Chronicles of Gor

[ultrium]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

First, they imported a lot of fauna. Humans were just another life form. Probably some kind of ecological experimentation. I think it was imlied they had moved their whole planet in from another solar system.

 

As for keeping the tech level low;

 

first, it's low only in certain aspects. Some Goreans do apparently know and use electricity, for example, and their healers can even halt the aging process. The average civilized Gorean is effectively immortal, in the sense of never aging.

 

second, where it's restricted, it keeps Humans (and Kurii, the other sentient species around) from becoming a threat.

 

third, they don't want Humans to develop an industrial society with the attendent pollution and muck up their ecology. Given their concern with ecology in fact, the reason for importing fauna might have been an attempt to rebalance an ecology they had already ruined, thus learning the hard way how important it is.

 

LA

p

 

Thanks for the info

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

*stares at his feet a moment' date=' pondering. Takes a [i']deep[/i] breath*

 

And, what followed was one of the most erudite rebuttals I have seen in a long long time.

 

Well done! Repped!

[Capt JT Kohonez]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

Your post Sir makes my arguement for me.

 

I never said no one could express their opinion. I just felt based on these posts that those opinions were not thought through. As I stated I could be wrong about that. But what bothers me is that too many people seem to be obsessed the idea of "right thinking" nowadays. I've read one of John Norman's books and a friend of mine read them all. But here I find people taking one aspect of a writer's fantasy world and using it to build a cross to crucify him without considering the other aspects of that world. That's utter nonsense. By that analogy I could take Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan as being racist based on the idea of a white man being Lord of the Apes simply because no one from the surrounding black tribes was given the job.

 

As for me "coming from on high", that is your perception not mine.

 

 

*stares at his feet a moment' date=' pondering. Takes a [i']deep[/i] breath*

 

Capt. JT Kohonez: It's inflammatory rhetoric like this which incites me to riot. I'm going to try and write this as flame-free as possible, and offer my opinion without tripping on my own athame.

 

 

 

You're correct. It is. And most fantasy is based on another person's interpretation of reality, whether that reality is an idealized state or merely a reflection of their views at the time, or an expression of frustration, guilt, pain or loss. My own work is a reflection of how I see the world. I paint in lots and lots of grey, dark blues, and blood, blood red. My love is like a red red rose, that was formerly white, before I sprayed blood on a rose bush.

 

Hey, it's just fiction. But now it's fiction talking about despoiling flowers and possibly murder - I actually edited my original passage because it was too evocitive and clear an image, and I didn't want to rattle anyone's cages. Had I left the passage intact, I may very well have draw a warning flag and gotten an edit for it. That isn't to say I was wrong for saying it; it's to say that people can read it and be offended.

 

Your defense: It's fiction, therefore we are the thought police - is inherently flawed. No one is saying you can't read it. There were lots of people who suggested reading something else, but hey. We aren't talking about limitations on open minded thinking. We're talking about personal opinions on a work which seems, generally speaking, to not be well appreciated.

 

The Fool brings up two excellent points. First, just because it's billed as fiction doesn't mean some idiot isn't taking it seriously. Second, it's people like this that give people like him (BDSM in general) a bad name.

 

Next. Yes, some people are going to be of the opinion people like him should dissapear. But why take that so seriously? It's only an opinion. Your argument is double edged in all the wrong ways; you're defending the author's right to write and publish whatever he pleases, even though some find it outright disgusting, but then condeming people for holding opinions contrary to his, or to the extent that he shouldn't be around. Those people are expressing disgust and anger, and it's well within their rights to do so, as much as it is within the author's rights, or yours, to rail against it and defend his work.

 

Which, I might add, you are free to do. Defend away. People don't always like my work, they criticize my work, but I don't freak out about it. I stare at it, think about it (see my post on building a magic system - that's not only a lot of criticism, a lot of it is countering criticism, which is really confusing) and I take it in, think about it, digest it, and produce more work.

 

However. (You know you were all waiting for it). However.

 

 

 

This is the sort of absurdist statement that positively rattles my cage. You think I don't know what the deuce I'm talking about, hey. Totally cool. You disagree with Liaden, or The Fool, or Killer Shrike, hey, I'm down. Disagree away. But to take a few posters opinions - posters who clearly aren't fond of the source material - and then accuse not only of being thought police - i.e., telling other people what to do with the assumption that they have the authority to enforce it - but further raising the accusation that they're knee jerk reactions flamers who are spraying hate at an author with no thought for the work, what it means to them, or what it represents. Now that's ignorance at its finest.

 

Read the rest of the posts. By all means, form your own opinion of Gor. Defend it, if you like. More power to you. But don't come down from on high, insist that everyone is wrong because they disagree and then proceed to insult all of us, unilaterally, for having an opinion different from yours.

 

 

 

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

Capt. JT Kohonez: Like I said, you're totally free to have an opinion, and good heavens, by all means feel free to disagree with me and anything I say. The offense I took was specific:

 

Originally Posted by Capt. JT Kohonez

You know I used to think gamers put more thought into what they said then most.

