Infinite Crisis

[Profit]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I thought Pariah couldn't die? Isn't that what it says in COIE? Also, Anyone else think the only Kal-L is back is to kick Kal-EL in the cape and make him realize what he is supposed to be again, a hero. It just dawned on me while reading this thread, Superman has been acting real super post-crisis, just not real heroic, I mean, they had to "kill him" in order to make him be heroic. And post crisis, I know I have a problem with Kal-El, I just couldn't put my finger on it, and this is what it is. He isn't a hero anymore, he is going through the motions. I remember pre-crisis, I never had that problem with Kal-L.

[Dominique]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

It's been many moons since I read my copies of COIE, but IIRC, Pariah couldn't die, that was his curse, to live forever. As far as Harbinger getting killed goes, I think she's about as dead as Jason Todd. As soon as a writer feels like bringing her back, he will.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

It's been many moons since I read my copies of COIE' date=' but IIRC, Pariah couldn't die, that was his curse, to live forever. [/quote']

Quite correct, Pariah can't die. At least, not within normal continuity.

 

 

But this isn't normal continuity, is it?

[The Main Man]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

So far, I'm liking all of this Infinite Crisis stuff.

I really got into comics because of Identity Crisis.

 

I currently get Plastic Man, Firestorm, JLA, JSA, Infinite Crisis, All-Star Batman & Robin, The Boy Wonder, Ultimate Spiderman, Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate Fantastic Four, The Ultimates, and many other things that catch my interest, mainstream or not.

 

I still don't know half of what there is to know about DC or Marvel, but I work at that comic shop know, so I learn one way or another.

So how's that for new readership?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

As I've posted in many other threads about Silver Age concepts of heroism vs. the Modern age grim & gritty...

 

Silver Age was flawed because it all depended upon the writer to somehow allow some last second miracle of power-use, or rabbit-from-the-hat discovery coupled with "somehow nobody really gets hurt" situations... and this allowed the heroes to be these squeaky-clean "killing under any circumstances is wrong" freaks... because they existed in contrived worlds where this actually made sense.

 

The modern grim 'n gritty had potential... except that it was horribly executed because while it allowed the villains to be really nasty, horrific murderers... and the heroes could be more aggressive and vicious... what they didn't do was change the cause and effect of the world. Villains never seemed to really "end" thus when they came back repeatedly, they didn't just tie Gorden to a big penny again... they slaughtered a bus full of nuns again! These horrific acts played out over and over... yet for some reason, the heroes were supposed to subscribe to some bizarre code vs. killing that makes absolutely no sense in this new, modern, grim 'n gritty world. The heroic effort of trying to take high road of "stop 'em and turn them over to the justice system" was insanely flawed because the justice system was proven to be incapable of handling the villains, who just got nastier and more bloody and awful with every return. It became NON-heroic to let the villains live... every hesitation and kid glove action by the heroes allowed hundreds to thousands of people to die... yet the heroic decision of "I don't want to do... I find it distasteful and awful... but I likley have to kill the Joker, because no other method of stopping him has proven effective."

 

Because of the mass media, characters are product, can't really "end a story" because we have another issue next month mentality... what has been created is a world with zero verisimilitude. As ridiculous as the Silver Age was... and as extreme as the Iron Age (in other comic universes) could be... the current DCU is the most unbelievable of all, because they can't figure out what they want to be.

 

The Marvel Ultimate universe really works... as grim as it can be, it is consistent and does not flinch from the repercussions of it's grimness.

 

The Wildstorm Universe... while horribly written back in the '90s (and people still think of it that way) has a strong consistency within it in terms of tone and repercussions these days.

 

On the opposite end, for Silver Age feel... try the ABC Universe. Tom Strong, Terra Obscura, Top 10... those are solid, fantastic, surreal Retro-Silver style worlds... but as crazy as they are, internally consistent in tone and feel.

 

DC just has had zero consistency in vision or concept. It doesn't know what it wants to be, and has no strong editorial vision to coral the editors and writers into that mode. I doubt we'll ever see such, though it wouldn't be that hard. Slim down the true DCU titles a bit... allow for a lot more Elseworlds style titles to tell all the non-continuity stories... but have a ten to twenty years plan for the true DCU titles (including aging of characters and such, IMO... but that will never happen).

