The Invisible World

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Invisible World

 

While I understand your point' date=' to most people the two are synonymous. Champions is Hero and vice versa.[/quote']

While for some reason people on this board might tend to agree with that statement, don't bring it anywhere near the Star Hero board (you'd get spaced) or the Fantasy Hero board (you'd be burned at the stake).

 

Seriously, even if most or a lot of people tend to see it that way, a lot of us would like to change that, making Hero truly a universal system both in fact and in perception.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Invisible World

 

It depends.

 

Vampires, for example, are plainly visible if they do something vampiric; however, if people see a werewolf, they suffer from 'the Delirium' which puts some kind of Jungian memory traumatization into it where they either rationalize it away or simply forget. Mages suffer from Paradox, which is the effect of them attempting to violate consensual reality (the idea that reality is what it is solely because six billion 'mundanes' think that's how it should be, and their willpower comes crashing down on you when you decide that, actually, people *can* shoot lasers out of their eyes). I never played Changeling or Wraith, so can't comment on those.

 

For completeness' sake:

 

Wraith used exactly the same chart as Werewolf, but called it the Shroud, rather than the Delerium.

 

Changelings couldn't work their powers around people who weren't imaginative, and could actually take damage (after a fashion) from the truly banal.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Invisible World

 

On the topic of exactly replicating the WoD schemes, I would say it is something like so (for the, "basic five"):

• Mage, Vampire: Use a Social Limitation. Probably a more extreme one for vampires, as they can be destroyed out of hand for the slightest possibility of alerting the mortal world, whereas it is more a common sense thing for mages (and the goals of many are in fact to--eventually--make the Unawakened aware of the supernatural in one way or another so long as they can do it without getting burned, banished, or pacified by other mages).
  
• Werewolf, Wraith: Use a power (probably Mind Control with a variant of No Conscious Control and/or possibly a Change Environment) coupled with a minor (made less so by the power) Social Limitation.
  
• Changeling: Use a Physical Limitation that can be partially bought off as part of their, "powers." Poor bastards.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: The Invisible World

 

On the topic of exactly replicating the WoD schemes, I would say it is something like so (for the, "basic five"):

• Mage, Vampire: Use a Social Limitation. Probably a more extreme one for vampires, as they can be destroyed out of hand for the slightest possibility of alerting the mortal world, whereas it is more a common sense thing for mages (and the goals of many are in fact to--eventually--make the Unawakened aware of the supernatural in one way or another so long as they can do it without getting burned, banished, or pacified by other mages).
  

 
Neither Mages nor Kindred (Vampires) have any sort of invisibilitity to mundanes as a default. They both have powers they can utilize to create an invisibility effect. Mages have Arcane, the Mind Sphere, or the Energy Sphere. Vampires have the Obfuscate, Quietus, Chimerstry, and Thaumaturgy Disciplines.
 
Virtually every WoD supernatural needs a social limitation for alerting the public to them.
 

Werewolf, Wraith: Use a power (probably Mind Control with a variant of No Conscious Control and/or possibly a Change Environment) coupled with a minor (made less so by the power) Social Limitation.

 
This is better done as a physical limit on mortals. The Delerium is built into the people, not the werewolf.
 
Changeling: Use a Physical Limitation that can be partially bought off as part of their, "powers." Poor bastards.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Invisible World

 

But they are in the setting mechanically -- from the creation of the first version they are assumed. Everything else is a diversion from that norm. Since you are adding a new permutation and special effect you need a mechanical justification from that norm.

If the diversion is the norm for the Game being played then no System Mechanics need to be put in place at all.

 

Back on topic - I tihnk devlin1 got it - It's really a Psych Lim on all the normals: Can't see/believe in the Supernatural. The PCs, by virtue of being PCs have automatically bought this off (or quite possibly changed it out for another Psych Lim: "Can't Sleep Or Clowns Will Eat Me") and thus never have to see it.

 

Ergo, while it may need "mechanics" it never really enters into the game and might as well not be written out with mechanics at all.

[Lucius]

The Invisible World

 

While I understand your point' date=' to most people the two are synonymous. Champions is Hero and vice versa.[/quote']

 

No. It's not. Hero System is not just Champions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is thinking this is deja vu all over again.

