The Invisible World

[Steve]

This is a notion that White Wolf's World of Darkness used, that all these supernatural things exist, but they are not noticed by normal people for one reason or another.

 

How would you replicate an effect such that normal people can go on about their lives, but those aware of this "Invisible World" can affect it and be affected by it? I suppose it would be easiest with a genre effect built into the campaign, worth no points. Perhaps this invisiblity can be overcome by some sort of Detect? And any person with Powers would have that Detect as a freebie, since the original Invisiblity is a freebie?

 

Has anyone every played this sort of campaign? You could do supernatural/mystic sorts this way, but mentalist or aliens could also seem a good background.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Invisible World

 

If all the effect is is willful ignorance ("there are no ghosts!") then nothing needs be done.

 

If there is something more to it ... Disadvantages work best.

 

Psych Lim: Aware that the Supernatural is REAL

 

I'd put it at 10pts if it's moderately common or there's little effect than you know things you "shouldn't" and might be a target, or it affects how you live adn think and react with people.

 

If there are real effects, like things Know You Know and come after you then add a Hunted as well.

[OddHat]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Genre effect:

 

8d6 Mind Control Standard Effect, Constant, one command only, "Ignore the Supernatural". Most people won't want to notice, so this will be enough to keep people with up to 14 Ego from paying attention to the Supernatural most of the time. They'll get a breakout roll when it's right in front of them, but they'll soon stop worrying about it again. If the Supernatural is a danger to the person, ignoring it is an EGO + 20 effect, and suddenly the veil tears. It will close again for most people as soon as the danger passes, but if you're running into the Supernatural all the time and/or have a high Ego or some Mental Def, the Veil won't be able to reform.

 

If you don't want it as a universal effect, it could be an AOE:R Always on effect that all supernatural creatures have by default.

[pinecone]

Re: The Invisible World

 

I do something like this with magic in 4 color games with the phych lim "Code of the sorcerer" basicly All trained magic weilders think magic is Much too danderous for public knowlage and cover up up events enen if they themselves had no part in...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Its just part of the operating assumptions of the setting, like gravity and an oxygen based atmosphere.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: The Invisible World

 

I like the Ghost Angel's : Psych Lim: Aware that the Supernatural is REAL

 

I use a similiar disad for my character 'The PC' = Psych Lim: knows truth about his own existence.

[transmetahuman]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Game mechanics aside, I keep trying to come up with a plausable, consistent way a "secret magic" world could work. Even granting magic that can do anything, what internal rules would be in effect? You can't just have a blanket "Ignore the supernatural!" mind control without explaining why, then, all those occult bookstores have customers and every newspaper runs astrology columns. Even "Ignore any evidence of the supernatural!" doesn't work - people believe they've seen plenty.

 

Another issue is how to make it so that neophyte PCs, magically gifted but clueless about the conspiracy/effect/whatever it is, become immune. If I was a cabal of mages setting up a world-spanning enchantment to hide my powers, I wouldn't put a clause in there that says, basically, potential rivals are immune! If it's a natural effect, there ought to be some kind of magical rationale for it besides "it just is".

 

The WoD games had at least a half-arsed explanation* - but that whole technomage-paradigm-ascendant thing falls apart when you realize that more than half the people in the world believe in ghosts, spirits, astrology, crystals, etc. (according to some surveys I've seen, anyway).

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, just that I haven't figured out an internally consistent rationale that satisfies *me*. Anyone want to take a shot at it? Remembering that, at least for the sake of argument, that most people *do* claim to believe in the supernatural?

 

* Forgive me if I'm misrepresenting WoD's explanation; I've only learned what I pick up online, never played the game.

[OddHat]

Re: The Invisible World

 

The WoD games had at least a half-arsed explanation* - but that whole technomage-paradigm-ascendant thing falls apart when you realize that more than half the people in the world believe in ghosts, spirits, astrology, crystals, etc. (according to some surveys I've seen, anyway).

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, just that I haven't figured out an internally consistent rationale that satisfies *me*. Anyone want to take a shot at it? Remembering that, at least for the sake of argument, that most people *do* claim to believe in the supernatural?

 

Yup. About 80% of Americans and 60% of people world wide say that they believe in some form of the supernatural. They may not believe in other people's ideas about the supernatural, but most are not skeptics.

 

White Wolf games sucked.

[sinanju]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Yup. About 80% of Americans and 60% of people world wide say that they believe in some form of the supernatural. They may not believe in other people's ideas about the supernatural, but most are not skeptics.

 

White Wolf games sucked.

 

I disagree. The mechanics sucked, but I loved the Mage campaign backstory.

 

As for the "secret wars aspect," my own take on it was:

 

A. By definition, a true Mage sees reality. That's what being a mage means, and it's what allows him to manipulate that reality (i.e., work magic). Mages who see ghosts, vampires, werewolves, etc. don't tell themselves they've imagined it or mistaken something else for an impossible creature--they know what they've seen.

 

B. Vampires, werewolves and other supernatural critters other than Mages have as skewed (and limited in its own way) a vision of the world as anyone else. They know more than most mundane people, but hardly everything--and some of what they know for certain is wrong.

