To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

[Tech]

Generally, I agree with Steve's answers in the Hero System 5th Ed Rules Questions and even when I don't, I generally defer to house rules of the campaign. However, this time I felt torn enough between whether to agree or disagree to ask what other's felt about it.

 

Now, specifically, in answer to MikeyMitchell's question about being hit by multiple Drain attacks by different people (trying to get this exactly) Steve said:

Each Drain affects a character separately — they don’t all lump together for purposes of regaining the lost points. Regardless of whether the Drains come from a single or multiple attackers, track each use of Drain separately. The character recovers 5 points/Turn from each Drain separately either in Post-Segment 12 (standard method) or 12 Segments after a given Drain affected him (optional method).[/Quote]

 

I'm wondering about this. Damage from NND, AVLD, EB, RKA, HKA, Ego attacks is indeed lumped together (after defenses). One hit from two different opponents doing 10 Stun each after defenses will lower Stun 20 pts. You will only get one Recovery against the 20 Stun, not two Recoveries against the 10 individual attacks although one could say 'Just keep taking Recoveries'.

Unless I'm mistaken, Mind Control or Telepathy are not lumped together for total purposes; each are an individual attack.

 

So, I'm wondering if several Power Drains should be treated as seperate attacks (post twelve - get as many 5 pt returns as attacks) or lumped together (get one 5 pt return).

 

I very well couldn't ask Steve in that particular thread his reasoning on the answer so I started this. I wonder what others think about it and if perhaps Steve would grace me with the reasoning on his answer.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

No, Steve is right. You are talking about Ability Damage and not Stun or Body. To whit each power is bought with an effect called FADE RATE. Thus the effects of those powers reduce in accordance with their own set of rules. They do not stack or otherwise interact with other Drains, Transfers or even Suppresses. Their effects fade according to their particular power build.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I see three tiers here:

 

(a) I have been drained from two or more stats or powers. Each stat or power recovers5 5 points at each PS 12. This makes sense to me, and I agree with that.

 

( I have been drained from the same stat by two or more diofferent opponents. Should I get 5 points back each turn, or five points in respect of each opponent? I could go either way on this. 5 points each turn makes for simple bookkeeping, but what if one opponent had "delayed recovery - 1 minute" and the other did not? Do I get 5 a turn until I recover all the stats lost to the first opponent? If that takes 5 turns, when do I get my first "1 per minute" recovery? I could live with either approach here. I favour 5 per turn (and, with delayed time, the shortest time delay recovers first, and the next begins to recover when the faster increment is recovered in full). But 5 per attacker wouldn't break my heart.

 

© One opponent hits me multiple times with a drain from one stat. Let's say he hit me 5 times. Should I recover 5 points per turn, or 25 (5 points per turn per attack)? Here, I think it should be like any other attack. You don't recover BOD at REC/ month for each wound - you recover total BOD. You don't recover STUN from each attack - you recover total STUN. And you shouldn't recover stats from each drain. If you're down 25 STR, you should recover 5 points per turn.

 

So I would say I disagree with Steve's ruling. I can't say it overly surprises me, however. 5e seems to me to make pretty much every Adjustment Power ruling favour weakening these abilities. They had problems due to some overpowering in 4e, and now the pendulum seems to swing too far the other way.

[Tech]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

No, Steve is right. You are talking about Ability Damage and not Stun or Body. To whit each power is bought with an effect called FADE RATE. Thus the effects of those powers reduce in accordance with their own set of rules. They do not stack or otherwise interact with other Drains, Transfers or even Suppresses. Their effects fade according to their particular power build.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Mmm, didn't say he was wrong, more like questioning the reason behind it. Excellent points, there Hawksmoor.

 

Now, playing the devil's advocate, it is true that they are indeed fade at the Fade Rate, yet it could also be suggested that two identical attacks with identical fade rates could allow the attacks to add together. Also, whether it's Ability Damage or Stun Damage, it's still a damaging attack versus, oh, Mind Control which I would consider non-damaging (although consequences of the Mind Control could change that.)

 

I'm not so much disagreeing here but more like ironing out all the kinks in my train of thought.

