Will Not Break...(It Broke)

[Dust Raven]

After reading, and rereading, the rules for Foci, I've been thinking over the fairness of certain tactics that, theoretically, are well within the rules.

 

First off, you can, theoretically, attack any Breakable Foci with a Penetrating Killing Attack and break it automatically if you hit (unless the Foci has a Hardened Defense in it, or has Hardened Defense bought for it).

 

Second, you can, also theoretically, use a simple Drain BODY on a Breakable Foci and, assuming it doesn't have any Power Defense, automatically break it.

 

So anyways, I was wondering what the rest of you think about this. Is this possible? Fair? Blatant rules raping? What?

[Catacomb]

Do you allow called shots?

[CrosshairCollie]

It's perfectly fair. If you get a point break because you can get caught without your Foci, you should expect to be caught without your Foci from time to time.

 

That said, it's not something that should happen constantly. Every villain team shouldn't have someone who specifically tries to break foci as a primary tactic. Probably nobody should do it as a PRIMARY tactic, but it shouldn't happen constantly.

 

As far as villains go, you'll probably not catch the same villain with the same focus-busting trick twice, unless they're too poor to upgrade their equipment. It's a standard schtick for villains that they correct a flaw that led to a lopsided defeat, so if their gun gets busted, they'll armor it (generally).

[tesuji]

i think the foci breakage rules are seriously broken as it comes to reflecting the comic genre. The fact that durability where you radically change the def value of the item is a "no point" change goes a long way to showing you the issues. The fact that the option of just ignoring the foci breaking rules or some of them is suggested again points to mehcanical issues.

 

As such, specifically tweaked to break foci powers that exploit these porrly designed breakage rules seems to me to be a very bad way to go. you are in effect glorifying the problems with the rules and not representing the genre or story in the game.

 

So, rather than direct my players attentions to the rules flaws for foci, i would tell them that there are many and myriad ways the foci limitation will come into play and few of them will be as direct as "just blasting it." You may find your battlesuit's computer systems taken over and you effectively losing control of your character as a former employee who worked on the systems software decides to exact revenge. You may find your SMG is magnetized and seizes up after you took that magnetic blast from Magnum. You may find that a botched summoning ritual released a wave of chaotic energy across the city and your Amulet of Power is, like most every other magic item in the city, now corrupted and until you spend a day or two with cleansing rituals it will be highly unstable and unpredictable in use.

 

Thats just for starters.

[Gannok]

I agree that you shouldn't have villians trying to break your foci every chance they get.

 

Saying something is unbreakable just isn't possible using science as we know it. Though something can be damn near unbreakable, nothing is indestructible.

 

Using massive amounts of abilities to break something seems fair to me. Especially since objects can be made more durable by giving them things such as hardened and what not. There are ways to counter act powers that break things. If you want something that is damn tough. Give them those abilities.

 

Take Captain America's Shield. A supposedly unbreakable object. It's got tons of armor. Probably Hardened a bunch of times. Yet, it was still broken. Of course that was all a plot device to sell more comics. Besides that, there are many "unbreakable" objects in comics that have been rendered broken at some point or another.

 

I'd say that if a PC has an object, like Cap's Shield for example, that is supposed to be unbreakable, it makes for an interesting story to break it. Of course, doing it more than once, or early in a campaign are things I wouldn't do. I'd do it through some long standing villian or rival of the PC. It should be a major event that is your hook for a bigger story.

 

Anyways. My opinion on it.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Heck, an NND attack would break it. Truth is, I'm looking at this very situation in an online game I'm about to run, and my baseline rule is going to be, 'virtually no Unbreakable foci'. The only two ways I'd permit a focus to be 'unbreakable' would be either a) a unique technological Focus whose method of construction has been lost (e.g. Cap's Shield), or a unique mystical focus whose power is backed up by a MAJOR supradimensional entity (e.g. the Ruby of Cittorak (sp?) that gives Juggernaut his power).

 

On the flip side, I won't necessarily permit 'just any' damage to screw with the power armor -- or rather, depending on the sort of damage and the type of Focus, the 'ability' the Focus grants may be affected in different ways. A heavy EB to the 'shoulder' area? Maybe the power feeds to your own EB have been damaged, and instead of being TOTALLY out, they're only operating at 75% efficiency. Spot-repairs might be possible, jury-rigging them back to full power. Or perhaps your 'power cell' has been hit, and ALL your gizmo's abilities are slowly starting to dwindle.