[zornwil]

Re: The Invisible World

 

I agree with the school that this is the operating assumption and there's no need, typically, for a mechanical response.

 

However, if a mechanical handling is required for whatever reason (including, perhaps, that regardless of reality hitting someone in the face they simply "can't" acknowledge it aside from having a specific power/ability/skill), I'd personally just go with a form of Mental Awareness, called something like Supernatural Awareness or such.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Or Werecreatures and Wraiths could have:

Distinctive Features: Difficult to conceal, causes Extreme Reaction (refusal to accept existence), sensed by Limited Group (Mundanes).

 

Just a suggestion.

[Kristopher]

Re: The Invisible World

 

For Champions I think the mechanical aspect is critical. This is Champions after all...

 

 

Whereas the thing that bothers me most about the HERO system is that people get WAY too caught up in the mechanical aspects of it.

[keithcurtis]

Re: The Invisible World

 

If there's a real need to play out the mechanics of it, I'd make it a zero-point physical or pschological limitation that every one has. They can buy it off for 0 points with GM permission.

I think it needs no further mechanic. There are somethings I just would never write up. A toaster uses Transform:Bread to Toast, Extra Time. It also can be a killing attack when dropped into a bathtub, +2 DC when swung like a club, and so forth. But I'd never make anyone buy Suppress:Transform to stop it from making toast.

 

Keith "I know, it's an OAF. But bear with the spirit of the metaphor" Curtis

[zornwil]

Re: The Invisible World

 

If there's a real need to play out the mechanics of it, I'd make it a zero-point physical or pschological limitation that every one has. They can buy it off for 0 points with GM permission.

I think it needs no further mechanic. There are somethings I just would never write up. A toaster uses Transform:Bread to Toast, Extra Time. It also can be a killing attack when dropped into a bathtub, +2 DC when swung like a club, and so forth. But I'd never make anyone buy Suppress:Transform to stop it from making toast.

 

Keith "I know, it's an OAF. But bear with the spirit of the metaphor" Curtis

+2 DC? What are you, insane? That's COMPLETELY ridiculous, in ASM #261 Spiderman grabs a toaster and...

 

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Invisible World

 

No. It's not. Hero System is not just Champions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is thinking this is deja vu all over again.

 

No, the Hero System is not just Champions.

 

However, many people do equate the two, and use Champions to refer to the HERO system as a whole (if for no other reason Champions sounds spiffier). He's not saying that it IS the same thing, he's not saying it SHOULD be the same thing, he's saying that the two are, in colloquial terms, considered synonymous, which is the truth.

 

I get a fair amount of "What's the HERO System?" I explain. "Oh, Champions!" when I discuss game systems.

 

The collie thinks you have a weird bug up your butt about this, and doesn't understand why you're so sensitive about it.

 

Anyway, neither the mechanical aspect nor the story aspect are more important. Both must operate synergistically, or else you have a story with no mechanics, also known as reading a book, or mechanics without story, which is many video games. They are both equally important.

[Lucius]

The Invisible World

 

No, the Hero System is not just Champions.

 

However, many people do equate the two, and use Champions to refer to the HERO system as a whole (if for no other reason Champions sounds spiffier).

.

 

Yes, they do. When they do, I will remind them that Hero System is not just Champions.

 

He's not saying that it IS the same thing, he's not saying it SHOULD be the same thing, he's saying that the two are, in colloquial terms, considered synonymous, which is the truth.

.

 

No. It's not. Hero System is not just Champions.

 

The collie thinks you have a weird bug up your butt about this, and doesn't understand why you're so sensitive about it.

 

I've been told I have a keen eye for the obvious. Sometimes I also seem to have a compulsion to point out the obvious, especially when people are ignoring it or pretending it isn't so. Perhaps it's a way to mitigate the pain of the painfully obvious.

 

Anyway, neither the mechanical aspect nor the story aspect are more important. Both must operate synergistically, or else you have a story with no mechanics, also known as reading a book, or mechanics without story, which is many video games. They are both equally important.

 

And this is a great quote. I think I'll rep you for it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary explains that Lucius has this psychological limitation...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Yes, they do. When they do, I will remind them that Hero System is not just Champions.

 

 

 

No. It's not. Hero System is not just Champions.