[MitchellS]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I agree with Hugh on this one, on everything he said. 5E has really tilted the pendulum away from logic when it comes to adjustment powers.

 

I would play it if Leech drains strength five times I consider it one attack with one recovery. If Herculon and Leech each drain strength once I consider it two attacks with two recoveries. If they both drain me multiple times it's still just two recoveries.

[Blue]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

This sounds like a lot of extra work, but I tend to agree with Steve's assesment of the powers. I think it's more right than STUN and BODY damage for that matter.

 

BODY and STUN are kind of odd anyway, in the same way that Hit Points are odd. If in real life you were kicked in the gut AND you got a bruise on your right arm, you'd recover from them simultaneously over time. But in RPGs, for ease of bookkeeping, you recover from the sum of the damage.

 

If I hit you in the head with a pipe, and the guy next to you not only gets hit on the head with the pipe but also gets bruises and contusions all over his arms from defending himself, assuming your hits to the head are the same and you have the same metabolism, you'd recover from the head wound about the same time, while his brusies would have vanished long before then.

 

I'm saying that STUN, BODY and Hit Points are not a perfect way of doing things to begin with so I wouldn't consider it a fair comparison. I've long considered that if I ran a D&D campaign I'd make people note HP injuries seperately so they can recover from them simultaneously and have heals applied to them seperately (for faster in-game healing time).

[Hawksmoor]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Mmm, didn't say he was wrong, more like questioning the reason behind it. Excellent points, there Hawksmoor.

 

Now, playing the devil's advocate, it is true that they are indeed fade at the Fade Rate, yet it could also be suggested that two identical attacks with identical fade rates could allow the attacks to add together. Also, whether it's Ability Damage or Stun Damage, it's still a damaging attack versus, oh, Mind Control which I would consider non-damaging (although consequences of the Mind Control could change that.)

 

I'm not so much disagreeing here but more like ironing out all the kinks in my train of thought.

 

OK, for me going allow with MitchlS's answer, multiple applications of the *same* power result in only one recovery at the defined level and fade rate. Sequential applications of *different* powers result in a book-keeping nightmare that is 5 points of drained ability per fade rate *per* adjustment power applied. 2 powers two recoveries etc; etc; ad naseum...

 

Meaning to me the VIPER STR draining rifles are *separate* attacks recovering separately at the end of Post 12 every phase, and Herculon's sapping of 45 of my STR Characteristic over 3 Attacks is one recovery every Post 12.

 

Hawksmoor

[simplygnome]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Considering Drains have a huge in game effect against a limited form of defense (compared to PD/ED that is) I have no problem with giving them multiple recoveries.

 

Sure 12d6 damage is a lot, but 6d6 Str drain (using 60 point powers as example) could be game breaking for certain characters (replace Str with Dex or Ego,, depending on character build). Damage is just damage and can be delt with in many ways, but ability drain will continue hindering your ability to fight.

 

If my average martial artist has 23 STR. then one average hit from the drain (18 points of effect) will put him to 5. If hes hit again, he'll be dropped to 0. Certaintly Id let him take a recovery for both. That same 18 points is 36 endurance. A few hits with that and your outta luck baby! Not everyone has scads of power defense lying around, and even with the extra recovery, its still very effective.

 

It all seems to balance for me....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Sure 12d6 damage is a lot, but 6d6 Str drain (using 60 point powers as example) could be game breaking for certain characters (replace Str with Dex or Ego,, depending on character build). Damage is just damage and can be delt with in many ways, but ability drain will continue hindering your ability to fight.

 

If my average martial artist has 23 STR. then one average hit from the drain (18 points of effect) will put him to 5. If hes hit again, he'll be dropped to 0. Certaintly Id let him take a recovery for both. That same 18 points is 36 endurance. A few hits with that and your outta luck baby! Not everyone has scads of power defense lying around, and even with the extra recovery, its still very effective.

