Don't be a hater!

[rayoman]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I'd rather be Yogurt from Spaceballs.

 

 

[John T]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

It is always easy to dismiss someone by bringing up a different example that is less specific and easier to explain as a coincidence.

Well, I wouldn't be trying to draw a parallel by using the same example, and "less specific and easier to explain as a coincidence" is pretty subjective. What would you like me to do, bring up every instance in my own life where it seemed as if someone else had "picked my brain" for ideas? Are you simply going to dismiss my point solely on the basis of it's being "less specific and easier to explain as a coincidence"? I had the impression everyone here had a better recognition of analogy.

 

Question 1) Does anyone here expect everyone at DOJ to remember precisely WHERE all their ideas or seeds thereof came from, ESPECIALLY when a primary source for such things has been literally THOUSANDS of posts made by HUNDREDS of posters on message boards that are several years old? Probably not; it's why you often see statements like "Thanks to all the people we forgot to thank" in such situations.

 

Question 2) How would anyone here respond to being accused of theft in public? Poorly? Defensively? Is that analogy close enough for everyone?

 

John T

[Dust Raven]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Not to quibble, but are you talking about the thanks to the Digital Hero playtesters? Note, I'm looking at the playtest versions of Hidden Lands & Villiany Amok.

 

Though VA mentions "Nothing arises in a vacuum" in the dedication.

 

Unfortunately I posted that response before I had read the rest of the thread. If I had read everything before, I wouldn't even has said anything on the issue. To clarify, I was referring to the special thanks to contributers on the message boards (often said with a "too many to thank individually" comment, but a thank you nonetheless).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Question 1) Does anyone here expect everyone at DOJ to remember precisely WHERE all their ideas or seeds thereof came from' date=' ESPECIALLY when a primary source for such things has been literally THOUSANDS of posts made by HUNDREDS of posters on message boards that are several years old? Probably not; it's why you often see statements like "Thanks to all the people we forgot to thank" in such situations.[/quote']

It's that thanks (which specifically gives thanks to posters on the message boards) that I was referring to. I feel it's important it be there, and apparently DOJ as a whole also feels that way. Naturally they feel they owe thanks to their customers, they're a business afterall, but give special thanks to those of us who take time out of our own lives to take part in open discussion of their game in their forum, and I appreciate that.

 

Question 2) How would anyone here respond to being accused of theft in public? Poorly? Defensively? Is that analogy close enough for everyone?

 

I've had this happen to be, though for a closer analogy, it's like being accused of theft in your own home. These boards are Hero Games, it's their website and we are their guests... invited guests. For any one of us to even hint as such a thing in such a place would be like having a friend over to have him make an offhanded comment/accusation that you've raped his daughter. To an author, plagerism is about as serious a crime as you can get... it's ranked up there with rape in my opinion (the rape of an idea, or an individual's thoughts and mind, if you will). I know there are those who just don't see it that way, or believe it's not that serious. I won't say such people are wrong in thinking that way, but any such person would be wrong not to respect the perspective of the author being accused.

[lemming]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Unfortunately I posted that response before I had read the rest of the thread. If I had read everything before' date=' I wouldn't even has said anything on the issue. To clarify, I was referring to the special thanks to contributers on the message boards (often said with a "too many to thank individually" comment, but a thank you nonetheless).[/quote']

That would be the one, thanks for the clarity.

[JmOz]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I had hoped this had died, ohh well

 

Dust Raven,

 

Playing Devil's advocate some here: Do you feel that it is possible that because of the severity a writer would look at a plagerism charge could cause them to be in a state of hypersensitivity, creating a situation where the writer turns a mole hill into a mountain?

 

I do think that Champsguy really should have made a simple comment along the lines of "I'm not accusing you of Plagerism, can we please just drop this", but it seems like his Pride ran amok. I also think his conclusions were a little on the Bull Stuff side...

[MitchellS]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I had hoped this had died, ohh well

 

Dust Raven,

 

Playing Devil's advocate some here: Do you feel that it is possible that because of the severity a writer would look at a plagerism charge could cause them to be in a state of hypersensitivity, creating a situation where the writer turns a mole hill into a mountain?