 

Whatever the case, I don't think I'd say, 'Oooh, his 4d6 RKA slashes through your armor. Not only do you take 4 points of Body damage, but four out of the eight functions in your armor go kaput!!' Just doesn't seem fair to me...

[Lord Liaden]

Just to clarify, Wyrm, any single attack which does Body damage to a Focus will only destroy one Power at a time, regardless of how much Body gets through its Defense. Otherwise, I agree with the previous posters that the Focus rules have some mechanical limitations. What I would like to see expanded in any future Ultimate Gadget book or the like, is various alternative ways to define Focus breakability and how it can be manifested. Wyrm Ouroboros and tesuji presented several appropriate examples.

 

One that I remember from an official Hero Games book was in the Fantasy Hero Companion. The Spell College of Mentalism required the spell caster to use a crystal "attuned" to his mind. If any other person touched the crystal, its psychic balance was disrupted and rendered unusable until the spell caster could spend an entire day meditating with it in order to "re-attune" it to himself. This was taken as a Fragile Limitation on the Focus crystal; even though it had nothing to do with actually breaking the crystal itself, it was comparable in how the Focus was Limited.

 

As far as Dust Raven's original question: considering that the rules allow for a Focus to be defined as having double its normal Defense for free, I think that that's sufficient precedent to say that it could instead have its normal Defense Hardened for free (the rules FAQ on Foci suggest something similar), or if there's a good justification, grant it an equal amount of Power Defense to resist Drains and Transforms. All of these could be considered variations on Durable. Since the description of Durable suggests that there should be a good explanation for why it is, you could specify that the Focus is Durable because of its special composition or construction, implying that it would be more difficult to repair or replace if damaged.

 

One thing that I'm experimenting with is allowing for increased durability of the Focus at the cost of reducing the Focus Limitation, like reducing the Charge Limitation for Recoverable Charges etc. By reducing the Lim by 1/4, you could double and harden a Focus's normal Defense for purposes of resisting breakage, and give it Active Points/5 in Power Defense to resist Drains and Transforms. So an OIF Focus would only be worth a -1/4 Lim rather than -1/2. An Unbreakable Focus would be considered a variation of this; I think that the difficulty in replacing it inherent in the description of Unbreakable Foci is a sufficiently balancing factor.

 

I decided on this construct after considering what you normally get for free with a Durable and Unbreakable Focus, and the advice in the rules FAQ regarding the breaking of Foci. Yes, I realize that an Unbreakable IIF would not give any Limitation cost break at all, but if you really want to define a Focus that's Inobvious, Inaccessible, and Unbreakable, IMHO you're not that interested in being limited, anyway. That's also why I set the Limitation reduction at 1/4; beyond that you start to lose any cost-break incentive to take the Focus Lim at all.

[Talon]

It seems silly to me that Foci have different rules than all other physical objects, so I would give them BODY equal to their DEF and treat them like other objects (wrecked once they take BODY, etc.).

[Blue]

I let foci break all the time. That's the point of making it a focus. But I don't have the villain always go after to focus because that's bad form in game purposes. Mind you, if you are playing "The Shooter" and he has one big gun he carries around and is always changing the abilities of it by twisting the little dial on it, then obviously every villain on earth is going to take about 1 phase to figure out how to take this guy out of the fight. The heroes would do the very same to the villian, if he were so predisposed to a single focus.

 

As for unbrekable, someone above said that it's "impossible" to have something unbreakable. I would contend that it's impossible to have a mystical hammer or gateway to another dimension. In comic terms it should absolutely possible for something to be eternal in a game.

 

And with Unbreakable items sometimes folks get too hung up on rules. I generally follow the mechanics of the book as far as "interrupting" the abilities of unbreakable foci, because that's all part of making it a focus. And you should get the added advantage of having your item's powers be more resistant to direct attack than those powers would be if they were in you. Accordingly, regardless of how unbreakable foci work in the book, here's how I've always done it (because it pleased me and my players):

 

Unbreakable items in my game have to be unique. There are no "unbreakable laser pistols" and other mundane tech. There has to be a reasoning as to why it's unique and a logic as to how it can be restored to working order. And unbreakable for our purposes has always mean that it's powers can be interrupted by whatever means (Including the dispels and such listed in the post that started the thread).