 

Assuming typical MA defenses, a 12d6 EB will commonly STUN the poor MA, which is the end of him anyway. At 5 STR, he can still bounce around at full DCV (even at +5 by using his Martial Dodge) and likely wiat out the four turns it takes to get his STR back. So the two aren't fully comparable. And that 5 STR comes back EVERY turn, unlike the STUN which will not come back until GM Option if the opposition gets a couple of hits in while you're Stunned.

 

It sure would make +1/4 for "once per minute" a lot more attractive - you can just recover nothing until the combat's over, thanks.

 

I assume, by the way, that this cuts both ways. If you're hit 3 times with an Aid, you would lose 15 points per turn, not just 5.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Totally different mechanics Hugh.

 

Adjustment powers are still IMO one of the nastiest parts of the HERO system. In fact I so dislike them personally, my Players are relatively safe from them since I hesistate to use them more than say once or twice a campaign.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Meaning to me the VIPER STR draining rifles are *separate* attacks recovering separately at the end of Post 12 every phase' date=' and Herculon's sapping of 45 of my STR Characteristic over 3 Attacks is one recovery every Post 12.[/quote']

 

I'd be inclined to call the rifle the "same attack". Otherwise, we get into the question of whether, if struck by VIPER Agent #1 for a STR drain, then struck by Agent 15 who picked up Agent 1's STR drain rifle after his own weapon was destroyed, gets 5 or 10 STR back. "The same rifle attacked, but it was a different agent".

 

As for accumulations of damage vs separate healing, is it only the last punch that takes down a boxer? Does a person shot three times and in critical condition recover faster than one who was shot once and left in critical condition? Blood loss accumulates, even if each puncture heals at the same pace.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Totally different mechanics Hugh.

 

Adjustment powers are still IMO one of the nastiest parts of the HERO system. In fact I so dislike them personally, my Players are relatively safe from them since I hesistate to use them more than say once or twice a campaign.

 

Hawksmoor

 

One might argue this infrequent usage renders you a poor choice to judge the relative effectiveness of the power. In any case, if you recover once for each hit, I suspect that +1/4 "delay to once per minute" advantage will become a lot more valuable.

 

In fact, considerably more valuable than +1/4. But that's OK, since this also renders Autofire and Sweep/Rapid Fire much less useful on adjustment powers, so it all evens out in the end.

[The Hyborian]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I would go with Steve's answer- mostly. I would let a single attacker throwing a singpe power "lump" their drain damage. If Captain Taser zaps the villian multiple times with his taser touch to drain stun, I would add the total drains together and have them recover at whatever rate the power allowed recovery. If Captain Taser then pulled out another gadget that disrupted the villian's balance (best bought as a drain against Dex) that drain would recover seperatly. If Captain Taser's sidekick Tear Gas Boy also hit the same villian with a stun drain, that would have to be tracked seperatly, and would recover seperatly as well.

 

I dont buy the argument that we should lump adjustment power damage because other forms of damage do so. The reason is that adjustment powers have special rules for how you recover from them. By overt definition they work differently.

 

T.H.

[TheEmerged]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I've always run it that they "recover" as a single stack, with the quicker fade rate drains coming off first.

 

snippy and unneccessary crack deleted by poster

[Sean Waters]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Has anyone actually been running it so that multiple drains recover simultaneously? I know I haven't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Has anyone actually been running it so that multiple drains recover simultaneously? I know I haven't.

 

Drains of multiple abilities yes. Each ability recovers 5 CP per time increment. But 7 STUN drains (from the same guy or seven different guys) we run as 5 REC per time increment. I suspect most of us were surprised by Steve's answer - but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has been using that approach (specifically, in hearing how often Adjustment powers are used in their games, and how often they lack the +1/4 "1 rec per minute" advantage)

[tesuji]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I haven't ever player drains recovery the way steve suggests.

 

However, i can say this: his ruling creates a single answer that can be expressed in a few sentences that explains every case clearly. That makes for a good rule in and of itself.

 

If one accepts that thats not how it should work, then the rules become much bigger. You suddenly have to handle:

1. multiple shots from the exact same power from the same guy affetcting the same stat.

2. multiple shots from very similar power from the same guy but with different fade rathes affetcing the same stat. (slow fade multi slot for example)

3. same as 1 but affecting two different stats.