 

 

 

 

That was NOT what he was saying there. What he was saying THERE is that a lot of people think it is. And that is true. A lot of people DO think they are the same thing.

 

Those people may be wrong. But they DO think that.

 

(I could throw in a gratuitous GWB slam here, but I won't).

[KA.]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Well, if you want a 'scientific' solution, it all depends on the Pineal Gland.

 

What? No one else saw "From Beyond"?

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091083/

 

Basically, in this film (I haven't read the original story) a scientist discovers that people who are 'insane' and having 'hallucinations' actually have more developed Pineal Glands which allow them to see into a parallel dimension that is just slightly out of synch with our own.

 

'Normal' people can't see it at all, unless their Pineal Gland is stimulated with a 'Resonator', but the parallel dimension is filled with all kinds of nightmarish creatures, that can also see you.

 

In severe cases, or with enough stimulation, you (or they) can even 'cross the border' and 'interact'.

 

Which is why the 'insane' are always talking about things trying to kill them, being covered with bugs, etc.

 

As far as a game mechanic, I can see making it a 0-point Physical Limitation that some people are just randomly born with (those with a natural talent for magic, or prone to becoming werewolves, etc.).

 

And a free 'not quite Everyman' skill that can be taught.

 

So, you can be born being able to see these things, or you can be taught to see them at a very basic level.

(If someone in the know points out a vampire to you then you can see that is what they are, but you have a small chance to notice on your own, 8 or less? 6 or less?)

 

If you decide to invest points and actually learn the Skill, then you eventually get to the point where a Common, Easy, detection is automatic.

 

So that when you see a Vampire, you know exactly what it is.

 

I think this is supported somewhat, at least in the Buffy-verse.

(Not claiming to be an expert in this field, buy I have seen all the episodes at least a couple of times.)

 

Buffy, as The Slayer, would probably have been born with the Physical Limitation "Aware of the Supernatural".

But, before she was told of her destiny as the Slayer, she probably didn't encounter that many Vampires (too young to be running around much at night), and was also 'in denial' due to cultural norms (There's no such thing!).

 

Willow, Xander, etc. didn't really seem to be able to detect the Supernatural that well when they first got started, but over time seemed to get better at it.

So, they basically learned the Skill version.

 

This makes a decent distinction game wise, at least for me.

 

Enough random people will be born with the involuntary Physical Limitation to allow for some Mages, Ghost Hunters, Psychics, and Crackpots, and these people will pretty much always be 'in the loop'.

But, other people who need to know can be taught the Skill, and they will also be able to tell what is going on to a more limited degree.

 

KA.

[KA.]

Re: The Invisible World

 

ross-winn,

Since this is the first post of yours I have seen, even though it looks like you have been around a while, welcome to the Hero Boards.

 

On the 'Hero = Champions' controversy . . .

 

I think your first comment was intended to say that many Hero players like to stat out everything, and the implication that Hero = Champions, was just a common slip that many people who have been around since the days when Champions was Hero, myself included, make.

 

I also think that, given the fact that you are a columnist at RPG.net, your comments are being taken a bit more seriously than they otherwise might be.

 

The two statements that are likely to annoy a Hero fan most are:

 

"Everyone that plays Hero is an anal-retentive math geek that wants to have an official write-up for a grain of salt."

 

and

 

"Hero System? Oh, yeah, that Superhero game. I don't want to play Superheroes, why would I want to learn that?"

 

The spread of those two mostly false statements is a large part of what keeps Hero from being more popular with people who play other RPG's.

 

I have never taught Hero to anyone, gamer or non-gamer, that didn't like it once they got to know it. It is detailed, but not actually complicated.

 

And I, and many others who have been playing Hero since the first Champions Boxed set, and before, do not feel the need to stat out every object in the known universe. Just because you can, doesn't mean you want or need to.

 

So, to see someone who is in a position to influence the opinion of other gamers basically imply that they agree with two of the most unfair and damaging slams against the Hero system in one brief statement, on the Hero boards, is the sort of thing that could irritate people.

 

KA.

 

And now, of course, Hero Gamers will also be seen as hypersensitive and rude.

[Lucius]

Re: Re: Re:

 

That was NOT what he was saying there. What he was saying THERE is that a lot of people think it is. And that is true. A lot of people DO think they are the same thing.

