Worst comic book superfight ever

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As an aside, I was explaining the Spiderman-Firelord fight to my wife, who even managed to learn and repeat (not that I asked her, either) the whole Firelord-Thor-Hulk-Rhino-Spiderman chain!

 

She said, "If only you guys [or she may have said "geeks"] would use your powers for good."

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As an aside, I was explaining the Spiderman-Firelord fight to my wife, who even managed to learn and repeat (not that I asked her, either) the whole Firelord-Thor-Hulk-Rhino-Spiderman chain!

 

She said, "If only you guys [or she may have said "geeks"] would use your powers for good."

 

I can only hope you included the -Frogman-Aunt May part of it.

[OddHat]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Re Superman and Power Defense: I believe Superman has very little PowD for a super. He seems to be susceptible to "strange" drain rays and so on, from my memory of even Silver Age Superman. It seems many of Luthor's more esoteric attacks, in any of the older comics back when I was reading them, tended to affect Superman to one degree or another of serious magnitude.

 

Which, in HERO terms, is probably the best explanation, really. His PD/ED isn't a problem versus magic that manifests as pure physical force, but anything that's against PowDef he's a bit nerfed on compared to many other supers (who, of course, lack his many other super-abilities).

 

Yup. It's not even "very little". He has no Power Def and no Mental Def. You can Drain, Transform, Mind Control and Mental Illusion him all day. He does have a strong will ("Super Willpower" in the Silver Age), so his breakout rolls are fairly good, but he's at a severe disadvantage when facing magicians and psychics.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yup. It's not even "very little". He has no Power Def and no Mental Def. You can Drain' date=' Transform, Mind Control and Mental Illusion him all day. He does have a strong will ("Super Willpower" in the Silver Age), so his breakout rolls are fairly good, but he's at a severe disadvantage when facing magicians and psychics.[/quote']

I kind of go with 0, but figured I'd be charitable.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I can only hope you included the -Frogman-Aunt May part of it.

Heh, no, forgot that. I mean, hey, there were only over 100 pages of material to filter!

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Re Superman and Power Defense: I believe Superman has very little PowD for a super. He seems to be susceptible to "strange" drain rays and so on, from my memory of even Silver Age Superman. It seems many of Luthor's more esoteric attacks, in any of the older comics back when I was reading them, tended to affect Superman to one degree or another of serious magnitude.

 

Which, in HERO terms, is probably the best explanation, really. His PD/ED isn't a problem versus magic that manifests as pure physical force, but anything that's against PowDef he's a bit nerfed on compared to many other supers (who, of course, lack his many other super-abilities).

The Mort Weisinger Superman had the same Power Defense as he had PD and ED, namely virtually infinite. It's just that his Power Defense was Not vs. Magic. I'd call him the Silver Age Superman.

Julius Schwartz scaled his PD and ED back to merely ridiculous, and removed the Power Defense against all but the most mundane effects. I consider that Superman (ca. 1971-1980) to be Bronze Age. He's also the guy that got me into superhero comics, for what it's worth.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The Mort Weisinger Superman had the same Power Defense as he had PD and ED, namely virtually infinite. It's just that his Power Defense was Not vs. Magic. I'd call him the Silver Age Superman.

Julius Schwartz scaled his PD and ED back to merely ridiculous, and removed the Power Defense against all but the most mundane effects. I consider that Superman (ca. 1971-1980) to be Bronze Age. He's also the guy that got me into superhero comics, for what it's worth.

Thanks, okay.

[Mike W]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

NO ONE has yet mentioned Spiderman vs Firelord?

 

I will remember that steaming pile of elephant dung on my death bed!

 

Acutally, I liked that one.

 

I think the entire "Death of Superman" storyline/fight was horribly written.

 

I guess that one wins, mostly for notoriety but god there have been a lot of bad ones over the years.

[Pentoth]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The worst fight IMO was when Wolverine defeated Lobo. Even the Marvel writers were like. "How the hell are we gonna do this?" Hence the whole thing behind the bar off camera. I especially liked later on when Lobo said he was paid to throw it so it could explained somehow.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I especially liked later on when Lobo said he was paid to throw it so it could explained somehow.

 

Really? In what book did he say that?

[radioKAOS]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think this thread is the worst superfight ever!

 

Now if only it were in a comic book!

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Page 2.

 

 

I guess it's done.

[Pentoth]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Really? In what book did he say that?

 

I can't remember one of my friends who is a huge Lobo fan told me about it. They put that in because to Marvel and DC writers it was the only thing that made sense.

