To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

[Constantine]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Having once played a PC with nothing but drains, who was already underpowered compared to the rest of the group, I can assure you that if each drain I did recovered individually, the character would've quickly become unplayable.

I think that having each drain recover seperately is silly, not to mention a book keeping nightmare....

[Tech]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I've always done it the way Steve said and It never occurred to me to do otherwise. But I haven't played in a hen's age and I have no opinion on which way to do it is best.

 

I've been doing quite a bit of thinking on this topic since first starting this. First, I'll say I've never done it Steve's way. However, I can go with Steve's answer - its a simple point, although it almost begs to have heroes and/or villains start buying delays on return, which are no fun. However, it does lead to an awful lot of more bookkeeping, as each attack requires a note of each attack's drain. I've gleaned from other postings in other forums that some new players dislike the bookkeeping and this seems just another thing to pile on top of it.

 

Now, adding weight to my way of handling (this only applies to my game, not yours) is the houserule that you recover 1 pt/segment. Now, that's not official but it allows the stacking to occur, which means less bookkeeping, it allows the pts to come back sooner and it makes for villains and/or heroes to be less likely to buy a delay on the drain. It also means the villains/heroes will get back their points faster than waiting to post-12, assuming no delay and in one turn will turn out to be 12 pts returning instead of 5 pts.

 

I guess I can suggest Steve's ruling to the group but they already dislike bookkeeping and this will simply add more. I guess I'm still stuck in the middle: I agree and disagree with the ruling.

[Vondy]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I say make up your own mind. After all, you paid for the book.

[APE]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

What happens if you have a low dice cumulative drain that builds up past the power defence?

[pinecone]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I've given this a little more thought...and I guess in a world that includes Rapid attacks this is a nessisary thing for game ballence...but I still hate book keeping so I'll Only use this IF a rapid attack happy drainer ever shows up.....

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer
Well, I generally put a delayed return rate on adjustment powers, so I'm not sure it's likely to matter too much for me. Then again, it will probably help the PCs to do it the way Steve suggests, given that some of the villains don't have delayed return rates...

[Hawksmoor]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I am still boggled that some people seem to think that no matter how many different adjustment powers that effect a target only one recovery is allowed per time period.

 

That is nuts!

 

Simplygnome has it to rights! Each adjustment fades at its own rate and thus the bookkeeping gets tedious, but that is part and parcel of allowing Adjustments in the game. I dislike the amount of work I have to do so I don't generally approve adjustment powers in my games.

 

Separate recoveries for separate drains are not nerfing adjustments. One power used sequentially means that the target only gets one recovery per time period; OTOH multiple adjustments with different powers means multiple recoveries.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Separate recoveries for separate drains are not nerfing adjustments. One power used sequentially means that the target only gets one recovery per time period; OTOH multiple adjustments with different powers means multiple recoveries.

 

First off, if you read Steve's answer, it seems to suggest 1 recovery per time increment per hit (even for one power used sequentially). [to quote, "Regardless of whether the Drains come from a single or multiple attackers, track each use of Drain separately. The character recovers 5 points/Turn from each Drain separately either in Post-Segment 12") That's the biggest issue I have with that ruling - if you're struck three times by Leech's Stun drain, you should recover 5 STUN per time increment, not 15 (at least IMO).

 

At the other end of the spectrum is whether two adjustments to two different abilities carry two separate recovery periods. In my opinion, they do and they have to. Otherwise, we need to find a mechanic for dividing up the 5 points, and that's senseless, even if it didn't create a balance issue. If you're drained both DEX and STR, you recover 5 cp of each per time increment, again IMO.

 

I don't think we're seeing a lot of disagreement to these two extremes (which means, in the case of the single drain used multiple times, we're seeing disagreement with Steve's ruling).

 

Where the disagreement seems to arise is where the same stat is drained by multiple opponents. That could be Leech and Herculan both draining STR, or 5 VIPER agents all firing their Mark III Stun Drain Dart Rifles. Here, the answer is less clear.