 

I do think that Champsguy really should have made a simple comment along the lines of "I'm not accusing you of Plagerism, can we please just drop this", but it seems like his Pride ran amok. I also think his conclusions were a little on the Bull Stuff side...

I don't think Darren made a mountain out of a mole hill here. This is not the first time Champsguy and Agent X have made those claims. Hero Games has enough problems without its "loyal" fans running around accusing them of stealing and publishing their ideas. It's not just Hero fans who frequent these boards and accusations like that can spread and cause trouble for Hero Games on many fronts if someone doesn't immediately respond and demand proof [and I don't think Champsguy's offered any proof].

[Susano]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Funny thing, in all honesty I can point at at least one power in 5th Ed that I know is/was "mine." Way back when rocks were soft I was on the playtest team for the inital swing at 5th Edition. Along the way I tested the rules by building some powers for various characters of mine. One such power was a "Battle Rage" power (using Side Effects) for one of my Silent Mobius Zeta characters. When I presented the power to the list with a question of "Well, did I follow your rules correctly?" Steve basically stated he hadn't considered Side Effects being used to give characters Psych Lims and the like, and noted he'd need to adjust the Limitation to account for that.

 

Much, much later I'm looking through 5th and what do I see as an example of Side Effects? Berserk Strength. Is the same power? Heck no. Is it similar? Yes. Do I care? Not really. I was more pleased to see that the concept made such an impression that Steve kept it.

[JmOz]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I don't think Darren made a mountain out of a mole hill here. This is not the first time Champsguy and Agent X have made those claims. Hero Games has enough problems without its "loyal" fans running around accusing them of stealing and publishing their ideas. It's not just Hero fans who frequent these boards and accusations like that can spread and cause trouble for Hero Games on many fronts if someone doesn't immediately respond and demand proof [and I don't think Champsguy's offered any proof].

 

As noted I was playing devil's advocate somewhat. I have to agree that Champsguy's "evidence" does not meet the burden of proof. I must claim ignorance on the issue of liability in an issue of this nature. I do think that Champsguy was not trying to accuse them of Plagerism per say, but more of an admitance that his idea could have inspired them in a "I don't remember where I got the idea from, it might have been something I read of yours" sort of way. Either way, Champsguy's handling of the situation was a perfect example of how NOT to handle this kind of thing.

[Starwolf]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Quite simply I would be flattered to no end to have any idea I posted anywhere be published in any form by Hero. I don't post to any public forum with any expectation of ownership to any idea.

 

If a student in almost any school copies so much as a single complete sentence from anothers work without giving proper credit, that student can be very severly disciplined. So should DW have taken this issue as seriously as he did...IMO...yes. Did he act appropriatley... again IMO...yes.

 

As to the other issue of C-- being Champsguy, sneaking back onto a forum that you have been banned from is dishonest, unethical, and makes a huge statement as to the integrity and veracity of anyone willing to do such a thing. His having made many contributions in the past not withstanding. If I live an honest life for 40 years and then decide to lie to a friend, even if it is the first time in my life I have lied, does it make the lie any less heinous. I have to add a good riddance to this person....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I had hoped this had died, ohh well

 

Dust Raven,

 

Playing Devil's advocate some here: Do you feel that it is possible that because of the severity a writer would look at a plagerism charge could cause them to be in a state of hypersensitivity, creating a situation where the writer turns a mole hill into a mountain?

No, I see it more that Champsguy (or any other individual that just doesn't understand the severity of the issue) was under the impression there was no mountain, and refused to acknowledge the mountain when it was pointed out to him. Regardless of what he did or did not accuse anyone of, he raised a mountain of an issue then refused to take responsibility for it.

 

I do think that Champsguy really should have made a simple comment along the lines of "I'm not accusing you of Plagerism, can we please just drop this", but it seems like his Pride ran amok. I also think his conclusions were a little on the Bull Stuff side...

