Saving Throws?

[chariot]

There's no mechanic in Hero that really represents saving throws, is there? I could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.

 

I'm not 100% sure they are needed, but I am in a bit of a quandry as I convert some D20 stuff to Hero.

 

Say we have some demons that have the ability to afflict a person with a spiritual disease such as gluttony, or lust. D20 simply states that the demon can do this, the victim gets a saving throw... if he fails, this is what happens.

 

I'm really stuck on how to represent this in Hero. I know there are a few ways, but deciding on the one that I feel will work for my campaign has been difficult.

 

I like the element of chance provided by the saving throw; but I don't feel that an attack roll provides enough chance. Most PC's will not have Power Defense, nor will they have much in the way of ECV (I really feel this is an boecv attack, but I'm still brushing up on 5thEd, so I may be wrong).

 

So, what am I saying here? I'm looking for a boecv attack that will (most likely) transform the afflicted, but there is some way to "resist" the attack that is not represented by "defense".

 

Would anyone say that this is already built into Transform, with the need to roll Body+? Maybe it is, and that is my answer right there... I'm just looking at a special effect.

 

Thoughts, hints, ideas?

TIA,

c

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

There's no mechanic in Hero that really represents saving throws, is there? I could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.

 

I'm not 100% sure they are needed, but I am in a bit of a quandry as I convert some D20 stuff to Hero.

 

There is not. However, unlike D&D, Hero has mechanics for varuious effects. Consider Charm Person. D&D - save or it works. Hero - xd6 Mind Control - if the caster rolls sufficient effect, it works.

 

Say we have some demons that have the ability to afflict a person with a spiritual disease such as gluttony' date=' or lust. D20 simply states that the demon can do this, the victim gets a saving throw... if he fails, this is what happens.[/quote']

 

Transform, All or Nothing. If the roll is high enough, it works. If not, it doesn't.

 

I'm really stuck on how to represent this in Hero. I know there are a few ways, but deciding on the one that I feel will work for my campaign has been difficult.

 

I like the element of chance provided by the saving throw; but I don't feel that an attack roll provides enough chance. Most PC's will not have Power Defense, nor will they have much in the way of ECV (I really feel this is an boecv attack, but I'm still brushing up on 5thEd, so I may be wrong).

 

The other approach, IMO, would be to adfd a limitation such as "Fails if target makes a successful Ego roll" (perhaps at bonuses or penalties to reflect the likelihood of success).

 

I think this has been discussed before, so you might want to search the forums for the term "saving throw" and see what['s been suggested in the past.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

There's not really one built into the system. You generally take your attack, total it up, apply it to the target and see what the result is.

 

If you buy these powers as a kind of mind control, then the victim does get the benefit of a "breakout roll", which is effectively a saving throw.

 

As a Transform, there's not one built in. You could of course add one, perhaps by applying a Limitation to the power, "target allowed 'breakout' rolls". This would make the power less effective, but cheaper to buy.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

I myself came over from the Magical World of d20, and my recommendation is to simply "forget" the Dungeons and Dragons-style rules while working with the HERO system.

 

In other words, don't worry about Saving Throws. Follow the directions in the HERO System: decide what your Power (or the demon's Power) does and what it looks like, then select the appropriate Powers and Power Modifiers. The mechanics for defending against every type of Power are already in place, as described by the board members who posted above me.

 

If you want the power to be unreliable in and of itself, simply select "Requires an Activation Roll" or "Requires a Skill Roll" as Limitations, and you're set.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

saving throws are a *good* thing, so PCs must buy them. I suggest 75% DR mental with an activation roll based on their ego roll to prevent mental powers, one linked to dex for reflex saves etc...

[Silbeg]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

There is not. However, unlike D&D, Hero has mechanics for varuious effects. Consider Charm Person. D&D - save or it works. Hero - xd6 Mind Control - if the caster rolls sufficient effect, it works.

Plus, the break out rolls... these could be considered "saves", of sorts.

[MitchellS]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

If you really want to have a saving throw in you game then consider giving each attack power a limitation: Character only takes 1/2 damage if con roll is made: -1/2. Character takes 0 damage if con roll is made: -1. Adjust the limitation value depending on the campaign limits.

[Rapier]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

The closest you are going to get is a limited immunity (which is basically what a savings throw is).

 

You can use a Desol (only vs dragon breath) -2, a Damage Redux (rED only vs dragon breath) -2 etc. Tack on an appropriate Activation Roll and you're there.

 

Depending on what you need you might have to go with some LS (vs All Poisons, vs All Disease etc).

 

However, as a general rule, do not give all characters Savings Throws. The Hero System is not designed around a "Saving Throw" system and you are going to get some pretty odd results with combats. However, some characters certainly warrant some kind of saves (a hellfire demon may have some additional defenses against fire etc).

