Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

[Metaphysician]

"I likee" is mine. Helps explain why Tiger Squad isn't even bigger. . .

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

[MitchellS]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

He certainly ranks as one of the big gun characters of the CU. I was hoping the Sons would be a little tougher though. 350 points just seems so weak to me now.

[Tech]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

I've got the Watchers of the Dragon book as well as the recent PDF with Yin Wu in it. I like him as a character but I really (yes, I must) ask the question:

 

You'd think that with all the years he's lived and with all the experience in dealing with his enemies, wouldn't he have learned to make himself be able to take damage better or least learn ways to protect himself from the attacks of his enemies?

 

I don't want to say anything else so as not to spoil anything for others but really, there are 350 pt villains in the CKC who could get off at least 1 or 2 attacks before Yin Wu really ripped loose at them. I've got personally made 250 pt villains who could do it, too. Yeah, I intend to modify him but still..

 

Ignoring that irksome point, I liked the PDF updated Wu.

[MitchellS]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

I dont' see the problem. He has average defenses, 50% damage reduction, and defensive spells like additional damage reduction and force wall. He seems pretty durable to me. The character is not supposed to be Spider-man quick.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

You also have to remember that Yin Wu is a mandarin, of the old Chinese imperial school. China created a massive bureaucracy to keep "barbarians" at the borders and away from civilized people. Wu is inspired by Dr. Fu Manchu, and Fu would never sully his hands in personal combat with his lessers - that's what minions are for. Dr. Yin Wu has plenty of minions to keep assailants away from his person long enough for him to cast some devastating spell.

 

As for the Sons, their original writeups were relatively low in points compared to lots of other Fourth Edition villains. Don't forget that they often fight as a group, though; with their Teamwork and Array fighting Power they're far more dangerous together than separately.

[MitchellS]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

As for the Sons' date=' their original writeups were relatively low in points compared to lots of other Fourth Edition villains. Don't forget that they often fight as a group, though; with their Teamwork and Array fighting Power they're far more dangerous together than separately.[/quote']

When you consider that they each paid 27 points to gain, on average, +1 OCV/DCV and a maximum of +2 OCV/DCV [and could've purchased +2 Combat Levels and +2 DCV Levels for 26 points without any limitations] I don't believe that compensates for the fact that they can't stand up to a 5-6 person team of 350 point heroes. It's not that the characters aren't interesting. It's just that there is nothing that would allow them to be a real challenge for the Champions, let alone a better-built PC team, IMO.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

Good cost analysis. Yet more evidence for making "Self Only" for Aid -1 instead of -1/2, but we'd better not get into that one again here.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

Especially since Aid as a ‘fighting array’ was a crappy build way back when it was first introduced in the original NH.

 

Wait. On topic. So, ah, does Yin Wu have a son? Who maybe hangs around with MI-6, and dates a Chinese woman with a Japanese first name?

 

---

And is into Fleetwood Mac?

[MitchellS]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

If I were going to design the power it would look like this:

 

Supreme Teamwork: +2 Combat Levels, Offensive Only: -1, Must Be Within 5" Of Teammate: -1/2, Linked: -1/4 [Total: 6] plus +2 DCV Levels, Must Be Within 5" Of Teammate: -1/2, Linked: -1/2 [Total: 5]. Total Cost: 11 points.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

You also have to remember that Yin Wu is a mandarin' date=' of the old Chinese imperial school. China created a massive bureaucracy to keep "barbarians" at the borders and away from civilized people. Wu is inspired by Dr. Fu Manchu, and Fu would never sully his hands in personal combat with his lessers - that's what minions are for. Dr. Yin Wu has plenty of minions to keep assailants away from his person long enough for him to cast some devastating spell.[/quote']

 

In other words, Yin Wu isn't the Yellow Claw.

 

And I get the idea that the Dragon Mandarin is something of an unusual villain -- willing to place the world under his enlightened leadership (that sounds so much better than 'beat the crap out of you and take over'), but at the same time, he's willing to put his personal goals to the side when it comes to menaces to all humanity like DEMON or Takofanes. Heroes might fight and defeat him, but they'd have a hard time deciding to put him in jail.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

Heh...especially since the local government would probably give him a .45 caliber sentence.

