Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

The Sentry is a character from a limited series done by Marvel. Basically, he was the Silver Age Superman of the Marvel U, until the manifestation of his dark side threatened the entire universe, forcing the entire world to forget he ever existed, including him.

 

Good concept, but incomprehensible why or how it would be used in a mainline comic.

 

Combine that with potential Spider and Wolvie issues, and the two pet characters. . .

 

 

Pet characters? Which two? (Depends on what you mean by the term.)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I argue that Spider-Man is a bad fit for an Avenger. He's been an Avengers reservist before, and has shown excellent teamwork skills in the past.

 

Now, Wolverine doesn't even deserve to *EXIST*, much less be a member of the most prestigious super-team on Marvel-Earth.

[Steve]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

You have a good point. When I ran a comics based campaign. I mixed both universes. But most my villains were Marvel's. Outside of Batman' date=' and to an extent Superman, DC has few memorable villains.[/quote']

 

I always thought Darkseid had a certain evil majesty to his villainy, and the Time Trapper can make for an interesting bad guy as well.

[Jhamin]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

You have a good point. When I ran a comics based campaign. I mixed both universes. But most my villains were Marvel's. Outside of Batman' date=' and to an extent Superman, DC has few memorable villains.[/quote']

 

There are a few, but not many

 

-Sinestro

-Gorilla Grod

-Darkseid & minions (who started out seperatly, even if Supes meets them alot)

-Weather Wizard

 

Still, your right. All the DC baddies that jump up do come from the two big books.

 

Almost every long running Marvel book as 5+ memorable baddies.

[Corven_Ren]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Dr. Destoryer = Dr Doom

 

I'm not saying your wrong on this. But If memory serves me correctly. And after going over the old module Day of the Destroyer. Old Doc Destroyer is moe like Dr. Doom + the Red Skull as Destroyer used to be a Nazi.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Pet characters? Which two? (Depends on what you mean by the term.)

 

Luke Cage and Spiderwoman, both characters that have appeared in Bendis' other books.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Not to mention the whole "Utter lack of any even slightly redeeming value" deal with Dr Destroyer.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I argue that Spider-Man is a bad fit for an Avenger. He's been an Avengers reservist before, and has shown excellent teamwork skills in the past.

 

Um...are you arguing that Spidey is a bad fit, or are you arging that he's a good fit? Your two sentences say opposite things. And which Avenger is he a bd fit for, anyway?

 

Now, Wolverine doesn't even deserve to *EXIST*, much less be a member of the most prestigious super-team on Marvel-Earth.

 

Sheesh, save your loathing for a character who actual deserves such spittle and venom. What makes Wolverine such a terrible character? In part, I ask because the venom and hate often directed at him is actually inspired by his fans.

 

As for the Avengers, well, they're not looking very prestigious right now.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Not to mention the whole "Utter lack of any even slightly redeeming value" deal with Dr Destroyer.

 

You're refering to the Destroyer / Doom comparison, right?

[phydaux]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

What makes Wolverine such a terrible character?

 

It isn't the character, it's how he's written. Or rather, how some anoying, unwashed, pimple-infested, dateless fan-boys insist on interprating him.

 

"No, Logan's superior, mutant sense of smell would detect the lubrication in War Machine's armor even if it was in stealth mode. And even if Wolverine couldn't smell War Machine, his superior, mutant sense of hearing would hear the eletrical current coursing through the armor, allowing Wolverine to make a blind, called-shot to War Machine's throat. Since Wolvie's Adamantiun claws are stronger that War Machine's Titanium mesh armor, War Machine would be decapatated..."

 

DC has the Bat-god, Marvel has Logan-god.

 

(BTW, the GM in the ONLY game of the old Marvel RPG I EVER played pulled that EXACT trick on me.)

[assault]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

There are a few, but not many

 

-Sinestro

-Gorilla Grod

-Darkseid & minions (who started out seperatly, even if Supes meets them alot)

-Weather Wizard

 

Still, your right. All the DC baddies that jump up do come from the two big books.

