No Figured Characterstics: DEX

[Super Squirrel]

Is +XX DEX, No Figured Characteristics worth it?

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

Is +XX DEX' date=' No Figured Characteristics worth it?[/quote']

 

 

Good question. Not much, I'da thunk. We start with -1/2 as that seems to be the base point for 'no figured'.

 

That means that 9 points of DEX would cost 18 points: a saving of 9 points. Normally you'd use those 9 points to buy up speed (Speed is almost always bought up IME in most games, at least a bit), so the 'saving' for the 'no figured' and the benefit of it balance exactly, which does mitigate towards that limitation value....

 

 

.....but, the rules say you shouldn't buy wasted SPEED points back. That, for some reason, is a no-no, so if the purpose of limiting the DEX is to get around this rule, that is a bad thing.

 

Also there are savings if you are buying advantages for the DEX (not sure which ones you'd put on: UOO, maybe?), so if the purpose of limiting the DEX is to reduce the cost of advantages, that is also something that needs looking at.

 

It depends therefore. Certainly the value should be no more than -1/2, and it should arguably be -1/4 or even -0, depending on the build.

 

Sean 'Less than helpful' Waters

[Bloodstone]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

Yes, it's definitly worth it IF the GM has put limits the amount of SPD you can buy.

 

+3 DEX, NFC costs 6 points.

 

This is WAY more cost effective then spending approx 20 pts on: CSLs to add to +1 DCV and +1 OCV (at the same time), +1 to all Agility Skills and +1 Lighting Reflexes (All actions).

 

Most GMs would frown on that though.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

In this context, I built a potion of dexterity which is a single charge lasting five minutes, but as I built it... it seemed sort of pointless.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

In this context' date=' I built a potion of dexterity which is a single charge lasting five minutes, but as I built it... it seemed sort of pointless.[/quote']

 

Assuming a fantasy game, anything that might allow you to take your DEX above NCM sounds good to me. Thing is, you would not actually benefit from the figured characteristic unless you had a really big boost to your DEX (at least 10 points/30 active - quite a lot for a fantasy game) or you had points invested in speed that were having no effect.

 

In the instance you describe I would probably say it was worth -1/4 at most, just to avoid some smart alec player claiming their speed has gone up, but as it would rarely come into play in any event, I wouldn't make it the full -1/2.

 

You may think otherwise

[Super Squirrel]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

Assuming a fantasy game, anything that might allow you to take your DEX above NCM sounds good to me. Thing is, you would not actually benefit from the figured characteristic unless you had a really big boost to your DEX (at least 10 points/30 active - quite a lot for a fantasy game) or you had points invested in speed that were having no effect.

 

In the instance you describe I would probably say it was worth -1/4 at most, just to avoid some smart alec player claiming their speed has gone up, but as it would rarely come into play in any event, I wouldn't make it the full -1/2.

 

You may think otherwise

-1/2 is fine (I already have it up and don't feel like changing it). Players can't pay points for magical items and even if they could, potions are all Nonrecoverable charges.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

Ahhh...an old familiar soapbox

 

Dex is the ONLY stat where "No Figured" is worth taking.

 

DSEX, No Figured - I can buy +10 DEX for 20 points. Or I can buy +10 DEX and sell back a speed point (yeah, like anyone ever rounds SPD down!) for the same 20 points. That seems quite equitable in my little world.

 

STR, no Figured - 15 STR for 10 points. Or you could pay 15 for the STR, sell back the 3 REC and pay 9 points. The game gives you 1 point back for getting +3 PD and +7 or +8 Stun. You could sell back the STUN for similar effect.

 

CON, no figured - 15 CON for 20 points. Or pay 30 points and sell back the END. Now your net cost is 15 points, and you also get +3 ED, +6 REC and +7 or +8 STUN.

 

You want both STR AND CON. Ok, then, you can buy +15 of each, No Figured for 30 points. Or you could spend 45 points, sell back the 15 extra STUN and pay the same 30, getting +3 PD, +3 ED, +6 REC and +30 END free of charge.

 

With BOD, you can buy it at 1 point per BOD if you take it with no limitation and sell the Stun back. And you can fit it in with your STR and CON, since you're only selling back one figured stat overall.

 

So, who wants a bunch of No Figured stats now?

 

[NB: Some will see this as the old "STR is to cheap" argument. I look at it a different way. Maybe STUN, END and REC are too expensive, and should be reduced in price. The "no figured" limitation should then be recosted for each stat such that the limitation is more or less equivalent to the lost Figured's. I'm sure that's been discussed elsewhere, and let's not derail this thread for that issue.]

[ghost-angel]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

The only time I tend to buy No Figured on DEX is when a characters SPD and DEX both increase when IHID or something similar. Simply because in my head the book keeping on the +SPD and +DEX seems easier.

 

Other than that... meh. I usually don't bother with that construct.

[Dust Raven]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

Oh yes, definately. Especially if you just want the CV and none of those other spiffy thing you can do with CSLs.

