Wyrm Ouroboros Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Remember' date=' Angel's blood heals any wound it touches. Don't ask me why, it just does.[/quote'] That's recent. (And wasn't that Cannonball's brother?) Fedifensor's got the concept spot-on, IMO; if you actually look at what he does in the funny pages, Angel was a 350-point character in a 250-point comic. Woefully underutilized, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? The healing ability came along even later than the metallic wings. Poor guy has to spend xp on out of concept powers to keep up with those new munchkin players! Many comic characters would never make it in a Hero game because they lack either offensive or defensive powers (or both) mandated by the standard Hero Supers structure. Consider: - Cyclops (Storm, Sunfire, Banshee) has normal human PD - we need to kludge in the protective costume to make him bulletproof. Many other characters rely on DCV rather than defenses (Beast, Nightcrawler) - Like Angel, Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde have no "campaign standard DC" attacks. Maneuverable spies don't have the combat chops for a typical Hero game. Here's a thought: drop Cyclops down to a 10d6 maximum EB, and drop everyone else's attacks below that to compensate. Now drop defenses to the point that the low power characters can generally still have some effect (call that 8 - 12 so a 4d6 attack has some impact), remembering that Cyke would rarely use his full power beam because it was too lethal. Reduce DEX and SPD so low DEX Supers have an 8 - 10 DEX and a 2 SPD, just like anyone else. Now you have a low powered Supers game where you can get by on a single mutant power - be that the ability to fly or project optic energy blasts - with no other enhancements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? You could always give original recipe Angel a hefty ranged attack for throwing his wallet at someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Here's something that might be interesting: we should build the 1963 versions of the original X-Men as 200 point Teen Champions characters. I suspect that they would work out pretty well. We'd need some benchmarks for attacks and defences - they shouldn't immediately die if Cyclops hits them at full power, for example. (Most of them probably should take some body though - Iceman would be the only exception). With the same exception, they should all probably be stunned, too. Yes, Cyclops is a glass cannon, with an attack bigger than his defences can handle... Jean would be interesting. In those days female characters tended to draw the short straw, and she was no exception. On the other hand, it would be quite reasonable to throw a bunch of points into her Ego and Mental Defence. Since she only started out with telekinesis, these points would be "invisible". She would appear to be the weakest character at first, but would grow her telepathic powers quickly enough. Any more ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pól Ruadh Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? The original Angel was actually a bit tougher than other people have been giving him credit for. He's definitely a speedster with martial arts - he's had extensive combat training' date=' as evidenced by the early danger room sessions.[/quote'] Also, as 'The Avenging Angel', he was active as a crimefighter before any of the other X-Men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narratio Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? 200pt characters? Hang on a minute Ah hah! My Champions I & II books, now let me see... Yep. 200pts is the recommended level to start playing. Cool! The good old days are back again, pass me the stat sheets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Here's something that might be interesting: we should build the 1963 versions of the original X-Men as 200 point Teen Champions characters. I suspect that they would work out pretty well. We'd need some benchmarks for attacks and defences - they shouldn't immediately die if Cyclops hits them at full power, for example. (Most of them probably should take some body though - Iceman would be the only exception). With the same exception, they should all probably be stunned, too. Yes, Cyclops is a glass cannon, with an attack bigger than his defences can handle... Jean would be interesting. In those days female characters tended to draw the short straw, and she was no exception. On the other hand, it would be quite reasonable to throw a bunch of points into her Ego and Mental Defence. Since she only started out with telekinesis, these points would be "invisible". She would appear to be the weakest character at first, but would grow her telepathic powers quickly enough. Any more ideas? I'd be up for it, but if you are limiting it to 1963, that's only two issues to work with. From my recollections, Jean was actually pretty versatile with her TK even in the beginning. She didn't have all that much TK STR back then, but she knew to put it to good use. I assume she had a pretty decent Power Skill roll too. Unfortunately, she didn't add much of anything else to the team beyond her powers. She had her looks, her skills as a fashion model and her ability to cause strife within the team (she was the love interest for Warren, Scott and technically Prof X). But she had no other appreciable skills... and was so shy that she probably couldn't justify most of the social skills that you would give to a Face. In any event, Jean didn't really get her Telepathy until issue 66. At that point Havok and Polaris were already on the team, Iceman had matured considerably in power and the X-men were long since out of their old yellow uniforms (which happened in issue 39). