology. She said the races would have to become some type of hominid. She's suggesting they evolve from Homo Habilis. But she agrees with me that Neandertals evolve into Orcs.

[dbsousa]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

I like the patron race origin mentioned earlier. The difference between dogs is far greater than might exist between various fantasy races. If an Elder Race bred humans for different uses, they might appear as different as Chihuahuas, Dobermans, Huskies, and Great Danes.

 

My thought on the uses for which they might be bred:

 

Dwarves: Built for work, hauling, digging, building, etc.

Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins: Built for hunting.

Elves: Built for house pets.

Humans: Left wild for breeding stock.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

If you want to get really creepy, start with elves. They were the first race that evolved. With their hugely extended lifespans, they bred the other races (humans, dwarves, etc.) as slave races. Think of how humans in the real world have bred dogs over the past 10,000 years or so. The slave races of the elves have breeds, favored bloodlines, and so on.

[sinanju]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

Okay, this question will most likely crown me science geek of the year, but you guys knew that already.

 

If I were to explain the existence of different humanoid races (elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.) as the product of evolution, how should I go about it?

 

Should they be different strains of Homo Sapiens? Then half-elves and half-orcs would be able to exist.

 

Should they come from different branches of humanity that pre-dated Homo Sapiens Orcs could have evolved from Neanderthals, for example.

 

If elves are the eldest race, could they have evolved from Australopithecus?

 

Keep in mind I'm trying to come up with a scientific explanation of how these races came to be. None of that "created by the gods" or "magical creatures" stuff. They could be aliens, but I don't particularly care for that explanation either.

 

The Anicent Race (humans? dark elves?) came first. They were around for a very, very long time and grew wise in the ways of the world (i.e., science or magic, depending on how you want the gameworld to go). They also grew decadent and cruel. They created all the other races to be their servants and/or playthings.

 

Dwarves were created to be strong, tireless and small enough to work underground in smaller spaces than would be required otherwise.

 

Orcs/Goblins/Ogres/Whatever were created to serve as soldiers or gladiators. "We'll pit armies against one another like a chess game! We'll take our due in blood!"

 

Hobbits/Halfings were created to be house servants, cooks, butlers, etc.

 

Centaurs, Minotaurs and the like were created to be prey animals--they were animalistic and lived in the wild, but had enough elf-level intelligence to make them more interesting to hunt.

 

Elves (or less elves if the Ancients were also elves) were bred to be beautiful playthings.

 

And then the Ancients disappeared. Maybe all at once, maybe over centuries. They're gone, but all the races they created are still around, still well designed for the roles they were created to fill. They may or may not remember their origins.

[tkdguy]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

I don't much care for the thought of the races coming into being by genetic engineering. Thanks for all your ideas, though.

 

My idea was to see whether evolution could take its natural course and still wind up with different races.

 

Here's one of my ideas. I'll limit the races to the Tolkien races: humans, elves, halflings, dwarves, orcs, and trolls.

 

Maybe elves and dwarves evolved from Homo Habilis; orcs and trolls evolved from Neanderthal, and humans and halflings evolved from Homo Sapiens. Maybe the races coming from a common ancestor can still interbreed.So half-elves are the product of elf/dwarf unions, and half-orcs are the product of orc/troll unions. I wouldn't know what to call a human/halfling crossbreed. A gnome, perhaps.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

My idea was to see whether evolution could take its natural course and still wind up with different races.

 

I think the simple answer is yes natural selection could take its course and result in varied species. The requirements are some kind of separation to allow the species to diverge and some selection pressures to force evolution of the traits you want in each race.

 

If you are looking at real world science then the abilities you want the races to have would have far more severe consequences on their look and shape than those abilities would have in a more fantastic setting.

 

Here's one of my ideas. I'll limit the races to the Tolkien races: humans' date=' elves, halflings, dwarves, orcs, and trolls.[/quote']

 

The big thing here is the assumptions you make about each race. What do you want elves to have? In Tolkein they live forever unless they are killed. Dwarves can see in the dark. I'm not sure what abilities Tolkein trolls possess. I think you need to sit down and decide what abilities each race would have different from the others (and like I said above how that has changed their physiology in real-world ways).

 

Maybe elves and dwarves evolved from Homo Habilis; orcs and trolls evolved from Neanderthal' date=' and humans and halflings evolved from Homo Sapiens. Maybe the races coming from a common ancestor can still interbreed.So half-elves are the product of elf/dwarf unions, and half-orcs are the product of orc/troll unions. I wouldn't know what to call a human/halfling crossbreed. A gnome, perhaps.[/quote']

 

Yeah - you set yourself all kinds of definition problems at the start but you might have a better idea of where it all comes from. The inter-breeding is a very complex issue and if you don't sort it out then you'll have players wanting all kinds of cross-bred characters that would be allowed all of the special abilities!

 

 

Doc

[gewing]

Re: Evolution of the races?

 

It is really weird, I started notes on a similar world last week, when I had no internet access and hadn't seen this thread. The main elven culture are kind of like magic using nazis with 5k year life spans.

 

If you want to get really creepy' date=' start with elves. They were the first race that evolved. With their hugely extended lifespans, they bred the other races (humans, dwarves, etc.) as slave races. Think of how humans in the real world have bred dogs over the past 10,000 years or so. The slave races of the elves have breeds, favored bloodlines, and so on.[/quote']