A comment like that may or may not have helped. He could have said "I'm not accusing you of plagerism, I'm just saying you use other people's ideas without giving them credit" and ended up a fool and an idiot.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Well, I wouldn't be trying to draw a parallel by using the same example, and "less specific and easier to explain as a coincidence" is pretty subjective. What would you like me to do, bring up every instance in my own life where it seemed as if someone else had "picked my brain" for ideas? Are you simply going to dismiss my point solely on the basis of it's being "less specific and easier to explain as a coincidence"? I had the impression everyone here had a better recognition of analogy.

 

Question 1) Does anyone here expect everyone at DOJ to remember precisely WHERE all their ideas or seeds thereof came from, ESPECIALLY when a primary source for such things has been literally THOUSANDS of posts made by HUNDREDS of posters on message boards that are several years old? Probably not; it's why you often see statements like "Thanks to all the people we forgot to thank" in such situations.

 

Question 2) How would anyone here respond to being accused of theft in public? Poorly? Defensively? Is that analogy close enough for everyone?

 

John T

Why didn't you let this die?

 

1) Yeah, it's very believable that someone at DOJ was inspired by something they read on an internet board and had forgotten where their inspiration lay. I know I've done that a time or two.

 

2) Yeah, it's entirely believable that a creator could behave poorly or defensively if someone complained that they had provided the inspiration for an idea and were not thanked to their satisfaction.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

It's that thanks (which specifically gives thanks to posters on the message boards) that I was referring to. I feel it's important it be there, and apparently DOJ as a whole also feels that way. Naturally they feel they owe thanks to their customers, they're a business afterall, but give special thanks to those of us who take time out of our own lives to take part in open discussion of their game in their forum, and I appreciate that.

 

 

 

I've had this happen to be, though for a closer analogy, it's like being accused of theft in your own home. These boards are Hero Games, it's their website and we are their guests... invited guests. For any one of us to even hint as such a thing in such a place would be like having a friend over to have him make an offhanded comment/accusation that you've raped his daughter. To an author, plagerism is about as serious a crime as you can get... it's ranked up there with rape in my opinion (the rape of an idea, or an individual's thoughts and mind, if you will). I know there are those who just don't see it that way, or believe it's not that serious. I won't say such people are wrong in thinking that way, but any such person would be wrong not to respect the perspective of the author being accused.

No one who complained accused anyone of plagiarism.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I don't think Darren made a mountain out of a mole hill here. This is not the first time Champsguy and Agent X have made those claims. Hero Games has enough problems without its "loyal" fans running around accusing them of stealing and publishing their ideas. It's not just Hero fans who frequent these boards and accusations like that can spread and cause trouble for Hero Games on many fronts if someone doesn't immediately respond and demand proof [and I don't think Champsguy's offered any proof].

I don't appreciate you mischaracterizing my statements.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Funny thing, in all honesty I can point at at least one power in 5th Ed that I know is/was "mine." Way back when rocks were soft I was on the playtest team for the inital swing at 5th Edition. Along the way I tested the rules by building some powers for various characters of mine. One such power was a "Battle Rage" power (using Side Effects) for one of my Silent Mobius Zeta characters. When I presented the power to the list with a question of "Well, did I follow your rules correctly?" Steve basically stated he hadn't considered Side Effects being used to give characters Psych Lims and the like, and noted he'd need to adjust the Limitation to account for that.

 

Much, much later I'm looking through 5th and what do I see as an example of Side Effects? Berserk Strength. Is the same power? Heck no. Is it similar? Yes. Do I care? Not really. I was more pleased to see that the concept made such an impression that Steve kept it.

That's wonderful. Obviously, Champsguy felt differently. Of course, he wasn't part of a play-test group for one thing.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

As noted I was playing devil's advocate somewhat. I have to agree that Champsguy's "evidence" does not meet the burden of proof. I must claim ignorance on the issue of liability in an issue of this nature. I do think that Champsguy was not trying to accuse them of Plagerism per say' date=' but more of an admitance that his idea could have inspired them in a "I don't remember where I got the idea from, it might have been something I read of yours" sort of way. Either way, Champsguy's handling of the situation was a perfect example of how NOT to handle this kind of thing.[/quote'] I just have to wonder why no attempt at dialogue in one form or another was offered. Champsguy had been a prolific poster, a positive force in the Hero Community for a very long time, and a customer. I'm not sure why it was better to shut him up and ban him and pretend that DOJ couldn't possibly be inspired by something he had posted. What are they thanking the Internet Community for if they aren't being inspired by it?