 

In my view, the most straightforward method remains 5 points per time increment. You don't recover (or regenerate) BOD damage inflicted from Scorpia's claws and Durak's fists separately - you recover BOD as one pool. Same for STUN. Granted, adjustment powers are a separate mechanic, but I see no compelling reason the logic should change. As well, we then get into the question of what is a "separate attack". For example:

 

- is the VIPER Dart Gun one attack, so all STUN inflicted by the darts recovers 5 per time increment?

 

- is the VIPER agent the attacker, so each attacker's darts recover at 5 per time increment?

 

- does each gun get its own REC (so if the agent who hit SuperAgentBuster falls, someone should pick up that gun to fire on him, since it will recover slower than their own gun)?

 

Common sense would seem to dictate it's the dart poison that recovers, so trat them all as "oine attack". But that opens another can of worms. If we acknowledge all the VIPER guns are the same, what about two villains with the same special effect? Similar special effects? How similar? Does a person whose DEX is drained by a magic spell, a poison dart gun and a frigid environment logically recover faster than one exposed to only one effect, but in larger doses?

 

And do the rules apply to all adjustment powers? All negative adjustment powers? Only drains? Here, my answer is "the rule should be for all adjustment powers".

 

Easier to simply set recovery at 5 cp per time increment per ability affected, and move on. Although I'd have to admit, I rarely see multiple adjustment powers in play during a single encounter, much less multiple attackers all draining the same ability/stat.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

And the bookkeeping gets even worse than that. If you have to treat multiple Drains from the same source one way, and Drains from different sources another way, and Transfers yet another way, you've already added tremendous complication.

 

You then have to resolve the other "iffy" cases:

Squad of agents with identical Drain guns.

Identical twin mutants with the same Drain power.

Duplicating Man with Drains.

Drainer plus Mimic who exactly mimics the Drainer's Drain (that's why I included a mimic in my example).

 

If BLICS Man recovers each Drain individually (28 points/turn in the example!), there is very little point in draining someone on Phase 12, or near the end of the turn. You might as well hold your phase and Drain them on Segment 1 of the next turn. And how do you get around that bit-o-power-gaming? By letting the recoveries happen 12 segments after the Drains occur, rather than during Post-12. In other words...

 

Yet MORE bookkeeping!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

You might as well hold your phase and Drain them on Segment 1 of the next turn. And how do you get around that bit-o-power-gaming? By letting the recoveries happen 12 segments after the Drains occur, rather than during Post-12. In other words...

 

Yet MORE bookkeeping!

 

No, everyone buys De;ayed Recovery for +1/4

[Silbeg]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

It sure would make +1/4 for "once per minute" a lot more attractive - you can just recover nothing until the combat's over, thanks.

Probably true, not that it isn't attractive already!

 

I assume, by the way, that this cuts both ways. If you're hit 3 times with an Aid, you would lose 15 points per turn, not just 5.

 

I would have to agree with that... also makes absorbtion a trickier beast, and potentially more risky.

 

Holocaust has been absorbing energy to STUN for a full turn, and has absorbed 9 times (as well as having been pounded for 40 more STUN than he normally has).

 

 

post-12, he recovers 20 STUN, and then loses 45... and goes down for the count! N

[Kristopher]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

That completely convinces me that Steve's way just doesn't work out.

[Just Joe]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I have had too little experience with drains (especially in 5th ed.) to have an opinion on which answer is most balanced. Steve's answer has the advantage of simplicity, but is generally much more difficult on the book-keeping (though perhaps easier when one is hit by drains with different recovery rates).

 

In any event, it seems to me that both ways of handling it should be options, and that a GM who wants to should have a way of allowing both options into the same campaign, at least for attacks by the same attacker and attacks with the same SE, such as the following:

 

Squad of agents with identical Drain guns.

Identical twin mutants with the same Drain power.

Duplicating Man with Drains.

Drainer plus Mimic who exactly mimics the Drainer's Drain (that's why I included a mimic in my example).

If Steve's answer is to be taken as the default, then the ability to "stack" drain effects would require an advantage or adder. If an advantage, +1/4 seems like the only option, and this would almost always be inferior to the +1/4 time-delayed-return advantage (exception LOTS of agents with AE or other way of hitting reliably). But good players and GM's might accept the slightly inferior option as appropriate to the character. I'm tempted to say that an adder is preferable. To the extent that "stacking" tends to be more valuable for small drains, an adder seems more appropriate than an advantage. But this is a tricky case, the benefit seems to be neither strictly constant nor strictly proportional, so I can see going either way. If you did go with an adder, then it might vary with how many other attacks it can stack with. Something like: +5 stack with on drains only, +10 stack with other drains of the same SE that also bought a +10 or greater adder, +15 stack with all other drains of the same SE, even if they bought no adder (this last one might be appropriate for the mimic drainer, for example).

