No Range + AE

[Super Squirrel]

Lets say you have an Area of Effect attack with No Range. To hit the hex you are attacking a 0 DCV. What exactly happens if you miss this attack roll?

[mikesama]

Re: No Range + AE

 

Me I'd just handwave it and say you always hit your own hex.

[Sean Waters]

Re: No Range + AE

 

This is one of those syergy questions: the combination of AoE and No Range is more effective than the points suggest, as you are getting, in effect, perfect aim.

 

Well technically you still need to roll to hit the hex you are in. Obviously as it is the ONLY hex you can hit, as you have no range, this is a bit silly: even if you 'miss' you can't really hit another hex - that would be giving the power range. If it made any difference I'd say that you CAN miss but that there is zero scatter: i.e. the maximum distance the effect can fall from ground zero is 0". I can only see this mattering if something gives your no range power 'range'. Unlikely

 

It is important to remember though that you ARE still rolling to hit even if you can't technically miss, as the attack action ends your phase.

[Edsel]

Re: No Range + AE

 

Actually a No Range power can target your own hex or any adjacent hex. The description in 5ER reads:

This -½ Limitation represents a Ranged power that doesn’t work at Range. The character can only use the power at HTH Combat range.

HTH range is your own hex or an adjacent one, unless you are very small, very large or have some stretching.

[KA.]

Re: No Range + AE

 

And so, taking Edsel's point to its logical conclusion, a No Range AOE Attack that misses, will end up being centered on a randomly chosen adjacent hex.

 

Not a problem, unless you have friendly characters within the new Area.

 

Or unless you bought a 1 Hex 'Hole in the Middle', instead of Personal Immunity.

 

KA.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: No Range + AE

 

And so, taking Edsel's point to its logical conclusion, a No Range AOE Attack that misses, will end up being centered on a randomly chosen adjacent hex.

 

Not a problem, unless you have friendly characters within the new Area.

 

Or unless you bought a 1 Hex 'Hole in the Middle', instead of Personal Immunity.

 

KA.

 

This is the way I've always run it. However, according to the description of the Area Of Effect Advantage on 5E p. 159/ 5ER p. 248, AOE Powers with No Range always center at the character using the Power.

[Edsel]

Re: No Range + AE

 

I recall seeing a write-up somewhere of a hand to hand attack bought as a one-hex AE. It was then explained in the description of the attack that this allowed the user to attack all enemies in any adjacent hexes. I seem to recall seeing this in the UMA but it may have been the 4th Edition version.

[incrdbil]

Re: No Range + AE

 

Lets say you have an Area of Effect attack with No Range. To hit the hex you are attacking a 0 DCV. What exactly happens if you miss this attack roll?

 

Depending on my cruelty....there's the old Barney Fife factor. You got the power off, but only managed to shoot yourself in the foot. Ouch. No damage or effect done, just the visible effects of trying to use the power, end expenditures or charges, your teamamtes just make you put your bullets/whatever in your pocket. Your item was a dud. Your fireball flamed out.

 

Simply ruled --you blew the attack roll, and for one reason or another it fizzled and didn't go off the way you wanted, its just like any other miss. No automatic hits. I might allow some effects on the hex given sufficient fx, but nothing in the way the character wanted or to his benefit, a miss is still a miss. I'd be far more moved just to make up a reason why the power fizzled to no appreciable effect.

[austenandrews]

Re: No Range + AE

 

Depends on the SFX. If we're talking about an Exploding Head Ninja, who always detonate in their own hex, a To-Hit roll is meaningless. If we're talking about an Exploding Fist Pirate, who have one heck of an uppercut, I might say roll for a chance to hit the wrong (adjacent) hex.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: No Range + AE

 

In this particular case, I was working on a sort of Earthquake attack. The player strikes the ground and sends out a ripple that destroys solid structures within range. I was just curious what happened if the attack roll missed.

[KA.]

Re: No Range + AE

 

I asked Steve on the 5th Ed. Questions board, and he basically said that it just missed, as in malfunctioned.

