Building the Animated Justice League

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

NCM is not the max of human potential' date=' never was ment to be, it is the point of diminishing gains, and that is as written,[/quote']

 

Yep.

 

30 is the closest thing to a 'max of human potential' for most* characteristics (* besides INT).

[assault]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

Stat inflation is a myth

 

Well, actually that is true. The benchmarks for what is "normal" were set in games like Espionage, after Champions was published and its benchmarks were established.

 

By those retrospective standards, the stats for Champions characters were inflated.

 

It should be noted, however, that those early stats are broadly compatible with those of most Standard Superheroic level characters these days. The inflation hasn't really worsened over time.

[JmOz]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

Well' date=' actually that is true. The benchmarks for what is "normal" were set in games like [i']Espionage[/i], after Champions was published and its benchmarks were established.

 

By those retrospective standards, the stats for Champions characters were inflated.

 

It should be noted, however, that those early stats are broadly compatible with those of most Standard Superheroic level characters these days. The inflation hasn't really worsened over time.

 

Thank you for expanding on that for me, I was on my way out the door when I posted it.

 

I would still not use the word inflated, but rather scale. The default is a campaign where Supers are legendary in capability, well beyond that of normal men, even for the non powered crowd. Nothing wrong with a more down to earth approach, but not really inflated either.

[JmOz]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

What intrigues me is just how many of the characters in the DC universe, unlike Marvel, are truly 'supernormals' no mutant powers, no Magic, no alien tech, just their own wits and skills:

 

Batman (I disagree with ANY writeup that gives Bats any stats over 20)

Huntress

Question

Green Arrow

Vigilante

Wildcat

 

and arguably

Shining Knight

Star Girl

S.T.R.I.P.E.

 

And yet, DC Comics is considered the "Overpower" group while Marvel is the more "real". I always felt that DC had the more on both sides of the extreme with fewer mid grades, while Marvel had more midgrades. Or put another way DC had a larger spread

[John Desmarais]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

What Do You Want Me To Do Write Up The Whole Dcua?

 

Well, since you asked...

[name_tamer]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

What intrigues me is just how many of the characters in the DC universe, unlike Marvel, are truly 'supernormals' no mutant powers, no Magic, no alien tech, just their own wits and skills:

 

I agree, but it's not quite as one-sided as you portray:

 

Batman

Huntress

Question

Green Arrow

Vigilante

Wildcat

Shining Knight

Star Girl

S.T.R.I.P.E.

 

Captain America

Mockingbird

?

Hawkeye

Punisher

?

Black Knight

? - technically, she does use pretty outlandish tech

Iron Man

 

Also:

Black Widow

Nick Fury

 

Close but not quite making the criteria:

Black Cat

Black Panther

Moon Knight

Iron Fist

 

Of course, it would be very easy to add to the DC side as well...

[ScrewySquirrel]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

This is one of our most done to death subjects, incidentally.

 

Basically, there is a long history of characteristic inflation in Champions. Batman's characteristics need to rate him correctly relative to other characters, and allow him to behave in the way he does in the source material.

 

Of course, then you have to choose which source material you are using! (My personal benchmark tends to be early Silver Age, since it was an interesting period, and lots of stuff is available in cheap reprint editions.)

 

If you do go with "no stats over 20", then you need to make sure that all the other characters are built such that they don't have higher stats that aren't justified. After all, Bats is faster, smarter and stronger than most "superhumans", apart from those that specifically have super-speed, super-intelligence and super-strength.

 

Personally, I don't bother with this limit, and actually prohibit the Normal Character Maxima disadvantage in order to discourage this kind of argument.

 

Characters should have what they need to function as they should in the particular campaign they are in. The 20 limit might work in some cases, but is inadequate in others.

 

IMHO this is nonsense:

Batman has 20 STR, 20 DEX, 20 BODY, 20 CON, 20 INT, 20 EGO, 20 PRE, and 20 COM. he's got NCM, but *everything* is a 20, his SPD is 4, his PD/ED is 8, his STUN and END are 40, and he has an 8 REC -- max normal human stats.

 

He has martial arts, Lightning Reflexes, MANY DCs and MANY overall skill levels

 

How many DC does he have? Enough to being him to do superhuman damage levels (probly 5 DCs for a standard 8-12d6 campaign)

 

He has maybe 10 overall levels (allowing him to push to DCV 21 on a full dodge) this also allows him to put +10 into any one skill he's working at that moment.