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? If I had to write him up to be competitive with the other X-Men, I'd do the following. * 25 STR (based on his Wikipedia entry, he's at top human ability, which makes a 25 feasible) Current Warren, sure. I'd put him in the 15-20 range starting off. He got stronger as he matured... and then much stronger once he was Death/Archangel. * 26 or 29 DEX, as he could dodge even better than Beast. Definitely the highest DEX character on the original team I'd probably disagree here. He's got a pretty high DEX, but he's only really shown to be that agile while flying. Movement Skill Levels or limited DCV skills levels would seem to represent this better (possibly DCV with RSR: Acrobatics). Of course, for me it ultimately comes down to how much DEX you give Beast... * Very high combat move. I wouldn't buy many multiples of noncombat move past the free x2, but I would give him 25" or 30" combat Flight. Maybe even give him the advantage of No Turn Mode, since he could basically turn on a dime. I'd have to look back and see what his top speed was back in the early days. Both Quicksilver and the Human Torch were explicitly faster than him though. That said, No Turn mode might be appropriate. He outmaneuvered Quicksilver in their first encounter (ran him right into a wall if I remember correctly). Warren is supposed to be a very crafty flier, which can be one of the things that is tricky to simulate. Enhanced Senses (Sight) He's got at least +16 Telescopic for Normal Sight. * Some sort of multipower for his various combat tricks, such as the wing buffet. He could also generate winds strong enough to knock a man off his feet just be flapping his wings * Movement-based Martial Arts (every maneuver has the FMove property) with extra damage classes (and/or +velocity/5 to damage). Most maneuvers would give a bonus to DCV, making it so the average foe would only hit him on an 8- roll. He did a LOT of Passing Disarms and Flying Grabs. But even without extra DC's, he's gotta have at least a 9d6 Passing Strike. That's nothing to sneeze at considering that he also has an excellent Teamwork roll and was frequently shown to coordinate attacks, especially with Scott and Hank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Many comic characters would never make it in a Hero game because they lack either offensive or defensive powers (or both) mandated by the standard Hero Supers structure. Consider: - Cyclops (Storm, Sunfire, Banshee) has normal human PD - we need to kludge in the protective costume to make him bulletproof. Many other characters rely on DCV rather than defenses (Beast, Nightcrawler) Mutants are, generally physically tougher than normal humans of comparable build. Old Marvel Game claimed this was in the genetics (they got a bonus to Endurance), but it may well just be the benefit of being a hero (Combat Luck and similar constructs). Regardless, you don't HAVE to make them glass cannons when just about every one of them has walked away from injuries that would kill any normal man. - Like Angel, Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde have no "campaign standard DC" attacks. Maneuverable spies don't have the combat chops for a typical Hero game. What's the campaign standard here though? First of all, their main powers are UAA, Kitty's massively so. In addition, they both have potent NND attacks: Nightcrawler's disorienting/nauseating teleportation effect and Kitty's disruption touch. Plus they could both be much more ruthless if tey needed to be: Nightcrawler can teleport people's heads right off their bodies or port them into a solid object, he just doesn't do it because of his CVK. Kitty is similarly deadly. However, ignoring that sort of thing, Shadowcat is a extremely skilled hand to hand combatant that can keep up with the likes of Wolverine and Silver Samurai. Nightcrawler has been show to break very thick wooden beams with his Karate skills, so he's no slouch there either. He's supposed to be even better with his swords (which he admittedly doesn't carry anymore). His Teleporting Martial Throw is devastating, especially when he BAMFs a few hundred feet up before tossing you. Might not be as simple as a massive DC Optic Blast, but there's a lot of potential there depending on how it's all built and used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pól Ruadh Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? I'd be up for it, but if you are limiting it to 1963, that's only two issues to work with. From my recollections, Jean was actually pretty versatile with her TK even in the beginning. She didn't have all that much TK STR back then, but she knew to put it to good use. I assume she had a pretty decent Power Skill roll too. You'll have to remember, though, that Jean also had that whole TK/Force wall Backlash thingie that had Sue Storm fainting anytime a fly landed on one of her force fields (not that she had them by 1963, but you get my drift). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? That didn't last too long though. I think Sue was the FF member who knockled the Hulk out before their issue numbers were in the triple digits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? First of all, their main powers are UAA, Kitty's massively so. In addition, they both have potent NND attacks: Nightcrawler's disorienting/nauseating teleportation effect and Kitty's disruption touch. Plus they could both be much more ruthless if tey needed to be: Nightcrawler can teleport people's heads right off their bodies or port them into a solid object, he just doesn't do it because of his CVK. Kitty is similarly deadly. However, ignoring that sort of thing, Shadowcat is a extremely skilled hand to hand combatant that can keep up with the likes of Wolverine and Silver Samurai. Nightcrawler has been show to break very thick wooden beams with his Karate skills, so he's no slouch there either. He's supposed to be even better with his swords (which he admittedly doesn't carry anymore). His Teleporting Martial Throw is devastating, especially when he BAMFs a few hundred feet up before tossing you. Quite correct. Shadowcat (a teenage mutant ninja!) and Nightcrawler are both highly competent martial artists. Heck, every X-Man is at least a halfway decent martial artists; the ones without inherently destructive powers like Nightcrawler and Shadowcat tend to be better at it than those who can rely on their powers for offense, like Cyclops. I'd put Angel in that category as well. To reference an above subject: I'd give the Beast a 29 DEX. Angel probably gets a 23, but that metric squidload of flight levels as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapsedgamer Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Also' date=' as 'The Avenging Angel', he was active as a crimefighter before any of the other X-Men.[/quote'] The Avenging Angel was a different character. He was a street-level vigilante similar to a Daredevil concept that was created back when Marvel was still Timely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? The Avenging Angel was a different character. He was a street-level vigilante similar to a Daredevil concept that was created back when Marvel was still Timely. Well, according to Wikipedia, Warren Worthington III took on the Avenging Angel moniker before joining the X-Men. Possibly he took the name from the original Timely character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Warren's backstory has him as a winged crimefighter for a brief period before he was recruited by Prof X. He also carried a gas gun which the Prof made him give up (IIRC, the gas had an impact on mental processes, which was driving Warren towards greater violence). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Just for the heck of it I just took 10 minutes off work and wrote up a rough, early X-Men Angel. He comes to 262 points with no Disads worked out yet. I don't have my books with me so some costs may be off, especially for his martal arts. How does this look? Cost CHA Val ------------------------- 5 STR 15 39 DEX 23 16 CON 18 6 BODY 13 3 INT 13 0 EGO 10 8 PRE 18 3 COM 16 3 PD 6 1 ED 5 17 SPD 5 0 REC 7 0 END 36 0 STUN 30 -------------------------- 85 Cost Powers ------------------------ 17 X-Men Uniform: 10 PD 10 ED Armor (30 Active Points), OIF (-1/2), Activates 15- (-1/4) 37 Wings: 20” Flight, 1/2 END Cost (+1/4), x4 NCM (55 Active Points), Restrainable (-1/2) 25 Wing Buffets: Multipower, 50-Point Powers, All Slots Restrainable (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2) u2 1) 5d6 Energy Blast, Double Knockback (+3/4), Reduced END Cost (+1/4) (50 Active Points), Restrainable (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2) (25 Real Cost) u1 2) 4d6 HTH Attack, 0 END Cost (+1/2) (30 Active Points), Restrainable (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), HTH Attack (-1/2) (12 Real Cost) 12 +16 to Range Modifiers for Sight Sense Group 3 +3 to PER Rolls for Normal Sight ------------------------------ 97 Cost Martial Arts 4 Martial Strike 4 Defensive Strike 4 Martial Block 5 Flying Dodge 5 Passing Grab 5 Passing Disarm 4 Martial Throw ---------------------- 31 Cost Talents -------------------------- 6 3 PD 3 ED Combat Luck 2 Lightning Reflexes: +1 to go first with all actions ---------------------------- 8 Cost Perks ----------------------------- 15 Wealth 3 Reputation: Ultra-Rich Guy -------------------------- 18 Cost Skills ----------------------------- 6 +3 with Flight 3 +1 with Martial Arts 3 Acrobatics 14- 3 Breakfall 14- 2 Persuasion 11- 2 Seduction 11- 1 KS: Wealth and Its Ways 8- 1 