 

If you treat the anti-Steve answer as your default, then the Steve answer can be represented by a limitation. I'll let someone else tackle that one, I've rambled on enough.

[casualplayer]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I have always worked it just like REC. Unless the return rate on the adjustment power is modified, you get your REC in active points back each Post-12. Take a Recovery on your action, get back your REC in CP.

 

It always seemed to me that REC was meant to be "restore characteristic to starting value" and operates on all characteristics simultaneously STR-STUN.

 

So I keep a gross total of adjustments and REC away at that til restored, not each seperate "wound."

 

P.S.: I understand that this favors the STR and CON-Monsters, just like all the other non-SPD figured characteristics do. I find it in flavor that high CON people recover from adjustment powers more quickly, and I find it helps in the gradation (degradation) caused by taking adjustments off the top. If I hit you with a 1d6 STR Drain, you lose ~50kg of lift; if I hit Grond with it he loses a gazillion kg of lift!

[zornwil]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I see three tiers here:

 

(a) I have been drained from two or more stats or powers. Each stat or power recovers5 5 points at each PS 12. This makes sense to me, and I agree with that.

 

( I have been drained from the same stat by two or more diofferent opponents. Should I get 5 points back each turn, or five points in respect of each opponent? I could go either way on this. 5 points each turn makes for simple bookkeeping, but what if one opponent had "delayed recovery - 1 minute" and the other did not? Do I get 5 a turn until I recover all the stats lost to the first opponent? If that takes 5 turns, when do I get my first "1 per minute" recovery? I could live with either approach here. I favour 5 per turn (and, with delayed time, the shortest time delay recovers first, and the next begins to recover when the faster increment is recovered in full). But 5 per attacker wouldn't break my heart.

 

© One opponent hits me multiple times with a drain from one stat. Let's say he hit me 5 times. Should I recover 5 points per turn, or 25 (5 points per turn per attack)? Here, I think it should be like any other attack. You don't recover BOD at REC/ month for each wound - you recover total BOD. You don't recover STUN from each attack - you recover total STUN. And you shouldn't recover stats from each drain. If you're down 25 STR, you should recover 5 points per turn.

 

So I would say I disagree with Steve's ruling. I can't say it overly surprises me, however. 5e seems to me to make pretty much every Adjustment Power ruling favour weakening these abilities. They had problems due to some overpowering in 4e, and now the pendulum seems to swing too far the other way.

Your last sentence sums it up. Fear of Adjustment Powers Personally I've run them slightly more liberally than in 4th for some time and not seen an issue (though early on I ran Aid requiring personal BOD sacrifice, but I dropped that).

 

The other issues here are SFX and accounting. These darn powers just get complicated. Do we let like SFX stack? Do we need multiple "buckets" for different SFX adjustments? From a "realistic" standpoint one would think so. But it gets messy fast.

 

Something keeps gnawing at me, there must be some more elegant way on the whole to address Adjustment Powers. Dunno what it is, though.

 

If powers were all fueled by a bank of "power points" (let's fantasize a moment, okay?) and Adjustment Powers were all based on SFX, and power points were all defined by SFX, then we'd be down to something getting a little more (just a little, but enough to point it out) like ED, PD, and MD. The interaction of the damage to these power points is that they'd have to be subtracted from the powers they support. The simplest approach would be to do so proportionally.

 

So Iceman has 200 CPs of "ice power stuff" (whatever - MPs, ECs, powers outside frameworks). Along comes "Cold Drainster" who removes the chill. Cold Drainster takes out 20 CPs and poor Iceman has no PowDef. Now Iceman is 10% down on all his powers.

