Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

[SuperKlaus]

We all saw Nightcrawler kick those guys' asses in X2. Now, I'm fully aware that as a GM I could easily let my players perform Move By / Through with Teleport because I love the idea; I just would like to know the reason for the official "no." Is it because Teleport doesn't build velocity? If so, why not just deny Teleport the velocity damage (making Move Through pretty useless but leaving Multiple Move By as a potentially useful option, especially considering how easily Teleport could "return to the original hex" to strike again)?

 

And why is Running 2 CPs per inch when Flight is 1, anyway? Compensation for the 6" of Running everyone gets to begin with?

 

Forgive me if any of this was addressed in 5th Revised. I only have 5th.

[Steve Long]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't answer game design/philosophy questions. However, I've moved this to the Discussion area so that you and other fans who are interested in these subjects can talk about them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

We all saw Nightcrawler kick those guys' asses in X2. Now' date=' I'm fully aware that as a GM I could easily let my players perform Move By / Through with Teleport because I love the idea; I just would like to know the reason for the official "no." Is it because Teleport doesn't build velocity? If so, why not just deny Teleport the velocity damage (making Move Through pretty useless but leaving Multiple Move By as a potentially useful option, especially considering how easily Teleport could "return to the original hex" to strike again)?[/quote']

 

I would suggest it is because other forms of movement see the individual pass through the intervening space, such that sticking your arm out to do a Move By (or several) is a viable option. Each use of Teleportation is a discrete action (full phase or half phase depending on distance) in which the teleporter starts at one point, vanishes and reappears at another.

 

I would also suggest that this is not a "standard ability" which comes with teleportation. Other than Nightcrawler, I can't think of a character that uses this tactic. Raven, for example, does not, nor does Warp (from Brotherhood of Evil Mutants), the teleporter who was in Magneto's Acolytes, or the Genoshan Pipeline. Maybe the Vanisher used some variances on the tactic. If it's not a standard part of the power, it shouldn't come as part of the base power.

 

The ability is easily simulated with an Energy Blast, Selective Area, radius (equal to half teleport inches since he has to get back, or 1/4 since he can do this in a 1/2 phase, or or some lesser amount to simulate multiple jumps reducing absolute distance potential) to allow strikes on multiple targets in the area, which targets cannot strike back. An Autofire EB could allow multiple strikes on the same person. To Grab or Disarm and port back, Stretching that Does Not Cross Intervening Space (and maybe is Indirect) would serve. Selective AE STR may also be an option to allow martial maneuvers used with TPort (that's a bit more non-standard, but for the right SFX, like these, may be very appropriate).

 

And why is Running 2 CPs per inch when Flight is 1' date=' anyway? Compensation for the 6" of Running everyone gets to begin with?[/quote']

 

Flight and Running both cost 2 CP per inch. Flight can gain altitude and prevent falling. Running has no turn mode. Perhaps you are confusing Flight with Gliding, which is much more limited?

 

ASIDE: I find the refusal to discuss reasoning frustrating overall - I'd like to see a lot more in the books, as it assists in assessing the impact if one chooses to tinker with the rules. I do, however, fully understand why Steve will ot get into "rules philosophy" on the boards, even if the books devoted hundreds of pages to it - it would quickly become a huge timewaster for Steve (and he can't write books to make money while debating rules philosophy on the Boards).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

We all saw Nightcrawler kick those guys' asses in X2. Now' date=' I'm fully aware that as a GM I could easily let my players perform Move By / Through with Teleport because I love the idea; I just would like to know the reason for the official "no." Is it because Teleport doesn't build velocity? If so, why not just deny Teleport the velocity damage (making Move Through pretty useless but leaving Multiple Move By as a potentially useful option, especially considering how easily Teleport could "return to the original hex" to strike again)?[/quote']

 

Thats my favorite scene from X2 and I agree we should be able to model that ability in Hero.

 

Huge has a good fix for this (though, I would write it up as an AE-Radius/Selective TK, since he was not just hitting and kicking people, but was grabbing and tossing them as well) but I have an even better solution:

 

Purchase Teleport with the Autofire advantage.

 

With this power, allow people only to teleport out to their maximum distance, but they can "reappear" along the way a number of times equal to the number of Autofire shots purchased. This would allow a Teleport Move-by attack. Of course, they would pay increased Endurance for the Teleport (normal endurance cost times the number of reappearances)

 

Those restrictions should allay most fears associated with multiple teleportation.