[Cancer]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

I've heard of buying limited CON used only to increase the stun threshold.

[APE]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

I have allways considered CV to be a figured char of DEX because it is directly related to the stat even though it is not in the figured area of the sheet. So no figured on DEX means no SPD, or CV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

I have allways considered CV to be a figured char of DEX because it is directly related to the stat even though it is not in the figured area of the sheet. So no figured on DEX means no SPD' date=' or CV.[/quote']

At that point you're only buying Lightning Reflexes and Agility Skill Levels.

 

While not a bad thing .... meh. I guess I just disagree for no reason other than I don't think CV is figured and it's a reason to buy DEX if you don't want the SPD bonus. Otherwise you're buying Overall CVs and that's way too expensive, at which point you're buying DEX and either selling off SPD or putting on a custom Lim of No SPD.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

CV isn't a Figured Characteristic because you can't buy it up directly, the way you can Speed, Stun, etc. You can buy levels that apply to aspects of CV, but you can't buy CV directly. It's not a Characteristic (figured or otherwise) if you can't buy it up directly.

 

Besides...it doesn't appear on the Figured Characteristics table on page 32 of 5Er, either.

[ghost-angel]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

CV isn't a Figured Characteristic because you can't buy it up directly' date=' the way you can Speed, Stun, etc. You can buy [i']levels[/i] that apply to aspects of CV, but you can't buy CV directly. It's not a Characteristic (figured or otherwise) if you can't buy it up directly.

 

Besides...it doesn't appear on the Figured Characteristics table on page 32 of 5Er, either.

Ya, that's what I wanted to say. CV is no more a figured Char than a Skill such as Breakfall is. It's a result of a DEX score.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

Good question. Not much, I'da thunk. We start with -1/2 as that seems to be the base point for 'no figured'.

 

That means that 9 points of DEX would cost 18 points: a saving of 9 points. Normally you'd use those 9 points to buy up speed (Speed is almost always bought up IME in most games, at least a bit), so the 'saving' for the 'no figured' and the benefit of it balance exactly, which does mitigate towards that limitation value....

 

 

.....but, the rules say you shouldn't buy wasted SPEED points back. That, for some reason, is a no-no, so if the purpose of limiting the DEX is to get around this rule, that is a bad thing.

 

It tells me that the rule that says you can't buy wasted SPD points back is a bad thing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

It tells me that the rule that says you can't buy wasted SPD points back is a bad thing.

Definitely .. I always have issues with this. I mean if you end up with a SPD 2.3 you lose the .3 after play starts, but it only costs you 7pts at creation to get to 3. You've got 3 character points that are doing nothing for you essentially. I'd rather be able to buy another skill with that. And it balances out if I ever want to raise my SPD I have to spend a full 10pts.

 

seems like a ruling that is there only to stop potential abuse - which is a bad reason for a rule. IMO at least.

[wowie]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

no figured characteristics only comes into play if you buy characteristics and place them under frameworks. but if you just say buy 10 dex outside of a framework, you get the whole deal, like dex, +s to dcv/ocv and +s to speed too.. right?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

no figured characteristics only comes into play if you buy characteristics and place them under frameworks. but if you just say buy 10 dex outside of a framework' date=' you get the whole deal, like dex, +s to dcv/ocv and +s to speed too.. right?[/quote']

In this particular case, this is refering to part of a power build with the Limitation "No Figured Characteristics" not to be confused with intrinsic rules.

[Ndreare]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

I have allowed buying Dex with NFC. I even require it as a limitation when placed in pools like a VPP. (Something the rules sugest.)

 

For potions and magic belts it fits well also. As I have GM'ed more than one game that an extra point of speed would be out of balance but the Talisman of Jhorn (+10 Dex NFC) was perfectly in place and the +3 to combat helped the group.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

I've heard of buying limited CON used only to increase the stun threshold.

 

For several years now our group has used three 'unoficial' characteristics:

 

Stun Defense

Presence Defense

Mental Defense

 

They are based on limited Con, Presence, and Ego, all only for the purposes of reducing their related attacks.

 

It works well, particularly Stun Defense and Presence Defense-- extremely well in Heroic level stuff. To date it has never caused a balance issue, never been attractive enough to alter a character conception to purchase, and often helps to enhance such concepts as the Brick who 'shrugs off pain' or the skilled martial artists who keeps his cool under the worst conditions-- that sort of thing.

 

With the added advantage that comes of simply listing them as characteristics: no lengthy write-up in the powers section.

[Silbeg]

Re: No Figured Characterstics: DEX

 

Is +XX DEX' date=' No Figured Characteristics worth it?[/quote']

 

Simple answer is that "it depends".

 

From a munchkin perspective, probably not. But, then again, you never get as much utility out of a limited power as you do for the unlimited version (save, perhaps, for things lims like focus, OIHID, etc).

 

From a RP perpective, if it makes sense for the character, then absolutely it is worth it!