 

I'm just lucky I don't pay for the most of the comics I read, or I'd be really upset. This way I can be a little more philosophical about it... even if I don't like it.

[assault]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

DC just has had zero consistency in vision or concept. It doesn't know what it wants to be, and has no strong editorial vision to coral the editors and writers into that mode. I doubt we'll ever see such, though it wouldn't be that hard. Slim down the true DCU titles a bit... allow for a lot more Elseworlds style titles to tell all the non-continuity stories... but have a ten to twenty years plan for the true DCU titles (including aging of

characters and such, IMO... but that will never happen).

 

Frankly, DC needs more comedy/light-hearted titles. Stuff like Blue Devil, Blue Beetle, JLI, etc.

 

"Consistency in vision or concept" is undesirable. It simply means that all titles have to follow the current fad.

 

I would prefer to see DC publish a mixture of "mature", "horror", comedy and, well, standard Bronze Age titles, rather than have everything the same. Of course this means less consistency - but that's a small price to pay for having a choice as what you can read.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Frankly, DC needs more comedy/light-hearted titles. Stuff like Blue Devil, Blue Beetle, JLI, etc.

 

"Consistency in vision or concept" is undesirable. It simply means that all titles have to follow the current fad.

 

I would prefer to see DC publish a mixture of "mature", "horror", comedy and, well, standard Bronze Age titles, rather than have everything the same. Of course this means less consistency - but that's a small price to pay for having a choice as what you can read.

 

 

And I despise light hearted... go figure. You are showing your age by naming those seminal "post-Crisis" titles. Heck... I read 'em back then, too... hated 'em. I was much more a Vigilante guy myself... or Denny O'Neill's Question. Supers are people with great power enacting extreme violence. I want to see that taken seriously... not done for laughs.

 

Not to say that humor isn't an effective part of the story, but it shouldn't be the POINT of the story. (Certainly not for more than an issue...)

 

Again... by narrowing the scope of the DCU, they can publish more non-continutiy stuff to satisfy lots of tastes. Marvel's Ultimate line does this really well. A tight group of comics with their own continuity. I don't read regular Marvel anymore. (Well, Astonishing X-Men for Whedon... but that's it.) DC should do this.

 

And yes... I want a line of comics that has just a few writers and tight editorial control, so that the "universe" created has a consistent, tight feel to it. If you want Laugh Riot Universe... great... have Giffen, Maguire and DeMatteis create one and enjoy... just don't make it part of Batman going after Mr. Szaz or the Joker on a murder spree.

 

I read comics for the gestalt universe they create. No one issue or story means anything except as a piece of a larger, coherent whole. When that larger whole is fractured and inconsistent and makes no sense... then all the individual pieces lose meaning.

 

If you are going to have continuity... do it right. Or don't do it at all. The other option is to have every comic just stand on it's own... no crossovers, no shared universe. That would be fine with me, too. Then you have tons of comics like Ex Machina or Noble Causes or 100 Bullets... and you read those that you like. Trying to find something halfway in between clearly doesn't work.

[Big Willy]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I'm with Assault. I liked JLI and The Question.

 

The wealth of a collaborative universe is precisely that you can have series with different tones all happening at once. So somehow, however hard Batman tries, the twisted psychetecture of Gotham keeps spewing forth more monstrous grotesques for him to fight; but meanwhile in LA-LA Land the Blue Devil can crack jokes while facing off against his enemy-of the-month and then retire to the poolside for a cold one without a second thought. You don't have to buy both books if you prefer one style to the other; but why deny the opportunity for a team-up where Bats can be as appalled by the Devil's sunny dilletantism as BD is by the Caped Crusader's breathless monomania?

 

The real world has that kind of emotional range; why should superhero comics have to be one thing or the other?

[Blue]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I have no problem with comedic books, so long as they don't try to introduce it randomly into a series. I think of the Issue of the Incredible Hulk that featured "Rocket Racoon".

 

A comedy based series is fine alongside the other titles. She-Hulk had a great sense of wimsy, played of of the rich history of the Marvel Universe, and introduced silly things like the idea that Marvel Comics being "legally binding" records of actual events. So Lawyers in super-powered court cases would site "Captain America #217" as precedent. I would not expect (nor want) that bit of fun to seep over into other comics. But in it's own little world there, it's great.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I'm with Assault. I liked JLI and The Question.