 

So, in honor of the post above and the spirit of Barney Fife, in my campaigns from now on, any such attack hits the attacker in the foot.

 

"I do my Earthquake Punch, centered on my hex . . .

Crap, I rolled an 18!"

 

"You just punched yourself in the foot."

 

KA.

[Enforcer84]

Re: No Range + AE

 

I always forced the player to sponaneously combust.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: No Range + AE

 

I always forced the player to sponaneously combust.

 

 

Note to self: Cancel session for Enforcer's game...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: No Range + AE

 

If I'm remembering the 'drift' rules right, your attack will drift a maximum number of hexes equal to the amount you missed by, up to half the distance from you to the target hex, right?

 

So, by the complete letter of the rules, the most the attack can drift by is half of zero (since it's no range), or ... nowhere (insert Letter vs Spirit argument here).

 

I generally don't require attack rolls for No Range attacks for precisely this reason, though, of course, they do count as attacks, end your phase, etc.

[zornwil]

Re: No Range + AE

 

In this particular case' date=' I was working on a sort of Earthquake attack. The player strikes the ground and sends out a ripple that destroys solid structures within range. I was just curious what happened if the attack roll missed. [/quote']

Hmmm, at first I was thinking then a missed roll would mean his foot hit at the wrong angle and sends the ripple in an unintended direction or he biffs completely. But then if no matter what this is a flat circle of effect because of the presumption that regardless of angle the quake spirals outward circularly, only missing seems to make sense. Then again, thinking more about it, you could allow the AoE type to "mutate" if the roll is missed - this might be fun and "realistic" - so if he misses, instead of a circle it's a line or a cone in a random direction. That'll keep some teammates alert...but not screw his attack, either.

 

BTW, is he personally invulnerable or is this hole in the middle or does he just take it?

 

PS - on an 18, I'd probably have him trip with no attack going off at all. If his CVs are such he only misses on an 18, that's probably okay, too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Range + AE

 

Hmmm, at first I was thinking then a missed roll would mean his foot hit at the wrong angle and sends the ripple in an unintended direction or he biffs completely. But then if no matter what this is a flat circle of effect because of the presumption that regardless of angle the quake spirals outward circularly, only missing seems to make sense. Then again, thinking more about it, you could allow the AoE type to "mutate" if the roll is missed - this might be fun and "realistic" - so if he misses, instead of a circle it's a line or a cone in a random direction. That'll keep some teammates alert...but not screw his attack, either.

 

BTW, is he personally invulnerable or is this hole in the middle or does he just take it?

 

PS - on an 18, I'd probably have him trip with no attack going off at all. If his CVs are such he only misses on an 18, that's probably okay, too.

 

All I can think is "oh, you stepped in some gum (or some less appealing substancve) which ripples, bt doesn't go outwards. I'm inclined to go with "you missed; roll for direction of miss; it can only be within 1 hex since that's all you have in HTH range"). An adjacent hex is DCV 0 anyway, isn't it? Unless your OCV is under 6, you hit on all but an 18 anyway.

[zornwil]

Re: No Range + AE

 

All I can think is "oh' date=' you stepped in some gum (or some less appealing substancve) which ripples, bt doesn't go outwards. I'm inclined to go with "you missed; roll for direction of miss; it can only be within 1 hex since that's all you have in HTH range"). An adjacent hex is DCV 0 anyway, isn't it? Unless your OCV is under 6, you hit on all but an 18 anyway.[/quote']

I've known bricks with OCVs less than 6!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Range + AE

 

I've known bricks with OCVs less than 6!

 

Not impossible, just rare. Even Joe Normal hits on a 14-, so over 90% of the time.

[zornwil]

Re: No Range + AE

 

Not impossible' date=' just rare. Even Joe Normal hits on a 14-, so over 90% of the time.[/quote']

Oh, yes, granted, I was just making a comment is all. Of course it's more possible with modifiers to see situations where less than an 18 might fail, such as a brick doing a haymaker or someone impaired. So I could still imagine a GM drawing a distinction between a failure on an 18 and a failure on less than an 18.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: No Range + AE

 

Well... if it's a Cone, Line, or Any Area power, there's no problem. It scatters directionally. Oops - the line is now going in a different direction.