 

What's more, there's typically a way to restore seemingly permanent damage to an unbreakable item. Especially the more mystical ones. I mean, Mjolnir (sp?) should certainly be unbreakable.

 

An unique item (Let's say... Excalibur) cannot be broken seemingly permanently damaged except by "plot device" of the GM. In other words, if it makes great drama and forces the next part of the story, I may allow the horrendous occurance to destroy it (Say by allowing anger to overtake you and trying to kill the pure-of-heart Lancelot with Excalibur). It can accordingly be restored by virtue of repentance and the acceptance of said repentance by the lady of the lake.

 

By the same token, if it's better drama for the item to survive the impossible that's likely to happen too (Like having Excalibur being at ground zero of a nuclear blast. It would be pretty dramatic to reach ground zero, where the hero had sacrificed himself for the world, and find the sword in tact and plunged into the earth at the scene).

[sbarron]

I would argue that if you really wanted your characters hammer, shield, power ring to be unbreakable, then don't by it as a focus. There are other ways to save points, and maybe there is a reason that Caps shield never breaks, gets stolen, etc (except by the GM, of course). OIHID, anyone?

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

It seems silly to me that Foci have different rules than all other physical objects, so I would give them BODY equal to their DEF and treat them like other objects (wrecked once they take BODY, etc.).

 

Given that one of the options for breaking a Focus is that a single attack does double its Defense in Body damage, you could certainly argue that it should have that amount of Body. However, there are times when it's logical for a Focus to lose Powers when any Body damage gets through, such as a complex piece of electronics, so I'd like to keep that option available. OTOH, a simple weapon with one Power, like a sword, should probably have a Body score and not be destroyed until that Body is gone.

[tesuji]

the big downside to unbreakable foci, btb, is the tougher to replace.

 

With any focus, you KNOW it will be lost. Regardless of your actions, you will lose the power and more than once or twice, frequently enough to be a problem.

 

With breakable foci, one of the methods at the Gms disposal is damage and that damage can be enough to break it entirely or it can just knock off one or teo effects. These are typically fairly quick to repair, maybe a session or two. So, you have basically a lot of slight interruptions in power for relatively short periods.

 

Think of it as paying off your foci loan in small monthly installments.

 

An unbreakable focus ignores most of that. it will be taken from you. (No, i did not say people will TRY to take it from you. It WILL be taken from you.) however, since a duplicate cannot be just whipped up in a lab, it will be a long, complex and trying process to have a shot at getting it back. You might well be without it for months at a time. (and remember, this will not be a one time event!) You will be acting for a significant period of time, multiple sessions and perhaps an entire story arc without the gadget.

 

Think of this as paying off your foci with a few large baloon payments.

 

I too tended to require unbreakable foci be unique items, special items, that could not be readily replaced without lengthy effort and time. I rarely saw unbreakable foci used as they really do not fit most concepts. most super hero objects that are unbreakable never seem to get taken away, which means they are pretty much not foci. OIHID at best (if there is a problem associated with starting the power) or just FX.

 

Either way, IMO, especially for foci breakage and play, i would express to the player that the value of the lim reflects the frequency and severity of the problems which will be encountered and they will be encountered because of the lim and irregardless of the machinations done to try and skirt them. The cost savings were a loan and the payments are the trouble caused.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Given that one of the options for breaking a Focus is that a single attack does double its Defense in Body damage, you could certainly argue that it should have that amount of Body. However, there are times when it's logical for a Focus to lose Powers when any Body damage gets through, such as a complex piece of electronics, so I'd like to keep that option available. OTOH, a simple weapon with one Power, like a sword, should probably have a Body score and not be destroyed until that Body is gone.

 

There is a table for damaged equipment (gains an Activation roll), or the rules state the GM can decide whether or not it works. "Loses 1 power every time it takes BODY" and "Loses 1 power for each Impairing wound" both seem like reasonable options.

[tesuji]

putting into HERO-speak some of the options i have used in games as well as variants on what are mentioned above.... ask yourself do we typically see in comics super-hero devices just breaking in routine combats?

 

I think the answer is "no." Superhero gadgets tend to break for dramatic reasons. There is something more than normal heroing involved or its an integral part of the story.

 

So consider the following notions...

 

All foci get the extra durability for free as mentioned in the rules now.

All foci ignore specific damage from NND, penetrating, lots of Ap etc, in that kind of like a beam, those pinpoint penetrations and effects do get thru but don't break things.