[Kristopher]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Unless the character started out moving before the teleport, no amount of trickery should result in the velocity damage bonus being applied.

[lemming]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

I like Hugh's idea of the EB Autofire, Selective area best. Probably some limitations to think of are Damage Shields and perhaps making the teleporter do as part of a teleport. So the whole manuever would be a full phase.

Grabbing weapons and the like could be stretching.

Expensive if you want to do both in the same phase as a multi attack.

 

Just putting an adder on tport (or autofire) could be an elegant way as well, though possibly under costed.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?I'm a bit puzzled as to why we think Nightcrawler's actions in X2 constitute Move By / Move Through. He 'ports into position, makes an attack. Next phase, he does it again. I think what you're seeing as a 'Move By' is actually a reflection of Nightcrawler's very high SPD relative to the Secret Service agents. He might get 3, possibly 4 actions (depending on the build) for every one the agents get. Hence, his actions could be modeled perfectly well just by using the normal SPD chart. IMO.

[lemming]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

I'm a bit puzzled as to why we think Nightcrawler's actions in X2 constitute Move By / Move Through. He 'ports into position' date=' makes an attack. Next phase, he does it again. I think what you're seeing as a 'Move By' is actually a reflection of Nightcrawler's very high SPD relative to the Secret Service agents. He might get 3, possibly 4 actions (depending on the build) for every one the agents get. Hence, his actions could be modeled perfectly well just by using the normal SPD chart. IMO.

[/quote']well, I was just working off the idea of justifying the autofire route. But you make a damn fine point.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

I'm a bit puzzled as to why we think Nightcrawler's actions in X2 constitute Move By / Move Through. He 'ports into position' date=' makes an attack. Next phase, he does it again. I think what you're seeing as a 'Move By' is actually a reflection of Nightcrawler's very high SPD relative to the Secret Service agents. He might get 3, possibly 4 actions (depending on the build) for every one the agents get. Hence, his actions could be modeled perfectly well just by using the normal SPD chart. IMO.

[/quote']A SPD 8 Nightcrawler vs SPD 2 Guards?I'll give you that one.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Mikey makes an excellent point (and also beat me to making it myself).

 

As for why Teleport can't perform those Move By/Through maneuvers: I think it's because those two maneuver specifically require velocity to function. You aren't really moving by or through something if you just appear and attack. Appearing and attacking is just a normal use of Teleport and the Strike maneuver. If you wanted to attack after making a Full Move with Teleport, you could always buy extra inches of Teleport with the Limitation "Only For Making Half Moves (-1)."

[The Hyborian]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Another way to simulate this would be a energy blast with indirect. Leap in the air, start a spin kick, "teleport" just for the moment of impact, and snap teleport back. The only issue I coud see with this approach is that the attack should set off dammage shields, which it strictly wouldn't do with an energy blast. But damage shields might be rare enough that this would not be worth any disadvantage points. Also, I see the issue that you end up where you start this way. If you want to make teleport "move bys", that is, teleport from x to z and hit target at point y in the process, you need another option. But if you have enough teleport range, I suppose you could half move from x to z and then throw your ranged attack, be it selective or indirect or what have you.

 

Im not sure about the autofire option. I dont think you could by that for a momement power. Autofire is normally purchased on attack powers or powers which can be used offensively (pg 162 5th edtion). I think you are looking at a custom adder or advantage if you want to let people make multipe short hops with teleport. Even with this I would not allow a velocity bonus to damage.

 

Just my $.02

[Mike W]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Teleport can't, by itself, do move by/move through because it doesn't generate velocity. It moves you, but you aren't actually accelerating or in motion when you get there. On the other hand, since teleport does not change your velocity, you COULD(as a power stunt let's say), start running, teleport in front of someone(-1 inch of t-port can be used for every inch you ran) and then use your run velocity to simulate a move through since you would still be moving at your running rate. This is how I would simulate Nightcrawler's opening scene in X-2. He starts running, then ports and maintains his run velocity after he ports.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Another way to simulate this would be a energy blast with indirect. Leap in the air' date=' start a spin kick, "teleport" just for the moment of impact, and snap teleport back. The only issue I coud see with this approach is that the attack should set off dammage shields, which it strictly wouldn't do with an energy blast. But damage shields might be rare enough that this would not be worth any disadvantage points. Also, I see the issue that you end up where you start this way. If you want to make teleport "move bys", that is, teleport from x to z and hit target at point y in the process, you need another option. But if you have enough teleport range, I suppose you could half move from x to z and then throw your ranged attack, be it selective or indirect or what have you.[/quote']

 

Oh, I like your indirect method.