 

For Radius... c'mon, you _shouldn't_ be able to miss oen of those. It's "I pull the grenade pin", "I hit the ground underneath me".

 

If there ARE sufficient negative modifiers, why not just have the make a half move and hit the ground there? (Because if they're THAT disoriented, they're probably staggering around).

[zornwil]

Re: No Range + AE

 

Well... if it's a Cone, Line, or Any Area power, there's no problem. It scatters directionally. Oops - the line is now going in a different direction.

 

For Radius... c'mon, you _shouldn't_ be able to miss oen of those. It's "I pull the grenade pin", "I hit the ground underneath me".

 

If there ARE sufficient negative modifiers, why not just have the make a half move and hit the ground there? (Because if they're THAT disoriented, they're probably staggering around).

The only reason I mentioned the idea that the radius might mutate to a cone or line or such was that since the SFX centers around the character stomping, to me a miss would mean they hit the ground at the wrong angle - which could then cause the unpredictable radius.

 

I'm not saying it's "the" way, just an interpretation I might make.

[Dust Raven]

Re: No Range + AE

 

I typically rule that AE attacks targeting the attackers own hex never miss. If they target an adjacent hex, I allow it to drift up to one hex away (and only roll for hexes it could have drifted into, if it's no range, it can't drift further away). If it ends up drifting into the attacker's hex (and it makes a difference) I roll a die to determine if it's pointed up down or out in some direction.

 

I don't much care about Steve's ruling on "missing" with a No Range AE attack though. If I have a live grenade, pull the pin, and just don't throw it, it's not gonna have any chance at all of transforming into a dud just because I roll bad, nor is there any chance of missing. If the grenade happens to be strapped to my body as a suicide bomb and I'm not able to throw it, nothing changes.

[zornwil]

Re: No Range + AE

 

I typically rule that AE attacks targeting the attackers own hex never miss. If they target an adjacent hex, I allow it to drift up to one hex away (and only roll for hexes it could have drifted into, if it's no range, it can't drift further away). If it ends up drifting into the attacker's hex (and it makes a difference) I roll a die to determine if it's pointed up down or out in some direction.

 

I don't much care about Steve's ruling on "missing" with a No Range AE attack though. If I have a live grenade, pull the pin, and just don't throw it, it's not gonna have any chance at all of transforming into a dud just because I roll bad, nor is there any chance of missing. If the grenade happens to be strapped to my body as a suicide bomb and I'm not able to throw it, nothing changes.

I think this is where SFX matters. The grenade should go off, it makes no sense otherwise. The guy stomping on the ground, well, I can see him just stumbling (though personally I like making his radius change to a different shape, but that's me).

[Mentor]

Re: No Range + AE

 

I think this is where SFX matters. The grenade should go off' date=' it makes no sense otherwise. The guy stomping on the ground, well, I can see him just stumbling (though personally I like making his radius change to a different shape, but that's me).[/quote']

Yay!

 

Yes. Remember the SFX.

 

It sometimes makes me crazy when players or the GM in a game I'm in flip through the rules or start on their calculator working up per centages and angles trying to figure an effect and I want to scream, "It's a f@#king grenade, just represented by a rules construct. Run with it."

[Dust Raven]

Re: No Range + AE

 

SFX granting a little bit here, taking a little bit there is one thing. One Power not working even though the action was spent and the END used while an identical Power with a different SFX gets to work automatically without even a roll is another. If there's a chance that stomp will just flub, to me that's an Activation Roll. If it's represented by the Attack Roll and SFX, then the SFX had better compensate for it. Or, in the case of the grenade, since the SFX is allowing it to just go off, the SFX had better take something away from the Power to make up for it. Since I can't think of anything to take away from the grenade, I maintain that the stomp always works as well unless it has an Activation Roll.

 

I'm all for SFX and working with what the power really is, but I prefer to treat the mechanics fairly (or as fairly as possible).