 

As an alternative, consider some skill levels (Dwarves are +2 to CON Rolls vs Poison, etc).

 

Hope this all helps.

[Fox1]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

I myself came over from the Magical World of d20, and my recommendation is to simply "forget" the Dungeons and Dragons-style rules while working with the HERO system.

 

I agree with this.

 

Play the game you're playing. If you want d20, pick up a d20 Superhero game.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

I agree with this.

 

Play the game you're playing. If you want d20, pick up a d20 Superhero game.

 

I agree, though i saw a nifty character with an "evasion clone" by Onxyclaw that was DR 50% activation role = dex roll

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

I agree' date=' though i saw a nifty character with an "evasion clone" by Onxyclaw that was DR 50% activation role = dex roll[/quote']

 

Heh, yeah I like Ekatrina too. I just hope she isn't too hot for brian to handel, since she is his rival.

That power was built as:

Near Miss, Advanced Rolling With the Punches: Physical Damage Reduction 50%, Resistant, Costs no End +1/2, Character Must be aware of attack (-1/4), restrainable -1/2, requires a Dex roll (-1/4) [AP 45]

 

The idea was that I wanted her to be able to move with an attack, so it didn't do lethal damage. So that was damage reduction. But I also wanted it to be based on her movement, not con, and only if she could move. There's a con example in the 5th Edition (p. 144), I just changed it to model what I wanted. You might look into that if you really want saving throws...though that's not exactly what I made it for

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

For the most part, resisting various powers is built into the system in various ways already, as has been said before.

 

Reflex Saves are the Dive For Cover maneuver (though this is largely all-or-nothing).

 

Will Saves are the breakout rolls inherent in Mental Powers.

 

Fortitude Saves are the one oddball; poisons are Continuous damage attacks (which generally always work unless you are missed; you could built a limitation into the poison for 'no effect if CON roll made', and transformations could have a similar limitation, though that's generally included in the dice of effect as well (again, as stated above).

 

I'd probably buy 'resistance rolls' into the powers themselves, rather than making characters buy them (though the characters could buy them as well if they want an increased chance of resistance). So, you could make a Fireball spell with a limitation 'Half Damage if victims make a DEX roll', to represent inherent flaws in the spell, whereas a dextrous character could buy Damage Reduction, requires a Dex (or Acrobatics) roll, to represent his inherent dodginess (the rogue's Evasion ability, essentially).

[savagewolf]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

Others have already said it: the reason the d20 uses saving throws is that the character has no other defenses available vs an attack (like the dragon breath) that otherwise would automatically hit. The hero systems has metods for dealing with any type of attack (and none of them attacks hits automatically) . So stick to the hero system and forget "the saving throws" that have no use here.

[Steve Long]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

As others have said, I don't think any such mechanic is really needed in the system.

 

However, my HEROglyphs column in Digital Hero is all about rules tinkering just for the fun of it, and in issue #18 it's about how you might simulate a saving throw-like mechanic in HERO System terms.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

I agree with this.

 

Play the game you're playing. If you want d20, pick up a d20 Superhero game.

 

I disagree. Such thinking limits the GM and the players. You shouldn't avoid a way of thinking just because it is encouraged by a rival game system.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

For the most part, resisting various powers is built into the system in various ways already, as has been said before.

 

Reflex Saves are the Dive For Cover maneuver (though this is largely all-or-nothing).

 

Will Saves are the breakout rolls inherent in Mental Powers.

 

Fortitude Saves are the one oddball; poisons are Continuous damage attacks (which generally always work unless you are missed; you could built a limitation into the poison for 'no effect if CON roll made', and transformations could have a similar limitation, though that's generally included in the dice of effect as well (again, as stated above).

 

I'd probably buy 'resistance rolls' into the powers themselves, rather than making characters buy them (though the characters could buy them as well if they want an increased chance of resistance). So, you could make a Fireball spell with a limitation 'Half Damage if victims make a DEX roll', to represent inherent flaws in the spell, whereas a dextrous character could buy Damage Reduction, requires a Dex (or Acrobatics) roll, to represent his inherent dodginess (the rogue's Evasion ability, essentially).

 

You've pretty much nailed it with the Will and Reflex saves. Fortitude saves need a little work. Personally, I've always been a fan of Continuous Uncontrolled (or continuing charges) poisions that list Target Makes a CON Roll as their condition to stop working.