4. same as 2 but affecting different stats.

5. same as one but the drains coming from different enemies.

6. same as 2 but coming from different enemies.

 

Would your answers vary depending on whether the powers were the exact same sfx, similar sfx or totally different sfx? Why would my strength sapping drug fade slower because the guy was also under my fatigue spell?

 

Also, would your answers change any if there were AIDs involved, the power not the affliction? Would two different aid to strength from two different sources of two different sfx both having boosted strength to their own individual max fade as one lump sum losing only 5 cp between them or would you treat them individually, each fading at their own pace?

 

I think each of us has our own individual answers for each of these and have probably ruled on the fly for ages, so changing things seems odd, but there is a big difference between my on the fly judgement in my case and writing rules to cover all these cases.

 

How much space do you want devoted to specifically handling "multiple drains?"

 

I gota say, from a rules vantage point, making a simple "one rule that covers all the same" like steve did here and then going for the usual out of "common sense, dramatic sense, and sense of balance" allowing the Gm to make reasonable choices in specific cases, sounds like good design.

 

if i could find any fault with steve's answer, it was leaving out his normal "sense. sense. sense" closing caveat.

[Kristopher]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Has anyone actually been running it so that multiple drains recover simultaneously? I know I haven't.

 

I haven't -- especially if they're mulitple applications of the same power.

[pinecone]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I haven't done this in the past...and I don't think I plan to in the future...but I HATE book keeping, so that has a lot to do with it, like as not....

[atlascott]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Thank goodness none of my players ever get beyond wanting to reproduce fairly pedestrian super wpoers. Even my rules lawyer only wants the biggest killing attack he can get...

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Has anyone actually been running it so that multiple drains recover simultaneously? I know I haven't.

I haven't, nor has anyone I know. And I use plenty of Adjustment Powers (and so do many of those I game with). This ruling smells like a brain fart on Steve Long's part.

 

Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Bad Luck Incredibly Convoluted Situations Man, or BLICS Man for short. T'other day I was walking down the street, minding my own business. People were staring at me because of the funny costume I was wearing. When suddenly, my arch-nemesis, The Mad Drainer jumped out and Drained 15 Points of my STR! Before I could react, another evil villain, The Evil Villainous Adjuster drained another 10 points from my STR! As if that wasn't bad enough, the Crazy Mimic came along and switch his mimic VPP to mimic The Mad Drainer's Drain, and then Drained another 13 points of my STR. Predictably at this point, the psychotic, futuristic gun-wielding Futuristic Gun Wielder, shot me with his Autofire Drain gun, hitting me three times for 3, 5, and 7 STR, respectively. Fortunately for me, my good buddy, the Faithful Aider happened to be there and Aided my STR for 20 points. And by some stroke of luck, the Helpful Helper was also there, and he Aided my STR by another 12 points. My STR was then down by 21 from where it normally is.

 

What happened to my STR during Post-12? And each subsequent Post-12?

[simplygnome]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I haven't, nor has anyone I know. And I use plenty of Adjustment Powers (and so do many of those I game with). This ruling smells like a brain fart on Steve Long's part.

 

Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Bad Luck Incredibly Convoluted Situations Man, or BLICS Man for short. T'other day I was walking down the street, minding my own business. People were staring at me because of the funny costume I was wearing. When suddenly, my arch-nemesis, The Mad Drainer jumped out and Drained 15 Points of my STR! Before I could react, another evil villain, The Evil Villainous Adjuster drained another 10 points from my STR! As if that wasn't bad enough, the Crazy Mimic came along and switch his mimic VPP to mimic The Mad Drainer's Drain, and then Drained another 13 points of my STR. Predictably at this point, the psychotic, futuristic gun-wielding Futuristic Gun Wielder, shot me with his Autofire Drain gun, hitting me three times for 3, 5, and 7 STR, respectively. Fortunately for me, my good buddy, the Faithful Aider happened to be there and Aided my STR for 20 points. And by some stroke of luck, the Helpful Helper was also there, and he Aided my STR by another 12 points. My STR was then down by 21 from where it normally is.

