By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I am saying that if you're going to keep playing this 'Oh' date=' so now you are saying...?' game, there's really no point in us talking further tonight. I had enough aggro with incrdbil when he was busy coming up with new ways to put words in my mouth, so doing the same dance again with you ranks slightly below 'drilling my own teeth with a 3/8ths-inch diamond tip' as regards comfort scale.[/quote']

 

I'm asking you to clairfy what you mean by a cakewalk Chuckg. I have a team with a 12D6 Flash, 12D6 HHA that can be used with a 12- Find Weakness, an 3D6 NND not vs. Self Contained Breathing 6 charges, 6D6 Ego attack, and a 30pt VPP. Is Gravitar a cakewalk for them because they have these powers?

 

It feels to me like Incredibil made an exageration several pages back. You jumped to a conclusion based on that exageration. Now you are trying to hold on to some moral high ground where you are right and Incrdibil is wrong.

 

In trying to do this you really are creating a situation where you are claiming that any fight against Gravitar where she looses is because the GM is giving it to the players. I don't think that you are intending to say that, but that is how it sounds.

 

Could you describe a situation for me where the other characters have a chance to take Gravitar down and you not consider it a "gimme"?

[Susano]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Could you describe a situation for me where the other characters have a chance to take Gravitar down and you not consider it a "gimme"?

 

Orbital laser cannon, like they had in Akira.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Not just the Flash alone. Not just any one thing... alone.

 

All the things -- both powerset-wise and in situational advantage -- that they had running in *combination*? Yes.

 

All analyses and lines of logic that take the tack 'well Gravitar could have crushed any one of them' are IMO flawed, because they make no allowance for synergy.

 

The problem is that they all have to be up for them to get that synergy going, and given what kind of attacks she has, those would have to be some frighteningly munchkin builds for her not to be able to one shot a number of them at 360 pts, and they still have options that allow them to attack her.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Orbital laser cannon' date=' like they had in [i']Akira[/i].

 

Gee, I don't know is that anything like the one they had in episodes one and two of BGC? (Yeah, I'm a fan boy wank that wouldn't go good anime if it bit me in the ***. So what?) How many points would you have to build it on for it to have the following:

 

A) a decent (say 50%) chance to hit her.

on average get enough damage through her defences

 

Please, note that I would agree that if the OCV were too high and the damage were too high it does become a gimme.

[Susano]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Gee' date=' I don't know is that anything like the one they had in episodes one and two of [i']BGC[/i]? (Yeah, I'm a fan boy wank that wouldn't go good anime if it bit me in the ***. So what?) How many points would you have to build it on for it to have the following:

 

A) a decent (say 50%) chance to hit her.

on average get enough damage through her defences

 

Please, note that I would agree that if the OCV were too high and the damage were too high it does become a gimme.

 

Basically.

 

As for hitting her, the Akira laser covers... ... *think* a pretty wide circle. Like 25+ yards across. And it can vaporize a person in a single shot (4d6+ RKA) and blows really big holes in a sports stadium. I'd peg it as 6d6 RKA with AoE Radius. Maybe even AP, since it is a laser after all. Oh, and Indirect -- straight down.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Basically.

 

As for hitting her, the Akira laser covers... ... *think* a pretty wide circle. Like 25+ yards across. And it can vaporize a person in a single shot (4d6+ RKA) and blows really big holes in a sports stadium. I'd peg it as 6d6 RKA with AoE Radius. Maybe even AP, since it is a laser after all. Oh, and Indirect -- straight down.

 

OK, just to keep the derail going.

 

Why Indirect? Given the sfx that is being modeled, Id probably go with AoE Any Area, bought up with enough hexes that I could create a 14" in diameter cylinder from the satelite to the surface of the earth and a little beyond.

 

6D6 RKA AP is just a bit of what I meant by being large enough damage for me to call it a gimme.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Oh, yeah and IRC the BGC oribital laser cannon was much more tightly focused. I think it was at must a hex wide.