 

Batman is probably a 450-500 point character. The mistake is thinking that just because he's got normal Maxima that he's somehow less capable or built on fewer points. He's NOT. In the DC animate Universe, Batman was *FIRST* operating for nearly a decade before Superman started (BTS starts in 1992, with flashbacks to 1987), he's got 10 years experience on Superman.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

... 20 STR' date=' 20 DEX, 20 BODY, 20 CON, 20 INT, 20 EGO, 20 PRE, and 20 COM. he's got NCM, but *everything* is a 20, his SPD is 4, his PD/ED is 8, his STUN and END are 40, and he has an 8 REC -- [b']max normal human stats[/b].

 

Can you provide a page reference that indicates that 20 is the 'max normal human stats'?

[ScrewySquirrel]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

Can you provide a page reference that indicates that 20 is the 'max normal human stats'?

 

by the name of the limitation.

Normal Maxima.

[JmOz]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

by the name of the limitation.

Normal Maxima.

 

But not by the text of said limitation

 

 

Characters subject to Normal Characteristic Maxima must pay double to buy characteristics higher than Maximum Value

 

 

so the issue is not wether or not Batman should be able to buy stats but rather the cost of doing so. Then we get into an issue on something I like calling Fairness vs Concept, should a concept have to spend more points that another concept for the same gains. Trust me there are hundreds of threads on this, and the fact is no one will ever agree with it

[JmOz]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

IMHO this is nonsense:

Batman has 20 STR, 20 DEX, 20 BODY, 20 CON, 20 INT, 20 EGO, 20 PRE, and 20 COM. he's got NCM, but *everything* is a 20, his SPD is 4, his PD/ED is 8, his STUN and END are 40, and he has an 8 REC -- max normal human stats.

 

He has martial arts, Lightning Reflexes, MANY DCs and MANY overall skill levels

 

How many DC does he have? Enough to being him to do superhuman damage levels (probly 5 DCs for a standard 8-12d6 campaign)

 

He has maybe 10 overall levels (allowing him to push to DCV 21 on a full dodge) this also allows him to put +10 into any one skill he's working at that moment.

 

Batman is probably a 450-500 point character. The mistake is thinking that just because he's got normal Maxima that he's somehow less capable or built on fewer points. He's NOT. In the DC animate Universe, Batman was *FIRST* operating for nearly a decade before Superman started (BTS starts in 1992, with flashbacks to 1987), he's got 10 years experience on Superman.

 

 

It's not wether or not he is built on fewer points, but on rather he has spent more points on getting to the same end

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

by the name of the limitation.

Normal Maxima.

 

Batman is not 'Normal'. He is extremely dedicated to being the best that he can be. He is for all practical purposes the textbook example of a character with the motivation and means to exceed the normal range of physical and mental capabilities of most if not all of his fellow humans.

[Kenn]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

Still won't convince me he can lift more than, say, 1000 lbs. (21 STR).

 

Now can someone show me how to write-up a dead horse, seeing how we're prone to start beating on it?

[assault]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

Still won't convince me he can lift more than' date=' say, 1000 lbs. (21 STR).[/quote']

 

STR is pretty much the only characteristic we have an objective measure for, and even it is a bit slippery.

 

I personally wouldn't give him more than 20 STR, but I wouldn't be offended if someone gave him 25.

[JmOz]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

STR is pretty much the only characteristic we have an objective measure for, and even it is a bit slippery.

 

I personally wouldn't give him more than 20 STR, but I wouldn't be offended if someone gave him 25.

 

And also, it is probably his second lowest (after body)

 

His INT, EGO, PRE espesialy would be through the roof, much higher than the 20 limit...

[assault]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

And also' date=' it is probably his second lowest (after body)[/quote']

 

And COM.

 

Actually, these days I tend to buy as much body as possible for Batman-like characters. It's part of my preferred Combat Luck+Damage Reduction technique for modelling characters that aren't bulletproof. They tend to take body relatively often.

 

His INT, EGO, PRE espesialy would be through the roof, much higher than the 20 limit...

 

In his higher powered versions, anyway. Like most characters, you need to define the source material you are working with.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

And also, it is probably his second lowest (after body)

 

His INT, EGO, PRE espesialy would be through the roof, much higher than the 20 limit...

 

Well, the one piece of evidence that comes to mind for higher than NCM stats is his fights with thugs. Your typical grunt will have a 2 SPD, possibly 3 (for better than average thugs). Batman acts more than twice as often as your typical thug, often with separate attacks that can't be classified as sweeps. I'd put him at a 5 to 6 SPD.

[JmOz]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

my bats (animated) would have

 

Str 20, dex 23, Con 25, Body 17, Int 28, Ego 18, PER 25 (+10 for costume), Com 16, PD/ED 7+3 (Combat luck) +5 (Costume), speed 5

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

bump....