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Quite simply I would be flattered to no end to have any idea I posted anywhere be published in any form by Hero. I don't post to any public forum with any expectation of ownership to any idea.

 

If a student in almost any school copies so much as a single complete sentence from anothers work without giving proper credit, that student can be very severly disciplined. So should DW have taken this issue as seriously as he did...IMO...yes. Did he act appropriatley... again IMO...yes.

And Champsguy never claimed ownership. He pointedly said this wasn't a legal issue and never drew a paralell to academic plagiarism yet you guys go on and on about it as it were. That's called building a straw man.

 

As to the other issue of C-- being Champsguy' date=' sneaking back onto a forum that you have been banned from is dishonest, unethical, and makes a huge statement as to the integrity and veracity of anyone willing to do such a thing. His having made many contributions in the past not withstanding. If I live an honest life for 40 years and then decide to lie to a friend, even if it is the first time in my life I have lied, does it make the lie any less heinous. I have to add a good riddance to this person.... [/quote'] There are a whole lot of posters that need to be banned then.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

No, I see it more that Champsguy (or any other individual that just doesn't understand the severity of the issue) was under the impression there was no mountain, and refused to acknowledge the mountain when it was pointed out to him. Regardless of what he did or did not accuse anyone of, he raised a mountain of an issue then refused to take responsibility for it.

 

 

A comment like that may or may not have helped. He could have said "I'm not accusing you of plagerism, I'm just saying you use other people's ideas without giving them credit" and ended up a fool and an idiot.

So Lucas plagiarized Joseph Campbell & Jack Kirby?

 

And, of course, Champsguy isn't here to defend himself but I would hardly compare his intellect to that of a fool or an idiot. If you do then you should count yourself as one as I highly doubt that you are anything more than a peer, if that, to Champsguy in that particular area.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I think it's just wonderful the mischaracterizations and downright ad hominem attacks that have been slung toward someone who can't possible respond. Very courageous stand, gentlemen.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

And Champsguy never claimed ownership. He pointedly said this wasn't a legal issue and never drew a paralell to academic plagiarism yet you guys go on and on about it as it were. That's called building a straw man.

 

There are a whole lot of posters that need to be banned then.

 

All right, AgentX, I tried to keep out of this thread, but I really have to deal with your continuing to make this statement. Champsguy specifically accused us of "cutting and pasting" his work. In so many words. Whether you want to acknowledge this fact or not, that's a crime. Whether he wants to sue us or not, he's accused us of *committing a crime.* No "parallels," no "claims of ownership" necessary. He came on our boards and accused us of criminal activity. From now on, people searching for "plagiarism" and "role-playing games" on the internet have a chance of finding that claim. If we don't take that as seriously as a heart attack we're not doing our jobs. This is not a case of "emotional overreaction," though I certainly admit being falsely accused of a crime torques me off. This is irresponsible, trolling behavior, and it is not something we can or will tolerate on our website. When we pointed this out to Champsguy and demanded either proof or a public apology, he refused to do either. So, he's gone. If we needed any additional justification for banning his sorry butt, oh, there's the violating our policies, abusive language and assorted other malarkey he's pulled, but we don't need it. He's not a positive contributor to the Hero community, even if he's your friend. dw

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

All right' date=' AgentX, I tried to keep out of this thread, but I really have to deal with your continuing to make this statement. Champsguy specifically accused us of "cutting and pasting" his work. In so many words. Whether you want to acknowledge this fact or not, that's a crime. Whether he wants to sue us or not, he's accused us of *committing a crime.* No "parallels," no "claims of ownership" necessary. He came on our boards and accused us of criminal activity. From now on, people searching for "plagiarism" and "role-playing games" on the internet have a chance of finding that claim. If we don't take that as seriously as a heart attack we're not doing our jobs. This is not a case of "emotional overreaction," though I certainly admit being falsely accused of a crime torques me off. This is irresponsible, trolling behavior, and it is not something we can or will tolerate on our website. When we pointed this out to Champsguy and demanded either proof or a public apology, he refused to do either. So, he's gone. If we needed any additional justification for banning his sorry butt, oh, there's the violating our policies, abusive language and assorted other malarkey he's pulled, but we don't need it. He's not a positive contributor to the Hero community, even if he's your friend. dw[/quote']