 

.

 

I'm not saying it's not true that people say that. I'm saying that what they say isn't true.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Say it ain't so, palindromedary

[KA.]

Re:

 

I'm not saying it's not true that people say that. I'm saying that what they say isn't true.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

 

 

 

Just kidding!

 

 

KA.

[devlin1]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Well, if you want a 'scientific' solution, it all depends on the Pineal Gland.

 

What? No one else saw "From Beyond"?

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091083/

 

Basically, in this film (I haven't read the original story)

This is only slightly off-topic*, but the Lovecraft story is significantly different from the book. First off, it doesn't have the film's weird overtones of BDSM and sex. Disappointing, I know, but I'm not sure I'd want to read a graphic Lovecraftian description of sex. Second off, it's a much "smaller" story, involving only the protagonist, the crazy guy, and a household servant or two instead of a whole cadre of sacrificial extras.

 

In any event, the story's classic Lovecraft, so if you're into that kinda thing (and I am), it's worth reading.

 

We now return you to your dead horse(s).

[KA.]

Re: The Invisible World

 

This is only slightly off-topic*, but the Lovecraft story is significantly different from the book. First off, it doesn't have the film's weird overtones of BDSM and sex. Disappointing, I know, but I'm not sure I'd want to read a graphic Lovecraftian description of sex. Second off, it's a much "smaller" story, involving only the protagonist, the crazy guy, and a household servant or two instead of a whole cadre of sacrificial extras.

 

In any event, the story's classic Lovecraft, so if you're into that kinda thing (and I am), it's worth reading.

 

We now return you to your dead horse(s).

 

I have read quite a bit of Lovecraft and I really like it, I just haven't happened to read "From Beyond" yet.

It looks like I will need to, errr, 'dig it up'.

 

Thanks for the information,

 

KA.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Invisible World

 

While I understand your point' date=' to most people the two are synonymous. Champions is Hero and vice versa.[/quote']

 

To most people, tapping the top of your shaken up soda will keep it from exploding when you open it, but it doesn't make them right.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Invisible World

 

I've been told I have a keen eye for the obvious. Sometimes I also seem to have a compulsion to point out the obvious, especially when people are ignoring it or pretending it isn't so. Perhaps it's a way to mitigate the pain of the painfully obvious.

 

And somehow, you tie this little diversion right back into the topic of the thread. If I hadn't just given you rep, I'd give you rep.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Anyways, there was a topic here somewhere...

 

Oh yes! The supernatural thing that normal people don't see or volentarily interact with and stuff...

 

 

Okay, I've done something like before, but the campaign was short lived so I don't know how it would work long term, but it certainly worked short term.

 

All characters by default have a Psychological Limitation: Disbelieves the Supernatural World (uncommon, total), worth 15 points, but receive it at an automatic 0 point Disad.

 

Player characters may (read: are required to) replace this Disad with a Social Limitation: Part of the Supernatural World (frequently, major), also worth 15 points. It doesn't matter if the character actually has any supernatural abilities or even knowledge of the supernatural. What matters is his belief in it. Since he can no longer blissfully ignore it, it haunts him, seeks him out, and ruins his life (read: makes him a viable PC for such a campaign setting).

 

As for the whole hogwash of 60% of the world population believing in the supernatural, it doesn't mean they are part of that world. At least as many people believe in sub-atomic physics, but would be unable to tell you with any accuracy if and when they ever encountered it. When dealing with the supernatural, such people will point to many things and cry "witch!" and "sorcery!" and "demon!" but will hardly ever be right about it. When they are, it is nothing more than coincedence or luck.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Invisible World

 

To most people' date=' tapping the top of your shaken up soda will keep it from exploding when you open it, but it doesn't make them right.[/quote']

 

God DAMMIT, Dust Raven: that doesn't work at all - I'm soaked

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: The Invisible World

 

As for the whole hogwash of 60% of the world population believing in the supernatural' date=' it doesn't mean they are part of that world. At least as many people believe in sub-atomic physics, but would be unable to tell you with any accuracy if and when they ever encountered it. [/quote']

 

Much more interesting, of course, would be cases where they didn't encounter sub-atomic physics. How would that work?

 

 

OK, I'll stop it...