Summoner

[Dust Raven]

I was just watching a buddy of mine play a video game and one of the characters in the game inspired me with an idea for a Champions-ish type character. I'm not sure just how feasable it might be though.

 

Basically, the character would be a mystic/spellcaster type, but the spells he casts are summoning spells. He'll have a number of creatures he can summon, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. He can only summon one at a time though. While the creature is summoned, the spell caster basically sits back and lets his monster fight for him, while he stands on the sidelines kinda like a really involved cheerleader (but not necessarly screaming "Heromon, justice attack now!").

 

Obviously this concept implies the use of the Summon and or Duplication Powers (I'm leaning toward Duplication, as that would be more fun for the player). My concern is that such a concept might be a bit unbalancing, and was looking for advice on how to balance it, or reasurance that it's not really unbalancing as I'm thinking it is.

[MitchellS]

Re: Summoner

 

If the character is summoning standard 350 point creatures to fight for him then I don't consider him to be unbalanced. By the time you factor in expanded class and Amicable those summons have a fairly high active point cost. I wouldn't want a player using 500 point creatures in a 350 point game.

 

As a GM I might ask for the player to take some form of susceptability as well. Something like "takes 3d6 when summoned creature is knocked out." That way the character shares in the risk. Of course the smart villains are going to target the summoner too.

[Gadodel]

Re: Summoner

 

I would require a skill roll.

 

If the character tried to summon a 'Critter', they should have KS: 'Critter' (the type of critter they are summoning). If they succeed, they summon a typical example of said 'critter'. If they fail, the 'critter' may not be under their complete control etc. The consequences of that failure may provide a bit more balance.

 

The character may have to 'persuade' the critter to help out, which might mean the character may have to have their pom-poms ready.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Summoner

 

Sounds a lot like Final Fantasy X. (or maybe Summoner)

 

In which case, Duplication would probably work quite well, though some of those summons are probably quite expensive!

[Mister E]

Re: Summoner

 

You could also just consider "summoning" to be a special effect of his powers. Like, for instance, an Indirect EB that has the special effect of being a Fire Imp, named Ignatio Flatus, that he quickly summons and dismisses.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summoner

 

Sounds a lot like Final Fantasy X. (or maybe Summoner)

 

In which case, Duplication would probably work quite well, though some of those summons are probably quite expensive!

 

Bonus point! Well, at least I think that's the game he was playing...

 

You could also just consider "summoning" to be a special effect of his powers. Like, for instance, an Indirect EB that has the special effect of being a Fire Imp, named Ignatio Flatus, that he quickly summons and dismisses.

 

These won't be one shot summons that attack once and vanish. They'll hang around, keep up on what's going on, have a personality, can be attacked seperately from the summoner, etc. They'll last until killed or dismissed by the summoner (I'm thinking killed will make them never every come back again).

 

I'm definately leaning toward Duplication, because that way the player gets to play the summoned creature (and we never have to worry about things like amicable, and can put modifiers so that it's not stunned when it arrives).

 

 

My concern right now is if I have a summoner that's built on 350 points (with many of those points spent on Duplication), and can summon, say 3, different monsters, each built on 350 points each, is that fair to the other players who only have one 350 point character?

 

Also, how is Duplication limited so that if you have more than one Duplicate (different characteristics & powers), but can only create one at a time?

[pinecone]

Re: Summoner

 

You might go with VPP:Duplicates:Major changes(+1),Only rewrites I have written up, so you can make more variations over time, and you only have "one at a time" 'cause thats all that fit into the VPP.......Oh, oh try building a Swarm, because swarms are cool.....

[Mister E]

Re: Summoner

 

What about a Multipower with three Duplication powers in it, so you could only use one at a time?

[Black Rose]

Re: Summoner

 

I've got a couple of questions for you, in re: this construct.

 

Do the summoned creatures appear, do some damage, and then leave; i.e., Final Fantasy-esque Summons? Or do they stick around, and you can hang with them and play and stuff; i.e., Pokemon-esque "I choose you!"

 

If the first, I'd say go with a multipower or a VPP (if you can get away with it) and simply define the Powers as a summoned creature (Physical Manifestation, maybe an RSR). If the second, go with Summon. You're going to have to do a whole bunch of writeups, but it could be very fun. I have a whole bunch of Pokemon writeups I got from someone (Bloodstone, I think) if you want them for the various powers.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summoner

 

I've got a couple of questions for you, in re: this construct.

 

Do the summoned creatures appear, do some damage, and then leave; i.e., Final Fantasy-esque Summons? Or do they stick around, and you can hang with them and play and stuff; i.e., Pokemon-esque "I choose you!"