[Vigil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

One thing that may be helpful...and I don't know if this has been mentioned yet...is to think of each punch/blow/exchange in a fight as representing not strictly that action but a TURN worth of actions. In other words that single panel...which compresses or expands time...represents the general action or the highlight of the action taking place during that period. Remember in NA comics, up until recently, paneling and action were thought of as being scene to scen not moment to moment to moment. So we may see the result of an action, as we often do in the multitudinous Thing vs Hulk fights but we don't see all of the set up that got to that point. That may have to be implied. That's how Kirby, etc established the action in Marvel so I think the point may have some merit, if not necessarily usefulness. So, in the Spidey vs Firelord fight, if you count up all the frames of action and assume each to be a turn then you may have a general idea of how long the fight lasted in Champs terms.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And you have evidence for this?? Any??

[Vigil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Evidence? It's simply the convention of the NA comic book industry to not belabor every moment of an action sequence or fight. Instead you focus on the big moments. There's an innate compression of action in NA comics up until the last 8 years or so, when the Japanese moment by moment style began to become more popular and pervasive. For instance. take FF 242 where Terrax hammers Ben Grimm from the roof of the Baxter Building down through the structure of the entire building and into or even through the sub basement itself...far enough that Sue remarks that "he's gone", completely lost from sght. So let's assume 38+ stories distance between them. The Johnny attacks and is rebuffed. the Reed attacks and rebuffed. Then BEN taps Terrax on the shoulder and haymakers him through at least 2 neighbouring buildings before he vanishes from sight. Now the above actions, in their entirety took place in 7 panels. That's it! There has to be compression for the simple reason that Ben doesn't move fast enough to somehow scale 38-40 stories of distance in, what?, 2 to 4 phases max (and that's absolute max) if you literally assume that every panel is one phase? I think the evidence is overwhelming that comic fights are greatly compressed at certain points and maybe greatly expanded at others (like in certain Flash-type sequences). It's all about showing the BIG moments in a fight..not the nit-picky little ones in between.

 

Vigil

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think a solid reading of Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics would be of interest to any and all who haven't yet read it.

 

He doesn't discuss any specific convention as to time passage in panels (I don't think there is one as to the relatively extreme positions of ChuckG or Virgil) but he discusses techniques and implications.

 

I think the important point is that it depends on the artist and can be often discerned accordingly. ChuckG's literalism at times may apply, and Virgil's 'hard abstraction" as it were may at times.

 

In fact, now that I think of it, I think Scott McCloud's DESTROY! (is that two exclamation points? ) is a good example of literal coverage of a battle. And by the way certainly is one of comics' best superfights, ever.

[Vigil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Understanding comics is exactly the text to which I was referring. In it, SM makes the distinction between Japanese pacing and NA. As I said, until relatively recently NA comics were all about showing the big moments of a battle or an action. It was about scenes, not sequences with panels being the big or important moments of a scene...which is why we don't see Ben Grimm trudging up 40 flights of stairs to get back into the battle. That's what I was talking about when I was making the point about compression or expansion of time. Good to see you picked up on the reference.

 

 

Vigil

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Understanding comics is exactly the text to which I was referring. In it, SM makes the distinction between Japanese pacing and NA. As I said, until relatively recently NA comics were all about showing the big moments of a battle or an action. It was about scenes, not sequences with panels being the big or important moments of a scene...which is why we don't see Ben Grimm trudging up 40 flights of stairs to get back into the battle. That's what I was talking about when I was making the point about compression or expansion of time. Good to see you picked up on the reference.

 

 

Vigil

Yeah, but don't you think you're being a bit reaching in ascribing that as a specific convention abided by Marvel/DC artists as opposed to something that's generally true? I think it's a lot looser, is all I'm saying, and not just since the increasing fusion of Eastern art.

 

(edited to clarify my first sentence)

 

(Also, should add, I appreciate your addition to the conversation)

[Vigil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think it is, more or less, a convention springing from a very real constraint...there are only so many panels and so many pages in an issue. Before our current era of storytelling so hyper-decompressed that you get the bends just reading JMS each panel counted and you had to try and maximize story and action content. So, you put the big important moments in and moved the story along on those important actions while leaving out a lot of what would be considered "character" points (as opposed to plot points) now.

 

Things have changed considerably in recent years. Consider one of my faves, JMS, in one of my least favorite books, Supreme Powers. Incidentally, it's being cancelled. Why? Maybe because he took 21 or 22 issues and didn't even get around to assembline the team! In most Bronze Age books what he took 22 issues to do would have been done in a couple of pages or an issue tops. From there you would expand the backstory when and where you could (maybe even in a one-shot or a mini-series if it was a big deal) but there was a lot more emphasis placed on economy of storytelling and getting to the point! That's something that's more or less lost these days and I think one of the main reasons why the industry continues to implode. There's way too many pages and issue where way too little happens and all the glossy coloring and technically superb art in the world can't hide it. I think, by and large, its a sign of lazy and self-indulgent storytelling and of writers not trying hard enough to tell the story straight. I could blame Vertigo...it's tempting...but I'll restrain myself, lol.