 

In addition all foci tend to have a FX of attack that is particularly effective against them. When in the presence of these FX, the items will often malfunction or maybe even shut down. This may occur if the item is not directly stuck, maybe only requiring the character to be affected or in some cases even just being nearby.

 

If Crimson Cavalier is hit with an EB electric attack, he will likely find thatv one or more of his suits powers have been shut down due to circuitry burnouts. A little shop time is probably all that is needed to replace the burned out circuits.

 

Warlock's Amulet of Healing is a talisman of the sun god Pelor. When affected by supernatural darkness it has a tendency to shut down and no longer function.

 

Diaphonos Amethyst psionic crystal is very delicately attuned and the presence of sonic effects such as flashes and blasts or even so very potent ultrasonics like perhaps sonat will cause it to become unstable until it has had time to "settle down" and restore its harmonious rhythms

 

Basically by using the foci weakness as much more akin to a combo of susceptability, vulnerability or limited power you get away from 'it just breaks" and into a flavor and FX derived implementation of the flaw.

 

Just like they do in the comics. :-)

[Dr. Anomaly]

I've only had one Unbreakable Focus in any campaign, and it's in the solo I'm currently running, and it hasn't caused any problems. Remember, even an Unbreakable Focus has to have some way defined to destroy it -- like every other case, HERO doesn't do absolutes here, either. (By the way, the focus in question is Lian Bi (White Lotus), a sword. It can be broken by its opposite number, Black Pearl.)

 

Hmmm...what about offering degrees of Unbreakability, rather like for Vulnerabilities, and so on? Example:

 

+1/4 The focus can only be broken by attacks with one reasonably common SFX, such as 'fire.'

 

+1/2 The focus can only be broken by attacks with one uncommon SFX, such as 'magnetic effects' or by a limited group, such as attacks from a member of the Vandalur family, or being struck by one of the 12 Holy Swords of Rii.

 

+1 The focus can only be broken by one specific means, object, situation or Power, such as being dropped into lava in the volcano in which it was forged.

 

I realize this makes 'Unbreakable' foci double their cost when they now get it for free (at least), but it may be more balanced.

 

Or you could scale it for power levels in your game:

 

+1/4 The focus can only be broken by major damage (15d6+)

 

+1/2 The focus can only be broken by world-class damage (30d6+)

 

+1 The focus can only be broken by cosmic-level damage (60d6+)

 

+2 The focus can only be broken by deity-level damage (100d6+)

 

...and you can scale these xd6s to suit your campaign.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Given that one of the options for breaking a Focus is that a single attack does double its Defense in Body damage, you could certainly argue that it should have that amount of Body. However, there are times when it's logical for a Focus to lose Powers when any Body damage gets through, such as a complex piece of electronics, so I'd like to keep that option available. OTOH, a simple weapon with one Power, like a sword, should probably have a Body score and not be destroyed until that Body is gone.

At this point, we've basically recreated 3rd edition Focus breakage rules. I think that's a very good thing; that Foci were the only objects in the universe without a BODY total always looked to me to be one of the most bizarre changes to 4th edition, and I was disappointed that wasn't fixed with 5th. Does anyone have any idea about the rationale there?

 

Dissatisfaction with Focus breakage rules was one of the things that motivated me to go with Vehicles for most powered armor with 4th edition. Another was to give the powered armor characters appropriate motivation to spend points outside the Focus, since you'll only get the 1 to 5 Vehicle cost rate up to 20% of your points spent on it. The rest can go to very appropriate bases, computers, followers, Money, gadget pools, skills, skills, and more skills.

[Christougher]

Yes, it's breakable. If you can do that much damage.

 

You have to exceed the DEF of a breakable Focus to do it any damage. Okay, no problem, if the Focus's DEF is within a reachable range. On at least three separate occassions I've seen "breakable" power armor with armor and force field with a DEF is so high it can't be breached by campaign normal attacks, or even most overpowered attacks from the GM.

 

Is this a problem? I don't know. It just seems wrong to say it's a breakable focus that can't be broken by reasonable means.

[Trebuchet]

Damaging foci can be handled in other ways than just direct attacks. Tesuji has suggested several excellent ways to deal with such situations. In fact his ideas are so good I wish he'd write an article about it for Digital Hero or to post online here. (hint, hint.)