 

The wealth of a collaborative universe is precisely that you can have series with different tones all happening at once. So somehow, however hard Batman tries, the twisted psychetecture of Gotham keeps spewing forth more monstrous grotesques for him to fight; but meanwhile in LA-LA Land the Blue Devil can crack jokes while facing off against his enemy-of the-month and then retire to the poolside for a cold one without a second thought. You don't have to buy both books if you prefer one style to the other; but why deny the opportunity for a team-up where Bats can be as appalled by the Devil's sunny dilletantism as BD is by the Caped Crusader's breathless monomania?

 

The real world has that kind of emotional range; why should superhero comics have to be one thing or the other?

 

Bringing the real world into it is the wrong tact. Real world doesn't allow for violence to be silly and inconsequential... not ever. Violence is ugly and painful and causes lasting damage, financial costs, psychological scarring, etc. My big issue here is... you want a character like Major Bummer... a super who doesnt' want to fight and just wants to laze around... ok... but once you begin to enact violence... especially on a regular basis, you have crossed a line into serious. Someone who casually runs around smashing property and blasting people with a pitchfork flamethrower and thinks it's no big deal is more sick than Batman ever was.

 

All that aside, the fact is that from a dramatic, narrative POV... Batman exists as a reflection of all that the trauma of violence can create. To have him exist in a world where this is not a universal truth, but instead totally situational depending on the whim of the writer of the week... it completely undermines the concept of Batman.

 

Consistency has nothing to do with taste... it has everything to do with a properly constructed verisimilitude. If the whole world was "Blue Devil" world... great. That is consistent, and such a character as Batman simply can't exist in such a world. To try and have the two meet simply calls into question the essence of each.

 

It is one of the greatest fallacies of the comic/super tradition... to assume that any character of any genre with any story can exist in the same shared world. It only works if you have writers and editors ignoring the contradictions... and readers too complacent or stupid to challenge the stories.

 

To bring this back to gaming... one of the things that happens when you try to game/play and emmulate supers, is that all the contradictions and inconsistencies are forced to the front of consideration. One player wants a Batman type... another wants a Blue Devil type... and it becomes impossible to play either of them with any depth or development because juxtaposing them in the same environment shows that they are fundamentally, conceptually different. It may be more subtle, but it is like Superman showing up in the Lord of the Rings. Each conceptually invalidates the other.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Neil,

 

In this we will have to disagree. DC has often, most recently in the Batman/Superman books, shown that the city is the genre for the characters. Importantly, the Blue Devil cannot exist the way he does in Sunny California when he visits Gotham City no more than the gritty "I do what ever I must!" Batman can exist when he goes to LA. Each is altered a bit by having to conform to the surroundings.

 

Batman becomes Batgod when he is transposed because he has to be everything he is supposed to be in Gotham but without Gotham to ground his Pluto on Earth act he comes off poorly.

 

 

For me violence and the consequences of violence exploration have little attraction in what is essentially escapism. I just want to see the Kwikee Mart rebuilt I do not want to go into the personal hell the assistant manager went through as she no longer was able to support her two kids because her work was demolished.

 

Hawksmoor

[ross_winn]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I am looking forward to a DC that doesn't have monthly continuity issues just within Batman titles. One unified world was a stupid idea, and the DCU will have multiple continuities when we are done, thank you very much.

[CBikle]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

the DCU will have multiple continuities when we are done.

 

For awhile...

[RDU Neil]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

 

For me violence and the consequences of violence exploration have little attraction in what is essentially escapism. I just want to see the Kwikee Mart rebuilt I do not want to go into the personal hell the assistant manager went through as she no longer was able to support her two kids because her work was demolished.

 

Hawksmoor

 

And I do... most vehemently. I want to explore EXACTLY what you described above. That is drama and depth of story and meaningful theme. It is the lack of these things in comics that drive me to game, because I want to see how these situations play out. What are the moral choices a PC makes when they look back on the devastation caused by their latest go round with Dr. Death? How does this affect their decisions and life choices? What develops from these situations that provides a consistent depth not to be found in comics?

 

That is the stuff the makes the slugfests and space battles meaningful... exploring the repercussions of such. It also allows for PCs to change the world, not just be subject to it. If they choose to use their powers in responsible, constructive ways (say creating habitable land from a desert) then they should be rewarded for such, just as they must face the consequences of casual, massively destructive damage.