[Steve]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

If I were going to design the power it would look like this:

 

Supreme Teamwork: +2 Combat Levels, Offensive Only: -1, Must Be Within 5" Of Teammate: -1/2, Linked: -1/4 [Total: 6] plus +2 DCV Levels, Must Be Within 5" Of Teammate: -1/2, Linked: -1/2 [Total: 5]. Total Cost: 11 points.

 

I don't have my books with me, but aren't limited levels automatically considered to be for Offensive OCV only?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

I do agree, the Fighting Array really should be redone as limited Levels.

 

And yep, Dr Wu is the Champions U's "honorable villain," ala the better portrayals of Dr Doom. In fact, its canon that he surreptitiously aided the good guys when they fought Takofanes and Istvatha.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

That was a real question. The champs universe, to my knowledge, doesn’t have an iconic ‘Martial Arts Master’ that I’m aware of, unless you want to count Nightwind.

 

Alternatively:

9 (18) Fighting Hash Table +6 pts Dex, Must Be Within 5” of teammate (-1/2), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)

 

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I don't have my books with me, but aren't limited levels automatically considered to be for Offensive OCV only?

 

I thought that was only levels built into foci. Just off the top of my head, Cheshire Cat has 5 pt DCV levels that cost End . . . but given how many ‘offical’ characters have No End force fields in their Elemental Controls, that may not mean much.

---

“Hai-kiba!”

 

[Metaphysician]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

Um, there's nothing wrong with a 0 END Force Field in an EC. Its only a power that inherently costs no END that is verboten.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

That can’t be right . . .

 

I mean, that would be absurd . . .

 

. . .

 

Well, I’ll be damned, it is.

 

I’m sure there must be a reason for this, right? It couldn’t possibly be as arbitrary as it looks . . . Could it?

 

---

So I have to buy ‘Uses End’ on my Clinging and Missile Deflection, but can buy No End on my Force Field, Energy Blast, and Damage Shield?

[assault]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

So I have to buy ‘Uses End’ on my Clinging and Missile Deflection' date=' but can buy No End on my Force Field, Energy Blast, and Damage Shield?[/quote']

 

As always, talk to your GM. The rules are, of course, guidelines that they can waive if they choose.

 

Personally, I seldom if ever use ECs any more, anyway. I find Multipowers much more useful.

 

Thinking about it, though, there might be cases for using both, but rarely if ever for the type of characters I tend to play.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

In other words, Yin Wu isn't the Yellow Claw.

 

And I get the idea that the Dragon Mandarin is something of an unusual villain -- willing to place the world under his enlightened leadership (that sounds so much better than 'beat the crap out of you and take over'), but at the same time, he's willing to put his personal goals to the side when it comes to menaces to all humanity like DEMON or Takofanes. Heroes might fight and defeat him, but they'd have a hard time deciding to put him in jail.

 

 

And yep' date=' Dr Wu is the Champions U's "honorable villain," ala the better portrayals of Dr Doom. In fact, its canon that he surreptitiously aided the good guys when they fought Takofanes and Istvatha.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't give Wu too much credit for helping defend against Takofanes, Istvatha V'han and their ilk. After all, if someone conquers the world before he gets the chance, Wu's prospects for career advancement become seriously limited. Heck, even Dr. Destroyer has allied with the world's heroes against the various alien invaders who have plagued Earth, and he's a well-known backstabber. OTOH since the CU still has the Dragon and the Tournament of the Dragon, it probably still has the Watchers of the Dragon; and assuming Dr. Wu remains a member of that august body, he's unarguably working toward the greater good of all humanity. Of course he would doubtless assert that the greater good of all humanity would be best served if the world was run like imperial China with himself as Emperor, but hey, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

 

However, one of the more intriguing scenes from Watchers of the Dragon was Seeker's parlay with Yin Wu. Seeker obviously expected that Wu would uphold a truce with him once the Dragon Mandarin had granted it, and the discourse between them was remarkably civil. It's good to have at least a few recurring villains in a campaign who the PCs can trust to keep their word; otherwise the players will become paranoid, looking for thorns in every extended olive branch. Nevertheless, from his writeup it's clear that the Doctor is as ruthless and megalomaniacal as most would-be world conquerors - he's just civilized about it.

 

One other thing that I really like about these Yin Wu-related materials is his extensive spell list. The names, SFX and "flavor" of these spells is very different from those inspired by Western magical traditions which we see in most RPGs and other HERO supplements. I would definitely make some of these available to super-mage characters trained in Eastern magical disciplines.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

That can’t be right . . .