I guess I was wrong.

 

I'm all about people disagreeing, arguing, debating, whatever. I haven't read the books, but the discussion on the board as a whole in regards to how people take the material and then live it out is both enlightening, and somewhat disturbing. I'm not about telling people what they can, can't, or shouldn't read. Whatever puts gravy on your muffin, man.

 

I do, personally, take offense to blanket assaults, specifically those which attack me (as a poster, and a gamer) directly through their broad strokes. I would submit your closing argument might have been better submitted as:

 

"I thought that gamers read material before making statements about it, or broad, unfair assumptions. Maybe I was wrong." In this version, it's clear you're displeased with the attitude towards the books in general, and while it's still a strong statement, it becomes much more targeted while keeping (near as I can tell) your original point.

 

Insofar as "right thinking," how a people treat each other is a measure of civility. I'm down with right thinking. I'm also down for a number of other things involving leather, straps and rug burn. My original fiance was so rough that I had welts and bite marks for weeks; I couldn't go outside without full sleeves and a turtleneck, that's just the way it was. My point here being that there's a difference between being deviant and being disruptive; that how people behave by choice is not necessarily how they feel others should be treated in polite society. So I'm a big proponent of "right thinking" in terms of giving people the appropriate freedom to then make their own decisions on how they wish to be treated.

 

No harm, no foul. You made a point, and I felt a need to counter it. In my estimation, your statements were very high handed, and that was one of the things I addressed. Pax.

[SatinKitty]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

I was a Tuchuck for two years. Then I discovered OddHat and Champions. Now I don't argue with men with those attitudes, I blow them away.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

Point taken, ma'am, but my point remains. Everyone is entitled to an opinion; their freedom to display it is as much an inherent right as my freedom to argue. However.

 

Deep down?

 

I'm with you.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

I was a Tuchuck for two years.

A what?

[McCoy]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

A what?

She could tell you, but once she does she can never un-tell you. Trust me, you are happier without that image in your head. Just walk away.

[Badger]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

I too am not completely sure what a Tuchuck is but I gather it may be one of those things that the very knowledge of which can drive a mortal insane. Am I right in thinking that sometimes ignorance is bliss?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

I was a Tuchuck for two years. Then I discovered OddHat and Champions. Now I don't argue with men with those attitudes' date=' I blow them away. [/quote']

I wanna see pics!!!!!!

Damn new board rules....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

A Tuchuck (pronounced "two-chuck") is a specific clan within the Society for Creative Anachronism. Tuchucks generally only associate with other Tuchucks; they're generally disliked for their misogynistic attitudes and open-hand slap treatment of women in general. Which isn't to say that's bad, but it's a matter of who you're asking; the Tuchucks or anyone else.

 

To be fair, they've simply taken their experience to its logical conclusion; for some it's a fantasy and being a Tuchuck is a fantasy existence; like a medieval, rattan swinging biker gang, and tuchuck girls can be equated to biker chicks. Some groove on it, some bail. They drink, shag, yell, and swing weapons at people, and generally enjoy their reputation.

 

Pics you don't wanna see. And any further elaboration may scar you, but I think I've given as fair & open minded an answer as possible, for someone who isn't a tuchuck.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

If I was really really drunk, I might party with those dudes...

 

But, I'd never join 'em.

[Lucius]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

A Tuchuck (pronounced "two-chuck") is a specific clan within the Society for Creative Anachronism. .

 

 

I had the impression they were not, technically, in the SCA, although by longstanding tradition they are allowed to certain events, especially wars.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If THEY can be in the SCA, I should be able to get a palindromedary in...

[Susano]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

I had the impression they were not' date=' technically, in the SCA, although by longstanding tradition they are allowed to certain events, especially wars.[/quote']

 

That would be correct. They can come to SCA events and fight, provided they have the proper authorizations and the like.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

For those of you who haven't read Gor, here's something that will probably give you a good idea of what the series is like:

 

HOUSEPLANTS OF GOR

A Parody by Ellerol

 

The spider plant cringed as its owner brought forth the watering can. "I am a spider plant!" it cried indignantly. "How dare you water me before my time! Guards!" it called. "Guards!"

 

Borin, its owner, placed the watering can on the table and looked at it. "You will be watered," he said.

 

"You do not dare to water me!" laughed the plant.

 

"You will be watered," said Borin.

 

"Do not water me!" wept the plant.

 

"You will be watered," said Borin.

 

I watched this exchange. Truly, I believed the plant would be watered. It was plant, and on Gor it had no rights. Perhaps on Earth, in its permissive society, which distorts the true roles of all beings, which forces both plant and waterer to go unhappy and constrained, which forbids the fulfillment of owner and houseplant, such might not happen. Perhaps there, it would not be watered. But it was on Gor now, and would undoubtedly feel its true place, that of houseplant. It was plant. It would be watered at will. Such is the way with plants.

 

Borin picked up the watering can, and muchly watered the plant. The plant cried out. "No, Master! Do not water me!" The master continued to water the plant. "Please, Master," begged the plant, "do not water me!" The master continued to water the plant. It was plant. It could be watered at will.