[JmOz]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

This is a great thread, when I have time I will probably update the big 7 (Supes physical stats should be lower when he is effected by Kryptonite for example)

[Cassandra]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

Here is my take on the Justice League. I just added Hawkgirl specifically for this thread.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1703536&postcount=2

 

 

Most of the members are DEX 18, SPD 4, and have PD 16/8r, ED 14/8r. I've used the Silver Age original characters but they can easily be adapted to the Justice League TV show characters.

 

 

Superman's superspeed is covered by his Flight (Variable Advantages with Megascale, Reduced END, and Usable Underwater Only). He is the strongest of the league with STR 60, and the highest PD at 24/12r. His EC is 16/8r, which means energy blast to affect him more. I gave him the ability to survive unaided in space for up to 50 Minutes (Extended Breathing 1 END/Minute). His Heat Vision and Cold Breath are covered with a EB 8d6 Variable Special Effects (Heat/Cold) and Variable Limitations (Beam Attack and No Knockback for Heat, and Must Spread Attack and Not in a Vacuum for Cold). His limitations are based on his origin, with Green Kryptonite or Red Solar Radiation removing his EB, Flight, and reducing his STR to 30. I know that's on the high side, but my reasoning is that part of his strength comes from Earth having lower gravity then Krypton, and his true Super STR coming from Yellow Sun Energy.

 

Batman has his utility belt with weapons (Batarangs, Smoke Grenades, Bolas, Sleep Gas), and modes of Transportation (Batmobile, Batplane, Batboat, and Batline). The rational is that he keeps his remote controls for each vehicle in the belt. For the most part they're used for Transportations. His Skills including Martial Arts, Interrogation, Bugging, and he's the only one with Lightning Reflexes so he moves before anyone except Flash or Wonder Woman. He has STR 20, DEX 20

 

Wonder Woman has STR 50, DEX 18 EGO 18 PD/ED 10. Her bracelets are an Armor +10 rPD/rED DEX +5 (NFC) Nonpersistent, Restrainable, OIF. I know that Wonder Woman is the reason Missile Deflection is in Champions in the first place, but my reasoning is that we've seen her use her bracelets not just for bullets and ranged attacks, but in hand to hand combat, and offensively as part of her Amazon training. She's immortal, and is not bothered by high pressure, intense cold/heat, and can old her breath for about ten minutes. Note that her bracelets are her only resistent defense.

 

Flash has STR 20 DEX 23 SPD 6. He has a multipower for all his speed tricks (Vibration EB, HA for Speed Punching, Desolid, Extra-Dimensional Movement. His EC contains a Flight Only in Contact with a Surface and Variable Advantages (Megascale and Reduced END Only) and Force Field which simulates avoiding attacks.

 

Green Lantern has STR 20 DEX 20 EGO 14 PD 8 ED 6. All his Powers come from his OIF Power Ring. I've given him Flight with Variable Advantages (Megascale, Reduced END, or Usable Underwater Only) and Persistend No END Force Field 8 rPD/rED. His Multipower has EB, Entangle, Force Wall, and Telekinesis. He also has FTL Movement and LS that allows him and 8 others to survive in Space or other hostile environments.

 

Aquaman has STR 30 DEX 20 EGO 14. His sea creature control powers are now a standard multipower he can only use at Sea, with [16c] (the Sea Creatures in the area he can summon), which are OIF. He can use them as Indirect attacks from any direction. Other then that he's a low level Brick with a HA +4d6 (personal fighting style) with underwater movement and LS. (He was an original member, and the eighth member in the "Hereafter" episode.)

 

Martian Manhunter has STR 30 DEX 18 CON 18 PD 8 ED 6. He has +25 STR (55 Total) from his multipower, which also has shape changing, invisibility, desolid, and 2" stretching. He also has Armor +8 rPD +8 rED, and Variable Advantages Flight. He loses his Armor, Flight, and Multipower when Surrounded by Fire (-1/4) as I thought just being in the presence of fire as a weakness was silly. He's more Silver Age then Justice League, but simulates the powers well.

 

Hawkgirl has STR 30, DEX 20. She's simular to Batman without the resources, gadgets or vehicles. She has Armor +5 rPD/rED and HA +2d6 from her mace. Hawkgirl is basically a flying Martial Artist.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

This is a great thread' date=' when I have time I will probably update the big 7 (Supes physical stats should be lower when he is effected by Kryptonite for example)[/quote']

 

 

Just seeing the html attachments updated to board friendly versions would make me very happy.

[Cassandra]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

I've always preferred building lower powered characters (250 Points or less) because I like the challenge of bringing my favorite comic book heroes to life on a budget.