 

If the first, I'd say go with a multipower or a VPP (if you can get away with it) and simply define the Powers as a summoned creature (Physical Manifestation, maybe an RSR). If the second, go with Summon. You're going to have to do a whole bunch of writeups, but it could be very fun. I have a whole bunch of Pokemon writeups I got from someone (Bloodstone, I think) if you want them for the various powers.

 

Both are inspirations actually. I see the power as working similar to both. Generally, the monster can be summoned for a fight, then dismissed, but can hang around for play or conversation. Maybe a bit more like Drizzt's panther (I forget the spelling of his name, so I won't even try) actually. The key element is that I want the summoned creature to be under the complete control of the player, not like a creature that is Summoned or a Follower.

[Lethosos]

Re: Summoner

 

Gwynhar is her name, I think. (Yes, female celestial panther of Mielikki.)

 

I think using FFX-style summons might do it, but you'd want to tie your history together with the 'Espers', so that they have a very good reason to follow your suggestions and advice. (Commanding is for the stubborn ones, methinks.) If you ever get an opportunity to get plenty more XP, turn your summoner into a support-type character, with powers either affecting both Espers and PCs or just the Espers.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summoner

 

Gwynhar is her name, I think. (Yes, female celestial panther of Mielikki.)

 

I think using FFX-style summons might do it, but you'd want to tie your history together with the 'Espers', so that they have a very good reason to follow your suggestions and advice. (Commanding is for the stubborn ones, methinks.) If you ever get an opportunity to get plenty more XP, turn your summoner into a support-type character, with powers either affecting both Espers and PCs or just the Espers.

 

I take it you're not talking about the supervillain Esper from CKC? If so, I'm not sure what you are referring to.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summoner

 

Quick question about Duplication: the books (I have 5E, not 5ER) says it takes a 1/2 phase to make a duplicate. Does that duplicate automatically appear in the nearest available hex, and is it at full CV, and can it act immediately if it has a Phase in the segment it was duplicated in?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summoner

 

Also, if I put Costs END on Duplication, will it cost END only to Duplicate (pay END once) or will it require END the entire time the Duplicate is in use?

[JTesla]

Re: Summoner

 

Also' date=' if I put Costs END on Duplication, will it cost END only to Duplicate (pay END once) or will it require END the entire time the Duplicate is in use?[/quote']

 

It appears that it can do both, depending on how you want it to work -1/4 or -1/2. For your build costing END the entire time might be more realistic, but then again it's your concept.

 

EDIT: I found this in the Old FAQ:

 

"Q: If a character buys Duplication that Costs Endurance to maintain, what happens if he runs out of END, or becomes Stunned or Knocked Out?

 

 

A: In that situation, the Duplicates collapse and cannot revive until they rejoin the original character and are re-created. The original character would have to oversee the rejoining process, since the Duplicates cannot go to him and rejoin by themselves."

[JTesla]

Re: Summoner

 

Quick question about Duplication: the books (I have 5E' date=' not 5ER) says it takes a 1/2 phase to make a duplicate. Does that duplicate automatically appear in the nearest available hex, and is it at full CV, and can it act immediately if it has a Phase in the segment it was duplicated in?[/quote']

 

I've been playing with Duplication recently, being fairly new that means I have to do my research. I found this on the old faq:

 

 

"Q: Where does a Duplicate appear when it’s created?

 

A: It appears right next to the character in the same hex. The character can choose the Duplicate’s point of appearance (in front of the character, to the left, behind him, and so on), and can vary the point of appearance from use to use of the power (or even from one Duplicate to another when creating multiple Duplicates). The Duplicate, when created, faces the same way the character faces when he creates him."

 

 

and

 

"Q: If it takes a Half Phase to create a Duplicate, does the Duplicate then have a Half Phase left in which he can act?

 

A: No. A Duplicate has to spend the rest of the Segment in which he appears “orienting†himself, and can’t do anything that Segment. He can thereafter act as normal for his SPD. For example, if a Duplicate with SPD 5 is created in Segment 12, he gets no action in Segment 12 (he’s orienting himself), but gets his usual Phase in Segment 3.

A Duplicate cannot Abort while orienting, but could Abort to a Defensive Action in a Segment after the Segment when he appears, but before he can first act.

(Alternately, to keep things consistent, you could apply the same rule as for Summoned creatures — a Duplicate has to use its next available Phase (not a Phase it might have in the Segment when it’s “createdâ€) to “orient†itself before it can act. But while that has the right “feel†for Summon, it doesn’t necessarily match the way Duplication is normally conceived of as working, so using it as a default may not be the best approach.)"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summoner

 

I suppose you could go with a single Duplicate who has a Multiform with lots of muliple forms, or alternatively a VPP of Multiforms only.