 

Well put!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

I think it's just wonderful the mischaracterizations and downright ad hominem attacks that have been slung toward someone who can't possible respond. Very courageous stand' date=' gentlemen.[/quote']Someone who got himself banned by his own miserable behavior so he can't defend himself, you mean. Someone who deliberately refused to takes the few steps necessary to allow himself to speak in this forum does not deserve any sympathy IMO. The ad hominem attacks I've seen on this thread have not been directed at Champsguy/C--, but rather at Steve Long and the DOJ staff.

 

I must admire your loyalty to your friend, Doug, but I think it's sadly misplaced. He brought this on himself. FTR, I always considered Champsguy one of the most obnoxious people on the entire boards so far as personality went. His contributions to gaming could often be first rate, but he compromised all that by constantly acting so badly. As the t-shirt says, "'A$$hole' is not a lifestyle choice." I only hope you won't see fit to deliberately join him in his justly deserved exile, although that certainly seems the course you're set upon.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Someone who got himself banned by his own miserable behavior so he can't defend himself' date=' you mean. Someone who deliberately refused to takes the few steps necessary to allow himself to speak in this forum does not deserve any sympathy IMO. The [i']ad hominem[/i] attacks I've seen on this thread have not been directed at Champsguy/C--, but rather at Steve Long and the DOJ staff.

 

I must admire your loyalty to your friend, Doug, but I think it's sadly misplaced. He brought this on himself. FTR, I always considered Champsguy one of the most obnoxious people on the entire boards so far as personality went. His contributions to gaming could often be first rate, but he compromised all that by constantly acting so badly. As the t-shirt says, "'A$$hole' is not a lifestyle choice." I only hope you won't see fit to deliberately join him in his justly deserved exile, although that certainly seems the course you're set upon.

I'm aware that he should be banned. I'm aware of the real reasons why he should be banned and I thought he was way too obnoxious on the boards. I dispute the plagiarism argument. I dispute the notion that he didn't have any reason to believe his posts might have served as inspiration. Did he handle himself well? No. There's plenty to criticize without distortions and I've seen plenty of distortion.

 

FTR, I'm not the one who breathed new life in the thread. And I wouldn't return to post in this thread if folks didn't bring up plagiarism or put words in someone's mouth.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

All right' date=' AgentX, I tried to keep out of this thread, but I really have to deal with your continuing to make this statement. Champsguy specifically accused us of "cutting and pasting" his work. In so many words. Whether you want to acknowledge this fact or not, that's a crime. Whether he wants to sue us or not, he's accused us of *committing a crime.* No "parallels," no "claims of ownership" necessary. He came on our boards and accused us of criminal activity. From now on, people searching for "plagiarism" and "role-playing games" on the internet have a chance of finding that claim. If we don't take that as seriously as a heart attack we're not doing our jobs. This is not a case of "emotional overreaction," though I certainly admit being falsely accused of a crime torques me off. This is irresponsible, trolling behavior, and it is not something we can or will tolerate on our website. When we pointed this out to Champsguy and demanded either proof or a public apology, he refused to do either. So, he's gone. If we needed any additional justification for banning his sorry butt, oh, there's the violating our policies, abusive language and assorted other malarkey he's pulled, but we don't need it. He's not a positive contributor to the Hero community, even if he's your friend. dw[/quote'] Yes he did, in a fit of pique brought on by being hard pressed by another bout of pique. It would be like me fixating on you describing him as "his sorry butt" and pretending that held any weight in a discussion to make a big fuss about a "cutting and pasting" comment.

[incrdbil]

Re: Don't be a hater!

 

Oh well, sometimes you just have to sit back and watch the train wreck.

 

::watches::