 

For characters like Batman, Black Widow, Captain America, etc, I use the Normal Characteristics Maxima as a baseline for their characteristics. Most of their combat ability comes through training (Martial Arts) and weapons (Utility Belt, Wrist Blasters, Shield). In a stand up right none can survive against Superman or Wonder Woman, but they can use their skills to outmanuever their opponents and avoid damage while striking. It's up to the player to use what he's got to win.

 

Superpowered characters have raw force, and unusual powers but they need to know how to use them. Almost all have one weakness to exploit. How long would Superman last if Batman gets him in Kryptonite laced Batbolas for example.

 

Recenty I built Hawkgirl with STR 30 to reflect her Thanagarian nature. I took the extra cost for the STR so I could have the NCM disadvantage because he's basically human, just with enhanced STR. Now if you combine her mace and her martial arts offensive strike she can roll 12d6, the same as Superman's. Now while Superman can take more hits like that, he can also grab her and take Hawkgirl into the upper atmosphere or into a convient body of water and hold her until she can't breathe. That is unless she dodges his grab and sets him up for another martial strike . . .

 

My point is know your character, know your opponent, and win.

[JmOz]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

Thread necromancy, I Know.

 

Getting ready for 6th edition, first thing I will be doing is converting the animated JLA, and to do it right (and as an excuse to watch them again =) ) I am going to be taking some notes and leaving them here

 

Secret Origins: JLA Season 1, episodes 1-3,

All Present

 

Superman

• Flight
  
• Superstrength (Ss)
  
• SS: smashes open a 18" metal door, uses multiple punches
  
• SS: Lifts small tank
  
• Heat Vision used to weld back together batplane
  

 

 

Batman

• See equipment list
  
• Detective
  
• Martial Artist
  
• Skilled Pilot
  
• Extremly Rich (Watchtower is a line item in the R&D section maybe a joke?)
  

 

Wonder Woman

• Missile Deflection/Reflection
  
• Flight
  
• Super Strength (able to stop mother ship from flying away)
  
• Very Long reach w/lasso
  

 

Green Lantern (all powers are assumed by ring)

• telekinesis to Lift batplane
  
• Force Wall
  
• RKA
  
• FF?
  

 

Flash

• Super Running
  
• Runs on water
  
• Air blasts used to dispell gas
  
• Runs up a wall
  

 

Hawkgirl

• Winged Flight
  
• Mace Extreme damage (smashes martian ships in single strike, damages mother ship)
  

 

Martian Manhunter

• Telepathy
  
• Change forms (Humanoid to humanoid)
  
• Desolid
  
• LS: Immune to aging, still needs to sleep
  
• "the vision Trick" NND Attack
  
• Mind Scan
  
• "Mental Shield" used to hide batman from detection
  

 

In Blackest Night: JLA Season 1, episodes 4-5

Batman and Wonder Woman do not appear in these episodes

 

Superman

• Basic Piloting
  
• Heat Vision
  
• Breath puts out a fire
  

 

Green Lantern (all powers are assumed by ring)

• Member of the GLC
  
• TK stops midsized sedan
  
• Instant Change
  
• RKA
  
• TK used to pull out engine
  
• FTL Flight
  
• make ring fly to finger
  
• Summon space bubble (Fw/Safe enviroment?)
  
• Ring is powered by Main Battery, Main battery can effect ring power
  

 

Flash

• Overall Penalty Skill levels vs time (super speed based)
  

 

Hawkgirl

• Tough, KB through two walls and gets up easily
  
• MA, brawler style
  
• Minor Super Strength (Throws a GL through a wall w/o mace)
  

 

Martian Manhunter

• Telepathy is galactic scale
  
• Astrogation
  
• Super Strength
  

 

Watchtower

• Space Station
  
• Detect things entering atmosphere
  

 

Javilin

• Space craft
  
• FTL
  
• Boost earplugs?
  

 

JLA Equipment

• IIF Comm system (Earplug)
  
• Space Suits (LS safe in vacuumm, breath in vacuum)
  

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Building the Animated Justice League

 

Still won't convince me he can lift more than, say, 1000 lbs. (21 STR).

 

Now can someone show me how to write-up a dead horse, seeing how we're prone to start beating on it?

 

Now to beat the dead horse some more. Personally can't convince me he has even a 20 STR. Really it all depends on your campaign scale. Mine is closer to Cassandra's but different higher level approaches are just as valid. My homage in my game exceeds 20 in IN. EGO and PRE but nothing else and not even 20 s in everything else except DEX.. Works in my campaign but would be completely pathetic in Enforcer's.