 

What happened to my STR during Post-12? And each subsequent Post-12?

 

As I stated in TRL's post "Drain Drain go Away", I do NOT think that the rules meant to apply to Aids and Transfers, simply because they differ from Drains in that they have a point CAP that they can go up to....

 

You can find it here if youre interested...

 

Now, my take on the situation is thus:

 

You would LOSE 10 points of STR during the post segment 12, because thats its fade rate, unless otherwise stated (5 for each)....Now if there were MULTIPLE applications of a single AID, which is NOT the case, then they would all total only at a 5/turn rate (unless bought for lower).

 

You would then RECOVER 28 Points of STR due to all of the drains fading away: 5 from the Mad Drainer, 5 from the Adjuster, 5 from the Mimic and the 5, 5, and 3 from the Gun Weilder (that last WOULD be five but it was only a total of 3...one has 0 left and the first has 2)...

 

You would then be 3 points down from your norm...

 

Turn after lose another 10, gain 17, with a net of 7, so youd be at 4 above normal

 

Then lose 7 (5 and the remaining 2) and then gain 8 ( 5 from the first, and the remaining 3) for a net of 1...you are at 5 above normal...

 

Then lose 5 (the last 5), and gain nothing..you are now at normal...

[ghost-angel]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

having read through most of this discussion.. I agree with both sides.

 

At some point you have to weight Realism vs Playability.

 

While you'd think a double shot from a Drain Gun would heal as one recovery by strict rules they are seperate. Making extra book keeping.

 

Two seperate shots from two different kinds of Drains should heal sperately, and they do.

 

It'd be awfully awkward within the rules book to try and account for and explain both mechanics and say they are both the same. I believe that'd open up more problems than it would solve, in the end choosing one mechanic and going with it is probably best.

 

And then you can do whatever you want when it gets to the table and the game begins. Because there are no referee's standing to the side tossing yellow flags on the table when you deviate from the Rules As Written.

 

Do whatever makes sense and whatever works best for your game.

 

I personally think that the rules, as written in the book currently, are the best of all options even if they don't always seem to make Realistic Sense when you get into the game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

BODY and STUN are kind of odd anyway, in the same way that Hit Points are odd. If in real life you were kicked in the gut AND you got a bruise on your right arm, you'd recover from them simultaneously over time. But in RPGs, for ease of bookkeeping, you recover from the sum of the damage.

 

I agree with you over the BODY thing: although there may be some slight retardation of healing if your body has to devote resources to healing multiple wounds, by and large they will only take as long as the longest one, not the sum of the times to heal. I think there is an argument for seperately tracking Body injuries (which tend to be relatively rare in supers games but more frequent in other genres). Here's how I do it:

 

On character sheets I tend to use little boxes: one for each point of body. First wound fill it in with / marks, next one fill it in with \ marks: you can see each wound seperated from the last and, if you want to, heal them individually (especially important if you are using healing powers eg magic in a fantasy setting).

 

STUN OTOH seems to me to be a different case. It heals very quickly anyway, so I see no real problem with seperate stun injuries healing as a total not as individual injuries. STUN represents, to me, the accumulation of pain and shock that will eventually KO you: I do see different injuries adding.

 

I think there is an argument for 'long term stun'. I've experimented with this: every full 5 Stun you take from a single injury, 1 of them is long term stun and heals at REC per day (representing bruising and such like - not life threatening injuries, but something that keeps you off peak performance). Recording it using the boxes for STUN is using a slash for normal stun and crossing one for LTSTUN. Having tried this though, I did not really feel that the extra book keeping was really worth it in most situations. If you are running a KnightFall type scenario though, it is really worth a look.

 

Similarly I do not feel that the extra book keeping warrants changing the way I deal with drains: each power or characteristic drained recovers at 5 cp per turn.

 

I have not noticed many, in fact any, recent threads complaining that drain is too powerful. This ruling weakens it considerably, and I do not think it is necessary or useful.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I've always done it the way Steve said and It never occurred to me to do otherwise. But I haven't played in a hen's age and I have no opinion on which way to do it is best.