[MitchellS]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

I agree' date=' though i saw a nifty character with an "evasion clone" by Onxyclaw that was DR 50% activation role = dex roll[/quote']

The question of whether to buy DR or not depends on what you are attempting to simulate. If the attack power has a flaw in that it can't do damage, or full damage, for some reason then that is a limitation to the power [as the example I listed above]. If a character is very good at "saving" himself against damage then that is an ability that not everyone has [DR with the RSR]. Two entirely different things. I don't believe in making the characters pay for a defensive power that is really a flaw of the attack power.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

yeah, you could build it into the attacks instead of the defense, it's just a question of which end to attack the problem from

[Dust Raven]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

yeah' date=' you could build it into the attacks instead of the defense, it's just a question of which end to attack the problem from[/quote']

 

A good guideline on determing on whether or not it should be an aspect of the attack, or something bought by the character who is making such a save is how it applied in general in the campaign. If everybody should be some kind of save versus the attack, then it should be part of the attack. If this particular character is better than average in protecting himself against the attack, the target should buy a defense.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

ah, i'll remember that. and it's cheaper

[CourtFool]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

Some more [thread=6725]discussion[/thread] for thought.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

The thing about saving throws is that they were part of the level/ class system. Different classes had stronger saving throws in certain areas, and as you gained levels, your saving throws got better. So, what saving throws really represented was that it was harder for weaker characters to affect stronger ones, even with a straightforward spell. As you got stronger in d20, your "death buffer" got bigger in all areas.

 

HERO assumes that each character already has a good strong range of abilites at creation, and you increase in power relatively slowly and more intuitively. The absence of a class system leads me to believe that there is no need for saving throws in HERO, just as there is no need for Hit Points or arbitrary Base Attack Bonus.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

The thing about saving throws is that they were part of the level/ class system. Different classes had stronger saving throws in certain areas, and as you gained levels, your saving throws got better. So, what saving throws really represented was that it was harder for weaker characters to affect stronger ones, even with a straightforward spell. As you got stronger in d20, your "death buffer" got bigger in all areas.

 

HERO assumes that each character already has a good strong range of abilites at creation, and you increase in power relatively slowly and more intuitively. The absence of a class system leads me to believe that there is no need for saving throws in HERO, just as there is no need for Hit Points or arbitrary Base Attack Bonus.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Mmm, true. I suppose if you wanted to incorperate a "more points equals higher level" perspective, you could say that the target gets a bonus to his roll for every 50 points he's built on (or something like that), which would be countered by an automatic penalty equal to the Active Points of the attack divided by 10. If you wanted to take the "if you want a better save, buy a better save" option, you could buy CHAR Roll Skill Levels.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

Mmm' date=' true. I suppose if you wanted to incorperate a "more points equals higher level" perspective, you could say that the target gets a bonus to his roll for every 50 points he's built on (or something like that), which would be countered by an automatic penalty equal to the Active Points of the attack divided by 10. If you wanted to take the "if you want a better save, buy a better save" option, you could buy CHAR Roll Skill Levels.[/quote']

 

Basically, I feel that there's no need to confer extra advantages to a character built on more points. I mean... they're already built on more points.

 

Look at it this way: in d20, level 3 is twice as powerful (within the same class), in almost all areas, than level 1. Whereas, it takes a funoodling long time for a metahuman built on 500 points to get to the 1,000-point range through experience.

 

Theoretically, a level 20 d20 character is 20 times as strong as a level 1 d20 character. In HERO, it takes months of campaigning to "lap" your original point values, especially when you may be buying off Disadvantages.

 

(Not that I've PLAYED HERO yet... in fact, I'll eventually be GMng it with no play experience at all! But, my previous GMing experience should serve me quite well, I think. )

[Dust Raven]

Re: Saving Throws?

 

Look at it this way: in d20' date=' level 3 is twice as powerful (within the same class), in almost all areas, than level 1. Whereas, it takes a funoodling long time for a metahuman built on 500 points to get to the 1,000-point range through experience.[/quote']

 

Apples and Buicks here (even further than oranges). We know that 3rd level is twice as powerful than 2nd, because the book tell you that. But nowhere in Hero does it say twice as many point equals twice as powerful. In fact, it typically says +5 points for twice as powerful (in many, but not all, things). STR, extra Followers, extra forms from Duplication or Multiform, noncombat movement, etc. are all like this. So if 5 points makes you twice as powerful, imagine what 500 really does!

 

Theoretically, a level 20 d20 character is 20 times as strong as a level 1 d20 character. In HERO, it takes months of campaigning to "lap" your original point values, especially when you may be buying off Disadvantages.

 

I've played d20 a lot (mainly D&D), and I know this isn't true. Think of the measure of XP earned. It's certainly not 20 times as much as a 1st level character. We're talking thousands times more here, and thousands times more powerful. Or think about it this way? If you sent 20 1st levels Fighters (will full equipment for a 1st level character) against one 20th level Fighter (or any class for that matter, even one that rolled minimum on his HP) and see who's likely to win. Hell, send 40 1st level characters...