 

Almost every long running Marvel book as 5+ memorable baddies.

 

You've listed at least two from Flash already. Let's add: Vandal Savage (very nasty), Captain Cold (very silly) and, oh, the whole Rogues' Gallery. Let's face it the Rogues are probably more memorable collectively than individually.

 

How about: Professor Zoom, Abra Kadabra and Dr. Alchemy, for characters at the more serious end.

 

OK, the LSH: the Time Trapper (and Glorith), the Fatal Five (Validus, the Emerald Empress...), the Legion of Supervillains (who killed Karate Kid?). Mordru, while tough, doesn't quite rate for me. Instead, I might suggest Evillo of Tartarus, if only for the story with Sugyn, Polar Boy and Matter Eater Lad....

 

Green Lantern: uhh, I haven't read much of his stuff for a long time. Let's see: Sinestro, Star Sapphire, the Manhunters...

 

Golden Age characters:

Solomon Grundy (an old favourite of mine).

The Ultra-Humanite (the Golden Age miniseries should just how scary he can be).

There are a bunch of others that should up in memorable stories, even if they aren't so flash themselves. The Wizard comes to mind, since he was in the "Earth-2 Superman marries Lois" story.

 

New Teen Titans: Brother Blood, Trigon, Deathstroke the Terminator, Terra, H.I.V.E. (possibly the only global criminal conspiracy to ever be defeated!).

 

There's enough stuff there. Granted, there maybe a higher proportion of decent Marvel villains, but, then again, there is a very high proportion of Marvel rubbish as well.

 

And nothing DC currently produces sucks quite so hard as the thousand and one X-titles...

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Originally Posted by Jhamin

There are a few, but not many

 

-Sinestro

-Gorilla Grod

-Darkseid & minions (who started out seperatly, even if Supes meets them alot)

-Weather Wizard

 

You've listed at least two from Flash already. Let's add: Vandal Savage (very nasty), Captain Cold (very silly) and, oh, the whole Rogues' Gallery. Let's face it the Rogues are probably more memorable collectively than individually.

 

How about: Professor Zoom, Abra Kadabra and Dr. Alchemy, for characters at the more serious end.

 

I think very little of the Rogues. Grodd, Zoom, and Savage is about it for Flash's interesting villains.

 

OK, the LSH: the Time Trapper (and Glorith), the Fatal Five (Validus, the Emerald Empress...), the Legion of Supervillains (who killed Karate Kid?). Mordru, while tough, doesn't quite rate for me. Instead, I might suggest Evillo of Tartarus, if only for the story with Sugyn, Polar Boy and Matter Eater Lad....

 

Mordru is the only LSH villain I know; and then because of his JSA run.

 

Green Lantern: uhh, I haven't read much of his stuff for a long time. Let's see: Sinestro, Star Sapphire, the Manhunters...

 

And all Kyle ever had was Effigy, Fatale, Grayven, Nero and the Black Circle. Sad for a 100 issue run.

 

Golden Age characters:

Solomon Grundy (an old favourite of mine).

The Ultra-Humanite (the Golden Age miniseries should just how scary he can be).

There are a bunch of others that should up in memorable stories, even if they aren't so flash themselves. The Wizard comes to mind, since he was in the "Earth-2 Superman marries Lois" story.

 

New Teen Titans: Brother Blood, Trigon, Deathstroke the Terminator, Terra, H.I.V.E. (possibly the only global criminal conspiracy to ever be defeated!).

 

Titans have some good stuff there. JSA less so. DC is more character than villain driven.

 

There's enough stuff there. Granted, there maybe a higher proportion of decent Marvel villains, but, then again, there is a very high proportion of Marvel rubbish as well.

 

And nothing DC currently produces sucks quite so hard as the thousand and one X-titles...