[Gary]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

The silly thing about Gravitar is that she'd actually save points by converting her multipower to a VPP Cosmic (+2) Gravity Powers only (-1/2) for 180 pts total. And this would effectively make her undefeatable by virtually any 350 pt group without at least 2 mentallists or mages. (Flash defense and life support would be easy to justify for gravity powers).

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Personally, I'm still shocked by the lack of the Power Skill. She has a big KS: Gravity, something like 17 "Gravity Tricks", and no Power Skill. What's up with that?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

The silly thing about Gravitar is that she'd actually save points by converting her multipower to a VPP Cosmic (+2) Gravity Powers only (-1/2) for 180 pts total. And this would effectively make her undefeatable by virtually any 350 pt group without at least 2 mentallists or mages. (Flash defense and life support would be easy to justify for gravity powers).

 

This strikes me as not being an accident.

[Susano]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

OK, just to keep the derail going.

 

Why Indirect? Given the sfx that is being modeled, Id probably go with AoE Any Area, bought up with enough hexes that I could create a 14" in diameter cylinder from the satelite to the surface of the earth and a little beyond.

 

6D6 RKA AP is just a bit of what I meant by being large enough damage for me to call it a gimme.

 

Because the shot comes straight down from overhead. Actually, the cannon doesn't get Indirect, but since the Colonel at one point had a targeting device with an uplink he could get away with buying the attack with Indirect -- but that's a bit much.

[Starlord]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If we're going to talk about from a metagaming standpoint, then here's my opinion -- from a metagaming standpoint, running villains as stupider than they're supposed to be would only cause dissatisfaction among my players. We *hate* the 'jobber syndrome'.

 

Or, as I said earlier, if you're gonna go this route then why not just put parsley behind her ears, stuff an apple in her mouth, and ring a dinner bell?

 

Yes, indeed, there are oodles of comics where the villain does indeed act conveniently stupid so as to get the story to its conclusion on time.

 

Those comics are usually quite forgettable.

 

Then there's the comics where the villain, you know, doesn't do this, but instead makes the heroes really work for the win instead of conveniently walking straight into a blitzkrieg.

 

Those comics are usually *not* forgettable.

 

I much prefer the latter approach.

 

- You keep harping on this 'playing her as stupid' schtick. Sorry, but we disagree. It is quite in-genre and clearly within her personality 'profile' to instinctively react in the manner I've described. Frankly, I think it adds more flavor to the combat than less.

 

- 'Work for the win'? Two points - According to official CU info (and I believe you yourself have made the point also), Gravitar has never really been in danger of losing to anyone. Now she's been ambushed and damaged somewhat.

One - given her power level the battle would generally be far from over after their initial salvo. There's still a lot of 'work' to be done.

Two - Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I believe you've previously argued that upon receiving these attacks she develops the instinctive reactions of a tactical genius even though it's been established that she's NEVER been put in that situation before. IMO your tactical suggestions might even be at best 3rd on her list of choices. If roleplayed properly, she can also either: turn into 'more bark than bite' master villain and flee completely (eh, she doesn't seem to be a coward so...) or she's going to stick with her standard master villain instincts as I said previously and immediately try to lash out at the cowardly gnats who accosted her personage from behind.

 

- Does a high INT score make you a smart, instinctive fighter? Do you play every villain like Taskmaster - perfectly reacting without emotion or personality to every contingency? Even situations they've never been in? Sorry, but seems like there'd be little to distinguish between any villain except their powerset and it sounds more like a real-time strategy game than an rpg.