 

Here is how I dealt with a tough focus in my game:

 

Cyberknight (Played by Mentor), a powered armor type, is the only tech based character in my campaign. His DEF is provided almost entirely by his Hardened Armor, and vastly exceeds campaign-normal damage. Anything that can break his armor will probably kill Cyberknight anyway. His sophisticated armor contained a vast array of weaponry and sensors, along with Flight, Life Support and an onboard computer.

 

About two years ago, I ran a scenario where a sorcerer cast a spell over Manhattan Island which put the entire island under an "anti-technology" area of effect. This wasn't absolute, but built up over time, with more sophisticated devices first becoming less reliable ((Decreasing Activation rolls as the scenario progressed; rolls made exactly meant the ability still worked but at reduced efficiency; failed rolls meant the tech finally failed permanently. In other words, I broke Cyberknight's armor bit by bit and power by power, and in doing so I made the destruction a central motif of the story.

 

By the time the heroes reached the sorcerer, holed up in St. Patrick's Cathedral, Cyberknight's armor was practically useless. Only the Carbon-60 based Armor (as in DEF) and partial STR (40 instead of his usual 60) still functioned. None the less, Cyberknight bravely fought on even though he was the only "normal" human on our team, and if his armor's servos had failed his high-tech armor would have become his coffin. They defeated the villain and his werewolf minions, with Cyberknight playing an important role in the battle. His armor was by then was totalled, so he had to replace it with an upgraded set.

 

He had fun being heroic, I had fun being evil. Isn't that what it's all about?

[Farkling]

Focusses are designed to be broken. It's part of the discount you got for your power...if a munchkin complains have him put the damn thing in a milkshake and drink it and pony up the 75-150 points in savings that he took for his focus limitations...

 

-1 = 50% of the CAMPAIGN with no focus....or in combat, say half his active phases where he wants to use it. Or break it every other combat.

 

-1/2 = 33% of CAMPAIGN with no focus....or 1/3 of his combat phases...or every third combat.

 

-1.4 = 25% of CAMPAIGN time....and 1/4 of his action phases, or every fourth combat.

 

Smart villains get to learn faster than dumb ones.

 

Also...rule of thumb....InAccessible Foci are 'inside' the character's defenses according to game gospel. For effects this does not make sense for, the dramatic interpretation would be the "shielding" of the foci by the character's reflexes/reactions.

 

Accessible Foci are outside defenses (that they do not provide)....my house rule allows the "carried object" adder on force fields to extend the field protection to foci. Accessible foci are hit by Area Effect attacks automatically in my campaigns... it really does something for the characters with OAF's. One went for a field generator, one jacked his reflexes (+5/+5 Armor, Only for "OAF of choice"), and one thinks it's a great game effect.

 

Come to think of it....InAccessible Foci should be protected by the characters inherent Power Defense by defintion...if your rule is no, you get what? 3 Power Defense per 1 point if it "only applies to Focus" ?? You want immunity, PAY for it. The same limitation can be put on the Hardened Defense Advantage if bought for the Focus defense.....what's the problem here? I think it works fine as is...although I am NOT handing out durable as a freebie...(but I apply it automatically to Frameworks....they're considered ONE power by the rule...and I think they are inherently STURDIIER powers)

 

Now...villains should not load "foci drainers/penetrators" without appropriate special effects for usage.

If the PC's are doing...well....all bets are off...villains learn fairly quickly and will be able to swap the Accessible limitation for something like Inaccessible, Delayed Segment rather easily, as all that is required is GM permission...and will get right on figuring out how to do it to the PC's.

[Hugh Neilson]

Rule Zero applies nicely here. If the players foci are easily broken, so are the villains' foci. If the players's foci are all unbreakable, so are the villains.

 

Don't you choose between Breakable and Unbreakable when you make the focus anyway? [Cheap shot - I wouldn't let you have an "unbreakable" handgun either.] But the fact there's no cost difference implies the benefits of easy replacement should offset the drawbacks of it being breakable in the first place.

 

I don't see a lot of focus breakage, but disarming an OAF is clearly a logical combat tactic. In some cases, so is using it against you.

[Farkling]

I let someone have an unbreakable gun. Boy, was he upset when hydro hit it with a 12d6 Double KB attack. It went through one and a half buildings, and got picked up by someone in the second building. It didn't actually hit anyone though...he was lucky. He had to post a reward to ge it back.

[Wormhole]

This is why I modelled my spectral viglante's "ghost guns" as Restainable (-1/2) instead of OAF (-1)