 

Im not sure about the autofire option. I dont think you could by that for a momement power. Autofire is normally purchased on attack powers or powers which can be used offensively (pg 162 5th edtion). I think you are looking at a custom adder or advantage if you want to let people make multipe short hops with teleport. Even with this I would not allow a velocity bonus to damage.

 

Just my $.02

 

Hey, the 5Ed allows Autofire on Absorbtion of all powers. Heck, even Autofire Images is allowed.

 

I think people are only considering the +1/2 modifier for Autofire on Teleport. That is incorrect. Remember, there is an additional +1 modifier for applying Teleport to a non-standard attack power (EB, HA, RKA, HKA) with the only exception being Change Environment. That means a Teleport 10" (20) with Autofire-5 (+1 1/2) has an active point cost of 50pts! I'd say thats pretty in line with what you're trying to accomplish...

[Dino]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

A SPD 8 Nightcrawler vs SPD 2 Guards?

 

I'd give Secret Service agents more than a 2 speed, but I agree with the sentiment.

 

As far as the comic books go, Nightcrawler clearly has an autofire attack for use against single foes (usually drawn as a single panel with a cluster of "bamph" clouds surrounding the target each with a Nightcrawler fist or foot emerging from it).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Unless the character started out moving before the teleport' date=' no amount of trickery should result in the velocity damage bonus being applied.[/quote']Since basic Teleport explicitly does not cancel velocity (which is why teleporting into a moving object can injure the character unless the character buys it with the No Relative Velocity advantage), there is absolutely no logical reason at least the first target of a teleporter who was already moving with Running or Flight prior to Teleporting would not get a velocity modifier for damage with a Move Through/By.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Thanks for your inputs, guys! The Flight / Running thing was just a terrible mistake on my part. I somehow totally missed that 2 is not 1.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Since basic Teleport explicitly does not cancel velocity (which is why teleporting into a moving object can injure the character unless the character buys it with the No Relative Velocity advantage)' date=' there is absolutely no logical reason at least the first target of a teleporter who was already moving with Running or Flight prior to Teleporting would not get a velocity modifier for damage with a Move Through/By.[/quote']

 

Not sure you can do that: saw something in a post a while back, and I think the default position (despite the lack of logic involved) is that you stop flying when you teleport so unless you switch back to flight you are not moving in a controlled manner, or something like that.

 

Anyway, from the FAQ:

 

Q: The rules for Teleportation states that a character cannot use Teleportation to perform Move Throughs or Move Bys. If a character has a Martial Maneuver with the FMove Element, will Teleportation work with it?

 

 

 

A: The character can make the Full Move using Teleportation, if the GM agrees it makes sense given the special effects involved and the exact nature of the maneuver the character’s attempting. But he wouldn’t get any velocity bonus for it.

 

So maybe NC just has some martial arts? It would also be logical to allow move through/move by without velocity damage adds as was suggested right at the startof the post...

 

I was also going to suggest stretching with the 'does not cross interventing space' advantage, which would allow you to do sweeps and rapid attacks and suchlike with the sfx that you are teleporting too quick to be hit.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Since basic Teleport explicitly does not cancel velocity (which is why teleporting into a moving object can injure the character unless the character buys it with the No Relative Velocity advantage)' date=' there is absolutely no logical reason at least the first target of a teleporter who was already moving with Running or Flight prior to Teleporting would not get a velocity modifier for damage with a Move Through/By.[/quote']

 

Actually, that was an essential element of what I was originally trying to create on this thread:

concept vs. booklegal

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17894

 

Every attempt I made to create this effect with 'by the book rules' was blocked by Steve. (see relevant threads and quotes below).

 

HM

 

The power which is the hardest to fit in booklegal is his short distance Hyper-Jump teleport. It is only 5" with position shift and no velocity modifiers with must pass through internviening space. I visualize it as one of the typical flashy moves out of many early DBZ combats with Goku and company. It allows him to change direction on a dime and for an extreme manuever do a half move leap or flight movethrough using half of the teleport (2") for an indirect effect on the direction he attacks from. A bit of a flashy move at best.