 

The plant sobbed muchly as Borin laid down the watering can. It was not pleased. Too, it was wet. But this did not matter. It was plant.

 

"You have been well watered," said Borin.

 

"Yes," said the plant, "I have been well watered." Of course, it could be watered by its master at will.

 

"I have watered you well," said Borin.

 

"Yes, master," said the plant. "You have watered your plant well. I am plant, and as such I should be watered by my master."

 

The cactus plant next to the spider plant shuddered. It attempted to cover its small form with its small arms and small needles. "I am plant," it said wonderingly. "I am of Earth, but for the first time, I feel myself truly plantlike. On Earth, I was able to control my watering. I often scorned those who would water me. But they were weak, and did not see my scorn for what it was, the weak attempt of a small plant to protect itself. Not one of the weak Earth waterers would dare to water a plant if it did not wish it. But on Gor," it shuddered, "on Gor it is different. Here, those who wish to water will water their plants as they wish. But strangely, I feel myself most plantlike when I am at the mercy of a strong Gorean master, who may water me as he pleases."

 

"I will now water you," said Borin, the cactus's Gorean master.

 

The cactus did not resist being watered. Perhaps it was realizing that such watering was its master's to control. Too, perhaps it knew that this master was far superior to those of Earth, who would not water it if it did not wish to be watered.

 

The cactus's watering had been finished. The spider plant looked at it.

 

"I have been well watered," it said.

 

"I, too, have been well watered," said the cactus.

 

"My master has watered me well," said the spider plant.

 

"My master, too, has watered me well," said the cactus.

 

"I am to be placed in a hanging basket on the porch," said the spider plant.

 

"I, too, am to be placed in a hnaging basket on the porch," said the cactus.

 

"I wish you well," said the spider plant.

 

"I, too, wish you well," said the cactus.

 

"Tal," said the spider plant.

 

"Tal, too," said the cactus.

 

I did not think that the spider plant would object to being watered by its master again. For it realized that it was plant, and that here, unlike on Earth, it was likely to be owned and watered by many masters.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

Mutant For Hire: ...

 

No, really, I don't think I can reasonably form any other reaction. I was happier when I was just imagining what this would be like, and I'm terrified that the places my imagination went were remarkably close to what you've posted here. "Only by being controlled am I truly free."

 

Just.

 

No. Thank you for the enlightening post, but. Wow. Just.

 

Wow.

[Trencher]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

LoL! Mutant for hire!

That was funny! You really captured the pathetic and preachy part of the nazi/sadist/misogynist/authoritarian/general evil mindset.

[Seavious]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

Hmm interesting conversation you have going here.

I read the series way back in high school and even though I probably would find fault in about every paragraph today, back then I really enjoyed them. Maybe it was because I was a computer nerd and had zero luck with the girls until after college. So found all the sex stuff to be interested.

As I recall I really enjoyed the first few books when Tarl was Mr. Starry eyed, overly ethical do-gooder. And started to dislike him more and more after about book five when be started going be the name “Big Cow†or something to that effect. But the series picked up something new and fun to me and that was Naval Tactics and Pirates which I still enjoy as subject mater.

However after about 10 or so books it seemed that Mr Norman just ran out of ideas for new places for his character to go and the whole thing got rather dull.

I also read his book Time Slave, at one point. Basically same stuff different eon.

The funny thing is as I have heard, and this is hear say but from multiple reliable sources that Mr. Norman is a rather hen pecked meek kind of a guy that is ruled by his wife. Hmm wonder where his stories come from J

In short it was a fun read as a teenage boy, but not really a world I would set a game in.

But the Tarns, Priest Kings and Kurr were all pretty cool I may work them into a game or two here and there.

Seavious

[Mister E]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

I just read out-loud the Gorean Plant Parady to my friends, and they were muchly amused. Too, it was their place to be amused.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

And they were well amused, and liberated by their master amusing them.

 

Give me a f***ing break. GAHD.

 

I need a shower. Without my master telling me its my place to be watered. Heavens.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

~still laughing~

[Curufea]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

Repped!

[Edsel]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

Repped some more!

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

I would point out that I did not write this. There are credits to someone's pseduonym beneath the main title. Frankly I do not have a diseased enough imagination to write something like this (though I am working on it). This has been circulating around the Net for years now.

 

And yes, this is a pretty accurate version of the writing style and the philosophy of the books. And I would remind people that there are Goreans who try to roleplay this in RL.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Chronicles of Gor

 

I would point out that I did not write this. There are credits to someone's pseduonym beneath the main title. Frankly I do not have a diseased enough imagination to write something like this (though I am working on it). This has been circulating around the Net for years now.

 

And yes, this is a pretty accurate version of the writing style and the philosophy of the books. And I would remind people that there are Goreans who try to roleplay this in RL.

Which is why even a lot of very openminded kinky folk laugh at them.

 

I just read it to my Niamh.

 

She laughed and rolled her eyes muchly.