 

X-Titles aren't all bad. But then, few of the X-Men's core villains have been used recently. The point is that the X-Men have many interesting villains easily listed: Magneto, Apocalypse, Mr Sinister, Hellfire Club, Brood, Nimrod, Sentinels, Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Acolytes, Black Tom...

 

Avengers: Loki, Thanos, Ultron, Kang, Morgan Le Fay, Immortus, Kree, Masters of Evil, Grandmaster, Grim Reaper, Count Nefaria....

 

I can't name that many JLA villains (and yes, i read te title)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Um...are you arguing that Spidey is a bad fit, or are you arging that he's a good fit? Your two sentences say opposite things. And which Avenger is he a bd fit for, anyway?

 

Sheesh, save your loathing for a character who actual deserves such spittle and venom. What makes Wolverine such a terrible character? In part, I ask because the venom and hate often directed at him is actually inspired by his fans.

 

As for the Avengers, well, they're not looking very prestigious right now.

 

Sorry, misphrased. Spidey would make a good Avenger.

 

Lessee ... firstly, Wolverine is all attitude, no personality (well, a personality defined as a non-stop series of macho cliche's). He kills far too casually. His origin remains the most obnoxiously convoluted and contradictory thing ever. He's a complete ass with no redeeming values whatsoever, and he's yet another in a long line of 'I'm really a villain, but these heroes let me hang around with them anyway because I boost sales' characters.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

In other words, he's not four-color.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

You're refering to the Destroyer / Doom comparison' date=' right?[/quote']

 

Yep.

[assault]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I can't name that many JLA villains (and yes' date=' i read te title)[/quote']

 

I agree as far as the current JLA go. The only villain that really attracted my attention "recently" was Kanjar Ro, and that ended up as a bit of a letdown. But then, I haven't read the whole run.

 

The original JLA was something else, of course. And the JLI was something else again...

 

Oops. Memorable JLI villains? Oh dear. I've tried very hard to suppress those memories.

 

Let's see: the Scarlet Skier, Mr Nebula, the Injustice League, _those_ penguins, Manga Khan, Funky Flashman, Queen Bee, Jack O'Lantern...

 

Argh! The pain! The PAIN! And it's all your fault!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

In other words' date=' he's not four-color. [/quote']

 

In other words, he's boring.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

In other words' date=' he's boring.[/quote']

 

At some point, the same could be said of almost any comicbook character. They've all had stints with bad writers, and rotten plots, and retcons. There's nothing wrong with Wolverine in general, and when well-written, he's at least as good as any of the other iconic characters.

 

For someone who's a two-dimensional macho arse and a murderous villain, he sure seems to attract stray kids. Good thing he never feels any responsibility towards them. [/sarcasm]

[Jhamin]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I'm not saying your wrong on this. But If memory serves me correctly. And after going over the old module Day of the Destroyer. Old Doc Destroyer is moe like Dr. Doom + the Red Skull as Destroyer used to be a Nazi.

 

I'd say that the Dr. Destroyer from earlier editions was absolutely a Doom with Red Skull influences.

 

I would argue that the current Dr. Destroyer has alot more in common with DarkSeid or Thanos of Titan.

He is all powerful personally, to the point that most heroes generally fight his minions rather than him, and his character history implies a series of summer mega-book crossovers where a zillion heroes team up to defeat his current plot device.

[proditor]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I dunno, I like some of the DC villains more than the Marvel ones.

 

Johnny Sorrow (Shudder...)

Mordru

Darkseid

The General (A great character BEFORE he became functionally indestructible)

White Martians

The Bat Rogue's Gallery

5th dimensional imps

Circe

Legion of Super Villains

The Fatal Five

Brother Blood

 

Now when it comes to themed villains, I generally prefer Marvel. Thanks to Gadgets and Gear, I'm slowly comprising my "homage" team of Wyld Kingdom including such luminaries as The Eel, Porcupine, Er, the...RHino, and some other guys who all have names that desperately need to be changed to protect the innocent.

 

Marvel has had some good world beaters, but for the down and dirty, take this guy out or the world ends villain, I generally prefer DC. As always, YMMV.