 

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/rules/POWERS.htm

 

Q: Can using Position Shift change the direction/vector in which a character moves?

 

A: That depends on the type of movement involved.

 

For uncontrolled movement — falling or being thrown, for example — Position Shift has no effect. It changes the way the character faces, but not the direction in which he moves.

 

For controlled movement — such as the use of Movement Powers — Position Shift can change the direction of movement. For example, if a character has Flight 10†and moves at full velocity eastward, but after he flies 5†someone hits him with a Teleportation Usable As Attack power with Position Shift and changes him so that he faces north, he’ll flying the remaining 5†north (unless he has some way to avoid doing so). The GM has the final decision regarding what effect Position Shift has on a moving character.

 

I also tried the rules thread:

Is this a legal use of Teleport + normal movement?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24496

with a followup:

Re: Is this a legal use of Teleport + normal movement?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24507

and a completely alternate build idea:

Is this a legal use of HA + Indirect?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24558

[Dust Raven]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

As far as the comic books go' date=' Nightcrawler clearly has an autofire attack for use against single foes (usually drawn as a single panel with a cluster of "bamph" clouds surrounding the target each with a Nightcrawler fist or foot emerging from it).[/quote']

 

In (one of) my write-up of Nightcrawler I just gave him Rapid Attack (HTH) and CSLs with Sweep to simulate his ability to bamph around and hit lots of people at effectively the same time, or a single target several times.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Hi guys.. just wondering what you think about this:

 

If you have the autofire advantage on strength and, say, 5 inches of Stretching, do you still have to "waste" shots on the hexes in between multiple targets, or are all opponents within 5 inches considered adjacent to the character?

 

I've been tossing the idea of a teleporting villian around, and thought that an indirect autofire Ha + Stretching (does not cross etc) + a small combat teleport would build the effect very nicely..

 

thanks

 

-Cratermaker

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Well I'd say so, unless you bought the relevant autofire skills to allow you to ignore the penalty for intervening spaces: can't remember, is it concentrated sprayfire, accurate sprayfire, something like that?

 

Of course the problem with using stretching and autofire/rapid attack is that the character has to end up where they started (they do not, in fact, move), so the effect is not a perfect copy of the Nightcrawler scene, but it's close enough for government work. Pun intended, obviously.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Oooh, oooh, triggered teleport would allow you to move after you attack. That could be one way to build this, or at least a starting point....

[CraterMaker]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Agh! That is such a freakin good idea! (pounds head into wall)

 

>thump<

>thump<

>thump<

 

I was thinking along the lines of just planning where you want to end up and teleporting there (half move) and then doing the attack, but with a triggered teleport you'd be able to tp in, do the attacks, then automatically be teleported to the last target attacked..

 

Which would not necessarily be an advantage in a combat (and could certainly end up being a disadvantage), but would be a cool "flavor" for a character!

 

But.. Triggered movement powers in general raise a red flag in my mind. Something like this is neutral enough that I'd allow, but I'm thinking GM's should put a lot of thought on how Triggered Movement powers might affect his/her game.

 

In the Stretching/AF hand attack thing, I think all targets within 5" of the attacker would be considered adjacent to the attacker, and therefore you would not need to put a shot into hexes between targets. I think the way the rules are written do not support my opinion, however, so I'd like to hear everyones thoughts on it.

 

-CraterMaker

[Dust Raven]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Hi guys.. just wondering what you think about this:

 

If you have the autofire advantage on strength and, say, 5 inches of Stretching, do you still have to "waste" shots on the hexes in between multiple targets, or are all opponents within 5 inches considered adjacent to the character?

 

I've been tossing the idea of a teleporting villian around, and thought that an indirect autofire Ha + Stretching (does not cross etc) + a small combat teleport would build the effect very nicely..

 

thanks

 

-Cratermaker

 

I think the FAQ mentiones this, but a character with Stretching is not considered adjacent to everything in range of his Stretching. Regardless, whether or not a target is adjacent to the attacker is irrevelant. It only matters of the targets are adjacent to each other, of if they aren't conveniently lined up for you, you'll have to "waste" some shots for the hexes between them unless you take the appropriate Autofire Skill.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Ah well.. I had a suspicion that was the way it read. Back to AE selective, then *grin*

 

Thanks

 

-CraterMaker