 

But then Adjustment Powers have a heck of a time being effective - they turn into an all-or-nothing contest. Is this bad, IF they are costed appropriately? I'm not so sure. Obviously one would tend to write them broadly. To write an "old fashioned Energy Blast drain" one would write "SFX: All Energy" (broad indeed) and "Only Blasts, -1" (can't limit it too far since some advantage comes from only stealing away CPs on the subjects blasts, thus concentrating the effect more, though the +2 or +3 for "All Energy" also helps inhibit the size of what we throw) or something like that.

 

Just musing.

[Rapier]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I'll throw my voice behind this one.

 

I track adjustment powers (eg drains) per "attack" (in the Hero power sense of the word...Oculon's DEX Drain Vertigo Power).

 

If one character hits you with a DEX drain, a STR drain and a CON drain, on PS 12 you would regain 5 DEX, 5 STR and 5 CON.

 

If one character hits you with 3 DEX drains from the same power construct, on PS 12 you would regain 5 DEX.

 

If one character hits you with 3 DEX drains (one from an ice sheet on the ground, one from a chemical dart and one from an inner-ear-balance-thrower-offer-machine -- its early...shut it!) you would regain 15 DEX on PS 12.

 

However, for the most part I think this is rather moot for most of us. How many times have the Drain Squad battled your heroes? At the most we end up with MAYBE one character with Drain. They are just not that common.

[Sean Waters]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Ah, Rapier, you're becoming far too sensible in your dotage.

 

I agree that drains are not a major problem but that is mainly becasue I tend to head off the hairy ones (The 6d6 INT drain Stupid Gun, for example). Drains can be potentially very nasty indeed

 

I assume all drains are cumulative and drained characteristics or powers recover at 5 points per turn each (i.e. for each adjusted power or characteristic) irrespective of what caused them: less book keeping Rapier's approach seems more realistic, but, frankly, I only have so many fingers...

 

What does puzzle me, however, is this 5 points per turn mullarkey. I know it has been that way forever but I really can't see why the recovery rate shouldn't either be the same as a character's REC OR (possibly better) you can't just buy your adjustment power recovery up if you want to (say at 2 points per point, or 3 if it is ONLY against negative adjustment powers).

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

We've always done it "Steve's way", for 20+yrs. The return rate is a function of the Drain and is established when the power is bought - it has nothing to do with the target's REC, if they're awake or not, if they take extra phases to recover, etc. That's where the differences are.

 

"How fast do I get STUN back that was Drained?" - depends on how the drain was bought.

 

"How fast do I get STUN back from being Energy Blasted?" - depends on your REC, how far below zero you are, or if you're concious how often you choose to take an action to recover.

 

Two completely different animals.

[prestidigitator]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

I've only skimmed some parts of this thread, as I am lazy, but I thought I'd describe my method.

 

Usually I have Drains fade at a single pool, with the shorter Fade Rates occuring first, and the longer ones starting immediately thereafter (though it often doesn't make a terribly big difference if the longer Fade Rates started from the moment of the Drain since longer time increments are generally orders of magnitude longer). I do it the same for Drains from different attackers as for multiple Drains from a single attacker. This seems to be similar to the way many other people do it.

 

The exception is if the SFX of the Drains are significantly different. If a spell Drains some Strength, and some poison then Drains more Strength, I really don't see that the poison should lengthen the duration of the spell. It is largely a common sense thing here. However, this tends to happen so rarely in my games that a little extra bookkeeping in those infrequent circumstances is not a big deal.

[zornwil]

Re: To agree or disagree with Steve's answer

 

Ah, Rapier, you're becoming far too sensible in your dotage.

 

I agree that drains are not a major problem but that is mainly becasue I tend to head off the hairy ones (The 6d6 INT drain Stupid Gun, for example). Drains can be potentially very nasty indeed

 

I assume all drains are cumulative and drained characteristics or powers recover at 5 points per turn each (i.e. for each adjusted power or characteristic) irrespective of what caused them: less book keeping Rapier's approach seems more realistic, but, frankly, I only have so many fingers...

 

What does puzzle me, however, is this 5 points per turn mullarkey. I know it has been that way forever but I really can't see why the recovery rate shouldn't either be the same as a character's REC OR (possibly better) you can't just buy your adjustment power recovery up if you want to (say at 2 points per point, or 3 if it is ONLY against negative adjustment powers).

I do it as REC, btw, it's in my house rules.