[Kristopher]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I'd say that the Dr. Destroyer from earlier editions was absolutely a Doom with Red Skull influences.

 

I would argue that the current Dr. Destroyer has alot more in common with DarkSeid or Thanos of Titan.

He is all powerful personally, to the point that most heroes generally fight his minions rather than him, and his character history implies a series of summer mega-book crossovers where a zillion heroes team up to defeat his current plot device.

 

IMO, a change for the worse.

 

Of course, it seems to me that a good number of the villains in 5e are designed as "takes the whole team to defeat, unless you're playing cosmic-level heroes" world-beaters.

[starblaze]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

Sorry, misphrased. Spidey would make a good Avenger.

 

Lessee ... firstly, Wolverine is all attitude, no personality (well, a personality defined as a non-stop series of macho cliche's). He kills far too casually. His origin remains the most obnoxiously convoluted and contradictory thing ever. He's a complete ass with no redeeming values whatsoever, and he's yet another in a long line of 'I'm really a villain, but these heroes let me hang around with them anyway because I boost sales' characters.

 

Actually, with Wolverine it really depends of who is writing him. His early appearances in the X-Men almost got him kicked off the team because of his reckless attitude. However when Byrne and Claremont took over the book Logan become a much more complex and interesting character. There have also been some other stories concerning the Wolverine that where IMO done really well. Then there have been stories where he is nothing more than a cliche-speaking, bloodthirsty, moron. It really depends on who is doing the writing.

 

Oh, and SpiderMan is a good character but I have always seen him as more of a loner type than a team member. I think it would take away alot of the charm.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

I'd say that the Dr. Destroyer from earlier editions was absolutely a Doom with Red Skull influences.

 

I would argue that the current Dr. Destroyer has alot more in common with DarkSeid or Thanos of Titan.

He is all powerful personally, to the point that most heroes generally fight his minions rather than him, and his character history implies a series of summer mega-book crossovers where a zillion heroes team up to defeat his current plot device.

 

That is only because the only heroes we ever get to see are ridiculously weak for world class superheroing.

 

If all you had to throw at him were 350ers and the occasional inefficiently built 500-600er, Dr Doom would require mass hoards of all the worlds heroes to beat, too.

 

Which is why he *isn't* faced with the hoard of wimps; he's faced with the Fantastic Four.

 

Completely aside from this, any comparison with Thanos breeds thoughts that Dr Destroyer is as powerful as Thanos. He is not, never has been, and never will be.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

IMO, a change for the worse.

 

Of course, it seems to me that a good number of the villains in 5e are designed as "takes the whole team to defeat, unless you're playing cosmic-level heroes" world-beaters.

 

No, they are merely designed to require teams to oppose them that are *actually powerful.*

 

If you try and take Gravitar on with 350 point heroes, you deserve the curbstomping you get.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Official Champs Uni = Marvel Uni?

 

But it is also a fact that most Champions games are TEAM focused. How many campaigns are the equivalent of a solo title? Most Champions campaigns are the equivalent of an Avengers/Defenders/Alpha Flight/JLA/JSA style comic book.

 

And in those books the hero's fight either world shaking villains (such as Mechanon, Dr Destroyer, Menton, Gravitar, or the Warlord) or teams (such as EuroStar, PSI, or the Ultimates) or organizations (such as Viper or Demon).

 

Most of the CU's "solo villains" are a match for only one or two heroes at a time; so they get cast in the role of impromptu teams.

 

What the CU seems to lack is second tier criminal masterminds equivalent to the Marvel Universe's Baron Zemo, Imus Champion, Egghead, Mad Thinker, or Mystique

 

The type of villains who hire various villains to flesh out their teams. Of the potential lower tier masterminds in CKC most lack this aspect: Black Harlequin, Black Paladin, Anubis, Holocast all are solo operators.

 

We have no Dr Octopus or Beetle types that hire other solo villains to be thier gang or team.