 

I mean, that would be absurd . . .

 

. . .

 

Well, I’ll be damned, it is.

 

I’m sure there must be a reason for this, right? It couldn’t possibly be as arbitrary as it looks . . . Could it?

 

---

So I have to buy ‘Uses End’ on my Clinging and Missile Deflection, but can buy No End on my Force Field, Energy Blast, and Damage Shield?

 

In theory, I would agree, its senselessly arbitrary. In practice, however, it seems to be an appropriate and meaningful limit. About 90% of the stuff it bans are the squicky kind of ECs people pump out for no better reason than getting more points.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

I wouldn't give Wu too much credit for helping defend against Takofanes, Istvatha V'han and their ilk. After all, if someone conquers the world before he gets the chance, Wu's prospects for career advancement become seriously limited. Heck, even Dr. Destroyer has allied with the world's heroes against the various alien invaders who have plagued Earth, and he's a well-known backstabber. OTOH since the CU still has the Dragon and the Tournament of the Dragon, it probably still has the Watchers of the Dragon; and assuming Dr. Wu remains a member of that august body, he's unarguably working toward the greater good of all humanity. Of course he would doubtless assert that the greater good of all humanity would be best served if the world was run like imperial China with himself as Emperor, but hey, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

 

However, one of the more intriguing scenes from Watchers of the Dragon was Seeker's parlay with Yin Wu. Seeker obviously expected that Wu would uphold a truce with him once the Dragon Mandarin had granted it, and the discourse between them was remarkably civil. It's good to have at least a few recurring villains in a campaign who the PCs can trust to keep their word; otherwise the players will become paranoid, looking for thorns in every extended olive branch. Nevertheless, from his writeup it's clear that the Doctor is as ruthless and megalomaniacal as most would-be world conquerors - he's just civilized about it.

Oh, certainly. Hence the Dr Doom comparison. He's still a villain, and still wants to conquer the world, but he's also able to be dealt with, and not, in general, a threat to the existence of the world.

 

One other thing that I really like about these Yin Wu-related materials is his extensive spell list. The names, SFX and "flavor" of these spells is very different from those inspired by Western magical traditions which we see in most RPGs and other HERO supplements. I would definitely make some of these available to super-mage characters trained in Eastern magical disciplines.

 

Definitely agreed.

[Tech]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

I dont' see the problem. He has average defenses' date=' 50% damage reduction, and defensive spells like additional damage reduction and force wall. He seems pretty durable to me. The character is not supposed to be Spider-man quick. [/quote']

 

Oh, I agree he's not supposed to be Spiderman. He is a leader type who directs from behind the scenes. However, what's the point of having stats if you're not going to use him in battle eventually?

[MitchellS]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

Oh' date=' I agree he's not supposed to be Spiderman. He is a leader type who directs from behind the scenes. However, what's the point of having stats if you're not going to use him in battle eventually? [/quote']

I guess what I'm saying is why can't you use him? He has 20 defense. 50% damage reduction, 7 speed, 5 levels, and a huge cosmic power pool to give himself whatever else he might need. If the heroes manage to make it through the 1,000 monsters [500 points], which he can summon for protection, I think he can put up an ok fight.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

One other thing that I really like about these Yin Wu-related materials is his extensive spell list. The names' date=' SFX and "flavor" of these spells is very different from those inspired by Western magical traditions which we see in most RPGs and other HERO supplements. I would definitely make some of these available to super-mage characters trained in Eastern magical disciplines.[/quote']

 

Yes, that was something I really liked in the initial write-up of him in Watchers of the Dragon. Though if I'm getting the info on Doc Wu, Ill also have to grab a copy of the upcoming Oriental Bestiary for stats on the monsters he'd be using as flunkies.

 

Heh...especially since the local government would probably give him a .45 caliber sentence.

 

Nah. You can't harvest their organs then. (And considering that, one wonders just what the Chinese govt. would be doing with all those human spare parts in the Champs Universe.)

[Enforcer84]

Re: Thoughts on Dr Yin Wu

 

Many of the powers that don't cost end naturally are the types that don't belong in EC's (according to the official line): Yer life supports, armor, senses, sensory defense, special defenses...