 

To have the ability to build and change and shape the world (as I and my players do) there has to be an examination of the repercussions of the use of power... so that successes are meaningful and failures even more so.

[CBikle]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Silver Age was flawed because it all depended upon the writer to somehow allow some last second miracle of power-use, or rabbit-from-the-hat discovery coupled with "somehow nobody really gets hurt" situations... and this allowed the heroes to be these squeaky-clean "killing under any circumstances is wrong" freaks... because they existed in contrived worlds where this actually made sense.

 

The modern grim 'n gritty had potential... except that it was horribly executed because while it allowed the villains to be really nasty, horrific murderers... and the heroes could be more aggressive and vicious... what they didn't do was change the cause and effect of the world. Villains never seemed to really "end" thus when they came back repeatedly, they didn't just tie Gorden to a big penny again... they slaughtered a bus full of nuns again! These horrific acts played out over and over... yet for some reason, the heroes were supposed to subscribe to some bizarre code vs. killing that makes absolutely no sense in this new, modern, grim 'n gritty world. The heroic effort of trying to take high road of "stop 'em and turn them over to the justice system" was insanely flawed because the justice system was proven to be incapable of handling the villains, who just got nastier and more bloody and awful with every return. It became NON-heroic to let the villains live... every hesitation and kid glove action by the heroes allowed hundreds to thousands of people to die... yet the heroic decision of "I don't want to do... I find it distasteful and awful... but I likley have to kill the Joker, because no other method of stopping him has proven effective."

 

 

I think you could've had both silver and iron age styles co-exist as long as you didn't scrutinize the goofier elements of silver age.

 

Unfortunately DC did this a long time ago by having Joker kill Jason Todd. By doing this, they drew attention to:

 

- the silliness of letting a serial-killing crime boss get captured, only to escape and kill more innocents.

 

- What a bad idea it is to drag a teenager into your "War Against Crime".

[csyphrett]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

And I do... most vehemently. I want to explore EXACTLY what you described above. That is drama and depth of story and meaningful theme. It is the lack of these things in comics that drive me to game, because I want to see how these situations play out. What are the moral choices a PC makes when they look back on the devastation caused by their latest go round with Dr. Death? How does this affect their decisions and life choices? What develops from these situations that provides a consistent depth not to be found in comics?

 

That is the stuff the makes the slugfests and space battles meaningful... exploring the repercussions of such. It also allows for PCs to change the world, not just be subject to it. If they choose to use their powers in responsible, constructive ways (say creating habitable land from a desert) then they should be rewarded for such, just as they must face the consequences of casual, massively destructive damage.

 

To have the ability to build and change and shape the world (as I and my players do) there has to be an examination of the repercussions of the use of power... so that successes are meaningful and failures even more so.

 

You are a lucky man. I have never had a gaming group that even cared about any of this, and pretty much never wanted to change the world at all.

 

CES

[Big Willy]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I think you could've had both silver and iron age styles co-exist as long as you didn't scrutinize the goofier elements of silver age.

 

Unfortunately DC did this a long time ago by having Joker kill Jason Todd.

 

As voted for by the readership, who clearly had one eye on Frank Miller's hints in DKR about "what happened to Jason", and the other on the "goofiness" of the whole teen sidekick idea. Much of Batman's subsequent darkness proceeds in a straight line from that moment, and rightly so.

 

But while it was a traumatic event, it wasn't enough to make his peers in the League doubt their own positions. Why not? Because, as he and they both know, they're not really his peers. Batman is out of his depth as a cosmic champion - for him, defeating Mongul, Darkseid or Neh-Bu-Loh isn't just about working up a good sweat and running the miscreant out of town: it's an extreme situation where he has to think outside the box, go beyond his established limits, risk everything on a million-to-one shot... and then go back to Gotham with a fresh lick of paint on his self-confidence and moral certainty. Clark and the others can't help being impressed by his sheer brilliance in deploying the tools he has; but they can still sleep easy in the knowledge that at least they're not twitchy psychopaths who put children in the line of fire.

[Big Willy]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Bringing the real world into it is the wrong tact.

 

Tack, or possibly tactic.

 

The former is a metaphor from sailing; the latter makes it sound like I'm trying to pick a fight, which I'm not.