 

C. Far more mundane people than the game tends to imply know about a lot of what's going on. As has been pointed out, 60% of public believes in the supernatural in one flavor or another. Some significant fraction of them are in the know about mages, werewolves and vampires--but with little physical evidence to back up their beliefs (and that's where an unspoken conspiracy of silence amongs the supernatural _does_ come into play), most people simply don't believe them.

[keithcurtis]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Its just part of the operating assumptions of the setting' date=' like gravity and an oxygen based atmosphere.[/quote']

repped.

 

As for how to handle the genre convention. Most people in such worlds are unaware of and unaffected by the supernatural until their acceptance of it. Once they meet their first vampire, then all sorts of craziness enters their world.

Alternatively, they encounter and believe in the supernatural just before it kills them. Otherwise they just ignore it.

 

Keith "My 2¢" Curtis

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Invisible World

 

I'm not that familiar with the World of Darkness, so I have to ask if this "invisible world" is actually invisible to normal people, like Faerie, or just not public knowledge?

 

If it's the latter, and if it's a matter of normal people being unable or unwilling to perceive this world, it could be run as a default Physical or Psychological Limitation which may be "bought off" when a person encounters the supernatural. OTOH if the supernatural creatures actively work to avoid being noticed, I'd suggest that they all have the Deep Cover Perk, possibly as an "everycreature" element.

 

If it's an actual power of imperceptibility, I'd need more details as to how it works before I could recommend anything.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Invisible World

 

I'm not that familiar with the World of Darkness' date=' so I have to ask if this "invisible world" is actually invisible to normal people, like Faerie, or just not public knowledge?[/quote']

 

It depends.

 

Vampires, for example, are plainly visible if they do something vampiric; however, if people see a werewolf, they suffer from 'the Delirium' which puts some kind of Jungian memory traumatization into it where they either rationalize it away or simply forget. Mages suffer from Paradox, which is the effect of them attempting to violate consensual reality (the idea that reality is what it is solely because six billion 'mundanes' think that's how it should be, and their willpower comes crashing down on you when you decide that, actually, people *can* shoot lasers out of their eyes). I never played Changeling or Wraith, so can't comment on those.

 

In WotC's Urban Arcana, though, magical beings and magical effects can walk right out in the open, and they won't be noticed; an Ogre would be seen as a hulking man, a dragon would be a low-flying plane, etc. It's a combination of the masking effects of Shadow and the fact that most people really don't WANT to see anything that would mess with how they think the world should be. I was going to represent this with a Phys Lim on the normals, 'Unable To Percieve Shadow', myself ... if I really worried about it, other than simply going 'okay, this is how it works'. It's not like the PCs could take it.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Invisible World

 

In the Russian movie Nightwatch, it was essentially a perk - normal people literally couldn't see magic stuff. So you could see a vampire, but you wouldn't realise that it was anything other than a normal guy.

 

Of course, there are plenty of non-magic people around who can "see", but many of them don't realise it, because they've never encountered anything supernatural.

 

If you wanted a distinct difference between real and non-real, that's how I'd do it, although I'd probably hand it out as a 0 point freebie, since pretty much every PC would *have* to have it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The Invisible World

 

I am not familiar with World of Darkness myself, but I have dealt with similar situations in other campaigns. For supernatural creatures that can be seen by normal people but just not recognized as supernatural, I have run it where all supernatural have Distinctive Features "Supernatural" for 5 points, but they are only recognizable by characters with Mental Awareness (another Detect could be substituted, but this is more of a plot device so I didn't want a whole different sense just for this purpose).

 

For situations where the supernatural are invisible to normals, I have had all supernaturals buy Images vs. Sight, -7 PER, only to bamboozle normals(-1), 0 END, Persistant, Always On, No Range (42 Active, 14 Real). To cover the complex movement of the supernatural, the average viewer gets a +4 to the PER roll, but that still leaves it at -3, so the average joe won't normally see anything, but once in a while they will catch a glimpse. Most often I figure a normal will dismiss such a vision, but it could freak some people out. I only cover Sight with this because people should hear things go bump in the night. Then a typical mage (or other enlighten person) will have a True Sight ability which is +6 Visual PER, only to see through illusions (-½).

 

Although I am a big fan of the pointless plot device, these setups helped put some concrete game mechanics on abilities (especially the Images).

 

__________________________________________________________

"Nobody must know my name, for nobody would understand, and you kill what you fear, and you fear what you don't understand." - The Guide Vocal from The Duke's Travels

[ross_winn]

Re: The Invisible World

 

For Champions I think the mechanical aspect is critical. This is Champions after all...

[Lucius]

Re: The Invisible World

 

For Champions I think the mechanical aspect is critical. This is Champions after all...

 

No. It's not.

 

Hero System is not just Champions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks that sounds familiar....like something that's been said again and again....

[ross_winn]

Re: The Invisible World

 

No. It's not.

 

Hero System is not just Champions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks that sounds familiar....like something that's been said again and again....