[Mister E]

Re: Summoner

 

This seems kind of silly to me, but if you wanted to simulate a summoned creature attacking in the round it is summoned (and thus, bypassing the "orientation" limitation of using the Duplication power), you could Link an attack (like EB, or what ever) to the Casting of the Duplication power.

 

Maybe I missed this explanation before... but couldn't you just use the Summoning power, make the creature slavishly loyal, and let the player control it's actions?

 

Also... how active can the summoner be while the Summoned being is out fighting... If he has to hang back and concentrate... you could build the power as a Multiform, similar to the Astral-Projection or Cyber-Space Decking... where you leave your body behind.

 

Another idea, would be to build the Celestial beings as followers, that follow the hero around using Invisibility, and Desolification, and no Effects Physical World powers. That way, if they wanted to attack, all they would have to do is turn off the Invis and Desolid as a free action, and cut loose. If there was a limitation on their Invis and Desolid powers that stated that the only way they could turn them of, is if the hero maintained summoning them... then they would only be able to be out, one at a time.

[Mister E]

Re: Summoner

 

I suppose you could go with a single Duplicate who has a Multiform with lots of muliple forms....

This would work.

[altamaros]

Re: Summoner

 

I take it you're not talking about the supervillain Esper from CKC? If so' date=' I'm not sure what you are referring to.[/quote']In one of the final Fantasy Espers are summoned critters. You call them, little animation and big attack; and they go away. they're called materia primae in some other versions (?).

 

I have a draft hdc of a similar character on my drive. do you want it ?

 

 

Note from my playtests : be careful with your Gm: from experience, anything that adds character sheets on the table (duplication, summon, followers) tends to slow the game.

 

I would probably admit only one duplicate or summoned creature present in game at a time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summoner

 

If the character can't take significant actions while the Summoned creature is present, the "base character" could buy both the Multiform and the Duplication, with the Multiform usable only while Duplicated (and mandatory when duplicated).

 

The character duplicates and Multiforms. He has a half phase remaining. The duplicate (now the original character) doesn't, but since he won't be taking any significant actions, why would it matter?

[Fox1]

Re: Summoner

 

Obviously this concept implies the use of the Summon and or Duplication Powers (I'm leaning toward Duplication' date=' as that would be more fun for the player). My concern is that such a concept might be a bit unbalancing, and was looking for advice on how to balance it, or reasurance that it's not really unbalancing as I'm thinking it is.[/quote']

 

 

I personally wouldn't allow this concept into my campaign. But that's mostly due to style. I think a *Hero* should fight his own battle, not summon or controls others to have it done for him.

 

Forgetting about that, Duplication would work fine as would a completely loyal summon (I allow the players to run summon creatures myself).

 

 

As to unbalancing, that depends in part upon the abilities of the original character. Is he combat effective without the summoning? If so, it may become a issue with the other players. After all, he'll in concept be able to do twice as much as they can just from the combine SPD of two characters alone.

 

If the original isn't combat effective, you have the problem of what happens when that character is targeted by his foes? If knocked out, does the creature disappear? The character may not be useable in practical terms.

 

I suppose it's possible to have the original character be offensively weak (or even useless) and defensively strong. Odd but possible (maybe he goes desolided with zero movement). This might be the most playable version.

 

 

Something to keep in mind, the ability to summon a number of different creatures (or change into them with multform, or duplicate into them) allows the player to select a "best case" from a line up to meet a specific task.

 

Facing a Human Torch wannabe? Summon HYDRO, the water spitter.

 

Facing a fast MA who depends upon DCV? Summon Area-Effect Lizard.

 

Etc.

 

Thus it's important to make sure the character pays for the optimizing effect of such powers. As a result I require that any other forms/duplicates/summonings are not only under the campaign total point cap- they are under by at least the cost of the original power.

[Lethosos]

Re: Summoner

 

FFVI, if you're wondering. I always called the summoned beasts Espers no matter the version. But that's not the point (besides, I also know the actual term for 'esper'.)

 

I think that if the GM's gonna have a problem with the summoner being the 'odd one out' in a battle, you should consider 'possesion' instead. (Multiform, this time.) You can always explain away that they need a host to act as their physical form in order to act on the mortal plane, and let them 'change' your body. Viola! No extranious guy hanging around, tempting any stray shots that may come his way.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Summoner

 

This whole concent reminds me of the "duellists" in Yu-Gi-Oh!, who fight with monsters that are stored in a very large deck of cards and seem to have an uncanny ability to always draw exactly the card they need.

 

Originally the monsters only existed in the "arena", a sort of holographic playing field, but later in the series the monsters developed a real existence and could be brought out anywhere in the world -- and could affect real objects and people, which they couldn't do before.

[Lethosos]

Re: Summoner

 

Michael, stop listening to my ideas on my conceptual superhero, Deckmaster. It'll be safer that way.