 

I actually agree with a lot of what you said in your earlier post about exploring the repercussions of violence. Marvel put out a very good GN a few years ago called "Blockbuster", about the residents of an apartment building fighting for compensation after some superfreaks (the Silver Surfer and some villain I'd never heard of) crashed through it; and there was the classic "Best Man Fall" episode of The Invisibles (later spoofed as the "dead henchman" gag in Austin Powers); but it's not done enough, and I've seen too many episodes of The A-Team to tolerate any more villains crawling unharmed from wrecked helicopters and burning cars muttering "Phew, that was close!".

 

So while in a 22-page monthly comic you can't linger every possible consequence of every punch/bullet/deathray that's thrown, I do think there's room in the American superhero genre for plenty more blood and guts than has historically been deemed appropriate.

 

The only thing we really seem to disagree on is the extent to which a superhero universe should be permitted to mash genres together. I think comedy, drama, horror and tragedy can share the same setting; you don't. That's why I mentioned the real world: not to imply that random violence was somehow acceptable in real life, but just because I think ours IS a world that contains all genres of story.

 

In a superhero comic, there's likely to be fighting: that's how these stories are constructed. But I don't see that one being a bloody gorefest or a slapstick knockabout means the next one on the rack has to be the same. I think it's best that individual series keep their basic attitudes mostly consistent, and save the culture clashes for the team-up titles, or one-off guest shots that actually say something about one character or the other (and I quite accept that I'm asking more there than is usually given); but I don't want to completely do away with the chance of showing the same characters from slightly different angles.

 

It's a strange world. let's keep it that way.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I picked up IC#1 today and I can say I liked it...wholeheartedly.

 

The team really has been working overtime to mesh all these stories together. True if you had not been reading JSA you might not know who the Freedom Fighters are, and thus would be a bit confused when Uncle Sam, The Human Bomb, Phantom Girl and Black Condor appear only to die. Their presence and the "if you survive this it will make you stronger." statements from the villianous opposition help make the story.

 

I am of mixed feelings about Grampy Superman and Superboy-Prime coming back into continuity. I like Conner Kent/Con-El, but I can see where he will have to go. Superboy has to be a Legionaire so that his iconic presence can anchor the LSH (Cosmic boy turned fascist I am looking at you!!!), but the Elder Statesman Superman is just unwanted IMO. Superman has a few weaknesses one of them is mind control: Dominus did it, Brainiac did it, Dr. Psycho did it, The Slug did it, and now Max Lord did it. Yes, an out of whack Superman is the world's worst nightmare. But, Superman has great PR and is what many people are not: honestly contrite about his mistakes. When people are injured by him and his actions he cares. So what purpose is ESS going to serve?

 

I await IC#2 to find out.

 

Anxiously!

 

Hawksmoor

[Savinien]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

ESS is going to remind everyone why super-heroes have the word super in front of the word hero. He was the man the phrase was coined around and all the whining, angst, and fallso from grace will be averted by this man, the first, true... Super Man.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Ah but how?

 

That is the catch.

 

If he is an even more holier than thou boyscout than the existing Superman how does that work?

 

Would you like an alterego of you jumping out of the closet and saying "Tut Tut! You have strayed far young Savinen! I will show you the true path!"

 

I am anxiously awaiting the writing on the next issues, hopefully Liefield will not be allowed to do anything on them for the next year.

 

Hawksmoor

[Blue]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I could sure use a wiser version of me to help out.

 

How many issues is this series? (It probably says on the cover, but I forgot to look)

[CBikle]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

Actually, if anything, the golden age Superman's personality was a lot closer to Batman's. He knew if you were full of crap and wasn't above getting cooperation through brute force or duress. He even slapped a woman in a very early issue of Action Comics.

[BlackSword]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I could sure use a wiser version of me to help out.

 

How many issues is this series? (It probably says on the cover, but I forgot to look)

I believe its a 7 issue story arc, though I am sure that it will be intertwined through other monthlies.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Infinite Crisis

 

I could sure use a wiser version of me to help out.

 

How many issues is this series? (It probably says on the cover, but I forgot to look)

In "Infinite Crisis"? 52...it's a weekly arc spanning the entire year. After that, the reboot, forwarding one year in advance in comic continuity.

 

Or, um, did I miss the reference to something else?