 

While I understand your point, to most people the two are synonymous. Champions is Hero and vice versa.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Invisible World

 

For Champions I think the mechanical aspect is critical. This is Champions after all...

The Mechanics do not, and should not, trump all or become so important that everything must have a mechanical effect in the game.

 

Universal Game Effects that are part of the setting inherently don't need mechanics - they just are.

 

Otherwise we'll need to add a few things and start everyone at 0 - literally - because you'll need to buy Life Support: Breathing; Oxygen Atmosphere since this is Champions and Mechanics mean everything, afterall.

[ross_winn]

Re: The Invisible World

 

The Mechanics do not, and should not, trump all or become so important that everything must have a mechanical effect in the game.

 

Universal Game Effects that are part of the setting inherently don't need mechanics - they just are.

 

Otherwise we'll need to add a few things and start everyone at 0 - literally - because you'll need to buy Life Support: Breathing; Oxygen Atmosphere since this is Champions and Mechanics mean everything, afterall.

 

But they are in the setting mechanically -- from the creation of the first version they are assumed. Everything else is a diversion from that norm. Since you are adding a new permutation and special effect you need a mechanical justification from that norm.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Only if you want to do it that way. Many HERO gamers do, many others don't, and are quite happy with that for their own games. Just as lots of other games make assumptions without building them mechanically.

 

We have to be careful that this doesn't turn into one of those "right and wrong way to have fun" debates.

 

From what CrosshairCollie is describing, it sounds as though these effects are somewhat different depending on which WoD game you're playing. Moreover, sometimes the effects pertain to normal folks, whereas others are imposed on the exceptional magical beings.

 

Given that, my impression is that the best way to deal with this game-mechanically is through various Physical or Psychological Limitations, applied to either normal people or supernatural creatures as warranted, which can either be overcome like Psych Lims, or bought off like Physical ones, under the right circumstances.

[keithcurtis]

Re: The Invisible World

 

While I understand your point' date=' to most people the two are synonymous. Champions is Hero and vice versa.[/quote']

If the question were meant to deal solely with the Champions genre, it would have been posted to the Champions forum...

 

Keith "QED" Curtis

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Invisible World

 

If the question were meant to deal solely with the Champions genre, it would have been posted to the Champions forum...

 

Keith "QED" Curtis

 

Continuing the Threadjack ...

 

It's kind of like how Xerox has come to mean all photocopiers, Kleenex means all facial tissues, and Rollerblades means all in-line skates. Not technically accurate, but common (mis-)usage has given it the broader meaning.

 

Back on topic ...

 

The mechanical implications *are* important, because it matters if the PCs want to try to circumvent them somehow. The classic example, of course, is trying to convince somebody important that the mystical/alien things in the world actually exist.

 

If you do it with a Disadvantage, you need a Transform.

If it's done with Images, you need to boost their PERception or grant them a Detect for it, or something, or perhaps a Dispel.

If it's done with Mind Control ('forget you saw this'), then you need to counter it with another Mental Power, or perhaps a Dispel or somesuch.

 

Only if you intend for it to be utterly impossible for the PCs to intentionally break the 'shroud' do the mechanical implications not matter, as near as I can tell.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Very well put, CC. I'd only disagree with this point:

 

If you do it with a Disadvantage' date=' you need a Transform.[/quote']

 

Not necessarily. Disads in general can always be bought off, and encounters with the supernatural can be the justification for a "radiation accident" expenditure of Experience. In the specific case of a Psych Lim, you can overcome that at least temporarily with an Ego Roll.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Invisible World

 

Very well put, CC. I'd only disagree with this point:

 

 

 

Not necessarily. Disads in general can always be bought off, and encounters with the supernatural can be the justification for a "radiation accident" expenditure of Experience. In the specific case of a Psych Lim, you can overcome that at least temporarily with an Ego Roll.

 

Well, in the context I was thinking of (and didn't specify, my bad), if you want to force the issue, you'd need a Transform. I was specifically thinking of my definition of it as a Phys Lim (which can't be overcome), and you can't really force your GM to spend his NPC's XP to buy it off.

 

I was really on more of a 'Let the veil of the unseen be lifted from this unwitting mortal' spell kind of kick, but the point, in general, is taken.

[devlin1]

Re: The Invisible World

 

This discussion (the actual discussion-- not the "HERO is not just Champions!" discussion) reminds me of Neverwhere, in which much was made about the idea that most people in London Above simply don't notice anyone from London Below. In that scenario, I'd say nothing has to be done with the PCs or anyone else who's aware. It's the common ignorant rabble who have the Psych Lim. After all, it's not a limitation to know more than the average citizen, but it is a limitation to be ignorant of some aspect of the world around you. In Neverwhere terms, this lack of awareness would've been bought at the Strong level, IMO. If forced, someone from London Above (the protagonist's fiancee or coworker, for example) could acknowledge a visitor from London Below, but only briefly, and even then there was a total lack of recognition, as if Richard had never existed.

 

The tidy part about this solution is that for the PCs, it's mechanically invisible! So there: you need mechanics for it, you got mechanics for it, but in the meantime, only the GM will ever have to worry about it.