KS: Mutant Threats 8- 2 High Society 11- ------------------------------------- 23 262 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenn Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? GM: Okay. Who do you want to play. Girl: A detective. A pretty girl detective. But her boyfriend is a gorilla. GM: A big bruiser of a guy? Girl: No. Well, yeah, but no. I mean a real gorilla. The primate in Africa. GM: Uhm. Girl: But he can talk, and he lives in the city and draws comic books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenbriar Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Nice play on Angel and the Ape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Just for the heck of it I just took 10 minutes off work and wrote up a rough, early X-Men Angel. He comes to 262 points with no Disads worked out yet. I don't have my books with me so some costs may be off, especially for his martal arts. How does this look? Cost CHA Val ------------------------- 5 STR 15 39 DEX 23 16 CON 18 6 BODY 13 3 INT 13 0 EGO 10 8 PRE 18 3 COM 16 3 PD 6 1 ED 5 17 SPD 5 0 REC 7 0 END 36 0 STUN 30 -------------------------- 85 Cost Powers ------------------------ 17 X-Men Uniform: 10 PD 10 ED Armor (30 Active Points), OIF (-1/2), Activates 15- (-1/4) 37 Wings: 20” Flight, 1/2 END Cost (+1/4), x4 NCM (55 Active Points), Restrainable (-1/2) 25 Wing Buffets: Multipower, 50-Point Powers, All Slots Restrainable (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2) u2 1) 5d6 Energy Blast, Double Knockback (+3/4), Reduced END Cost (+1/4) (50 Active Points), Restrainable (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2) (25 Real Cost) u1 2) 4d6 HTH Attack, 0 END Cost (+1/2) (30 Active Points), Restrainable (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), HTH Attack (-1/2) (12 Real Cost) 12 +16 to Range Modifiers for Sight Sense Group 3 +3 to PER Rolls for Normal Sight ------------------------------ 97 Cost Martial Arts 4 Martial Strike 4 Defensive Strike 4 Martial Block 5 Flying Dodge 5 Passing Grab 5 Passing Disarm 4 Martial Throw ---------------------- 31 Cost Talents -------------------------- 6 3 PD 3 ED Combat Luck 2 Lightning Reflexes: +1 to go first with all actions ---------------------------- 8 Cost Perks ----------------------------- 15 Wealth 3 Reputation: Ultra-Rich Guy -------------------------- 18 Cost Skills ----------------------------- 6 +3 with Flight 3 +1 with Martial Arts 3 Acrobatics 14- 3 Breakfall 14- 2 Persuasion 11- 2 Seduction 11- 1 KS: Wealth and Its Ways 8- 1 KS: Mutant Threats 8- 2 High Society 11- ------------------------------------- 23 262 Far as I know early X-men uniforms weren't bulletproof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? When did Xavier upgrade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? After the GM gave out the first batch of XPs, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenn Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Frankly, I think the 5 SPD seems a little high. As does the extra NCM multiplier of his flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? After the GM gave out the first batch of XPs' date=' I think.[/quote'] Well..honestly...most of them probably have combat luck instead of armored outfits. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? Good work Vestnik! Since I suggested a 200 point limit, I'm going to go through and see where I would shave points. That doesn't imply your design is wrong, of course. Cost CHA Val ------------------------- 5 STR 15 39 DEX 23 ... 6 BODY 13 ... 8 PRE 18 ... 17 SPD 5 All of these could be trimmed. 10 STR is high for a teenager, and would allow him to carry a teammate around. 20 DEX would be OK, with a bit of Lightning Reflexes. 10 BODY would be fine. 15 PRE max. Possibly less. He's basically a teenager, although one with wings. 4 SPD would be adequate. Cost Powers ------------------------ 17 X-Men Uniform: 10 PD 10 ED Armor (30 Active Points), OIF (-1/2), Activates 15- (-1/4) Other people have queried this. I agree with them. Cut it out and rely on Combat Luck. 12 +16 to Range Modifiers for Sight Sense Group 3 +3 to PER Rolls for Normal Sight Shave some points here. The rest is fine, although getting to 200 points might require applying the razor some more. It would be nice to have a look at at least some early X-Men stories to have a look at their abilities and their opponents. Obviously Magneto was pretty tough from the beginning, and it might be necessary to consider his abilities when designing theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Angel, the worst original character concept ever? When did Xavier upgrade? That depends. From memory, the first training suits were normal cloth affairs. Eventually, they got upgraded to Unstable Molecules. But that didn't come till the FF were actual allies. The X-men were secretive and oft misunderstood lot in the beginning The later damage resistant costume tech was developed by Forge once he joined the team, so that's a good 20 years of real world time later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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