 

 

Your comment about comics stories is essentially baseless and disappointing in a way. Great stories don't necessarily need all the characters to act cleverly. Off the top of my head: Masters of Evil destroy the Avengers mansion - Hercules played as an idiot (but 'roleplayed' properly), Zemo captures Cap but doesn't kill him right there (STUPID!), etc. Hmmm. Dark Knight books (not good IMO, but everyone else seems to love them) - Batman wins not because Batman is smart...but because Superman is a written as a freaking moron. I could go on but my point is proven. I'm sure I could find stories to assist your theory (and you could as well), but they certainly won't prove it by any means.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I am saying that if you're going to keep playing this 'Oh' date=' so now you are saying...?' game, there's really no point in us talking further tonight. I had enough aggro with incrdbil when he was busy coming up with new ways to put words in my mouth, so doing the same dance again with you ranks slightly below 'drilling my own teeth with a 3/8ths-inch diamond tip' as regards comfort scale.[/quote'] If anyone was putting words in someone's mouth it was you doing so to Incredibl.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

*takes a day off to see if anything will change after making it plain that he's sick of the straw men and BS accusations, comes back, sees that nothing has*

 

Congrats, guys. You've finally dragged a thread so far into futility and flaming that even I won't touch it. If it pleases you to call such a thing 'victory', then go ahead.

[CBikle]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Congrats, guys. You've finally dragged a thread so far into futility and flaming that even I won't touch it.

 

I'm not so sure you're able to let it go.

[Starlord]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

*takes a day off to see if anything will change after making it plain that he's sick of the straw men and BS accusations, comes back, sees that nothing has*

Congrats, guys. You've finally dragged a thread so far into futility and flaming that even I won't touch it. If it pleases you to call such a thing 'victory', then go ahead.

 

What a silly and immature statement, sir. Especially considering you started the debate and were we to ask pretty much every person who has read this thread I'm betting they'd agree to a man that you were the only one trying to 'win' it.

[Metaphysician]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If he was the only one trying to win it. . . how come you guys are all still here??

[MitchellS]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If he was the only one trying to win it. . . how come you guys are all still here??

Sometimes you just like to see the train wreck.

[Susano]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Sometimes you just like to see the train wreck.

 

And here I was going to say it was like slowing down to look at the car wreck....

[Starlord]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If he was the only one trying to win it. . . how come you guys are all still here??

 

Your statement and your question don't necessarily go together.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If he was the only one trying to win it. . . how come you guys are all still here??

I suppose I was here to "win" it in some way. Although the objective I sought to win wasn't necessarily to get Chuckg to change his mind. I wanted him to lay off of Incredibl sooner or, if he wouldn't, realize that he had placed himself out on a limb and retreat later.

 

Here's a question or two for you: Do you agree with Chuckg's assessment of Incredibl's game? Do you agree that his opinion about Incredibl's game necessitated he voice his opinion in the manner he did?

[Niles]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Here's a question or two for you: Do you agree with Chuckg's assessment of Incredibl's game?

Yeah, Pretty much.

[casualplayer]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Players who chump out Gravitar are not going to enjoy playing at any conventions, and will probably have a tough time with any GMs not from that initial group. Gravitar should be a pants-filler, and any encounters with her should demand retellings that would take hours. It whiffs slightly of D&D players who say that they've killed Thor and have Mjolnir to prove it.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Players who chump out Gravitar are not going to enjoy playing at any conventions' date=' and will probably have a tough time with any GMs not from that initial group. Gravitar should be a pants-filler, and any encounters with her should demand retellings that would take hours. It whiffs slightly of D&D players who say that they've killed Thor and have Mjolnir to prove it.[/quote'] No, not really. Gravitar has no exotic defenses. A team of superheroes with a slightly higher than normal blend of exotic attacks are going to cause her problems - and let's remember we're talking about a team of superheroes against one villain.

 

6 PCs averaging 5 Speed have up to 30 actions a turn.

[casualplayer]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

No' date=' not really. Gravitar has no exotic defenses. A team of superheroes with a slightly higher than normal blend of exotic attacks are going to cause her problems - and let's remember we're talking about a [b']team[/b] of superheroes against one villain.

 

6 PCs averaging 5 Speed have up to 30 actions a turn.

 

30 actions that will be handily used up saving the civilians and putting buildings back on their foundations when Gravitar launches her god awful city smashing attack, something I have noticed as absent in these scenarios.