 

Vigil

[Vigil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

O h yeah, and I find it very pleasant also to discuss some of the theory of why stuff happens as opposed to the stuff itself. Thanks for your reply, Z.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think it is, more or less, a convention springing from a very real constraint...there are only so many panels and so many pages in an issue. Before our current era of storytelling so hyper-decompressed that you get the bends just reading JMS each panel counted and you had to try and maximize story and action content. So, you put the big important moments in and moved the story along on those important actions while leaving out a lot of what would be considered "character" points (as opposed to plot points) now.

 

Things have changed considerably in recent years. Consider one of my faves, JMS, in one of my least favorite books, Supreme Powers. Incidentally, it's being cancelled. Why? Maybe because he took 21 or 22 issues and didn't even get around to assembline the team! In most Bronze Age books what he took 22 issues to do would have been done in a couple of pages or an issue tops. From there you would expand the backstory when and where you could (maybe even in a one-shot or a mini-series if it was a big deal) but there was a lot more emphasis placed on economy of storytelling and getting to the point! That's something that's more or less lost these days and I think one of the main reasons why the industry continues to implode. There's way too many pages and issue where way too little happens and all the glossy coloring and technically superb art in the world can't hide it. I think, by and large, its a sign of lazy and self-indulgent storytelling and of writers not trying hard enough to tell the story straight. I could blame Vertigo...it's tempting...but I'll restrain myself, lol.

 

Vigil

I don't basically disagree with you, just want to be careful in ascribing a generalized convention to each specific artist, that's all.

 

I like JMS also, he generally has bad luck in the impatient world of comics.

[Vigil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I agree and it makes me crazy. I think JMS may be the best pure writer in the business and he's certainly a brilliant plotter so I'm not sure why he got stuck navel gazing endlessly in Supreme Powers. His work on Spidey is good and solid if not brilliant but it just seems that he can't quite capture the genius of Babylon 5 in comics. I'm not sure why that is.

 

As to the idea of a convention, I think it may have more or less become one by default if not by editorial fiat. You see, I can think of dozens of examples of compressed storytelling and action...all my favorite books feature it but it is less common now that stories are as driven by characterization as action, if not more so. The trick comes in making character development and internal conflict as exciting as external conflict and few do that very well. As in all things, I will say that in this regard Alan Moore is still the pre-eminent genius.

 

 

Vigil

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I agree and it makes me crazy. I think JMS may be the best pure writer in the business and he's certainly a brilliant plotter so I'm not sure why he got stuck navel gazing endlessly in Supreme Powers. His work on Spidey is good and solid if not brilliant but it just seems that he can't quite capture the genius of Babylon 5 in comics. I'm not sure why that is.

 

As to the idea of a convention, I think it may have more or less become one by default if not by editorial fiat. You see, I can think of dozens of examples of compressed storytelling and action...all my favorite books feature it but it is less common now that stories are as driven by characterization as action, if not more so. The trick comes in making character development and internal conflict as exciting as external conflict and few do that very well. As in all things, I will say that in this regard Alan Moore is still the pre-eminent genius.

 

 

Vigil

To play devil's advocate, I think there are many mainstream comic battles from the 60s and 70s where it is implied we're seeing all the action - but definitely less epic stuff. I agree with you re the normal "big battles" or similar, but I think there's plenty where the artists tried to convey the blows. But in general, yeah.

[Vigil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Of course, and I agree. Much of it, of ourse depended on the style of the writer or artist and what they felt was important to show. I think that maybe titles like Iron Fist tried to be explicit with all of the action. Teen Titans maybe, too.

 

Another device which was used more frequently back then, and is less so now, is the use of narrative captions to tie battle scenes or sequences. Just now I was looking at the classic Defenders #10 with what may well be the all-time greatest Thor vs Hulk fight ever. It's interesting to reread it, now, as so many of the big moments in the battle are conveyed through narrative captions as much as action. I'm thinking, specifically, of the ultimate moment when Thor and the Hulk grapple and it says in the narrative, essentially, that "the two titans lock into an unmoving sculpture of bridled force" and that they subsequently grapple, motionlessly, for over an hour with neither relenting until they are split apart by the arrival of their teams. It's visually very simple but accompanied by the powerful, compressed narrative it becomes one of the best fight sequences ever.

 

Vigil