The Developmental History of HERO

[DrFaust]

I've seen it remarked in various discussions that standard Champions characters used to be built on fewer points. I'm not sure if it's possible to ask the following question without getting into a discussion of whether that increase in base points is good or bad, and all the attendent rancor, but it'd be good if that were avoided.

 

So what prompted the change? Were abilities recosted? Were new characteristics and such added in? Did someone, at some point, decide starting super heroes didn't have enough powers?

[Edsel]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

The shift from 250 point to 350 point characters took place with the release of 5th Edition. I believe that it had more to do with the fact that players didn't have enough points of buy skills and such to round out their character designs. The recommended power level of attacks and defenses did not change.

 

Early Champions was pretty much all about building a character to fight with. Nowadays it has matured to where most people want to do some serious role-playing in addition to fighting. So people generally wanted more points so they could buy the lesser skills and abilities to make more well-rounded characters.

 

Another factor is probably due to a shift to older players. Back in the 80s I think that the average Champions player was probably a teenager or in their 20s. There are a lot more seasoned players out there now. I am 43 and the players in my group range from mid-40s to 30s in age.

[austenandrews]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

My impression was that more base points allowed players to build decent characters without requiring frameworks and Limitations, which are daunting to less seasoned Hero gamers. I can't recall where I heard that, though.

 

Somebody ask Steve.

[Susano]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

The Developmental History of HERO: Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it.

 

And then came 5th Edition.

[MitchellS]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

Champions had been set at the 250 point level in 1E. In the 21 years between 1E and 5E the game had undergone many changes and many increases [new skills, new powers, new perks, etc.]. Because of all the new things you could pick from the point levels really needed to be increased in order for you to be able to afford all these new things. The increase really should have taken place in 4E but tradition demanded that it not be changed. Also 5E increased the base cost of somethings, which then required additional points to be able to utilize them [life support, damage shields, etc.]. So what you ended up with in 5E is 350 starting point characters who aren't radically more powerful then their 250 point 1E-3E counterparts. I would say overall the players really only gained about 30-40 extra points.

[HeroGM]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

hehe...Airplane! quote....love it. *hands you a piece of paper* now lets see what you can make with this

 

I think it's just one more way that Hero has evolved along with comics. Characters in books now have a bigger backstory/skill set while the first few editions of Champion's paralleled the silver-age Marvel/DC books.

[DrFaust]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

So it's a little from Column A and a little from Column B. I kinda suspected that.

 

Good work, Johnny. Let's go up to the tower.

[Susano]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

hehe...Airplane! quote....love it. *hands you a piece of paper* now lets see what you can make with this

 

This? *fold* *fold* Why, I can make a hat or a brooch or a pterodactyl...

[Susano]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

In all seriousness, I recall seeing the sample characters in Champions 1E and seeing point totals of 195-225 points. Extremely simple builds (EB, FF, Flight), little to no skills (since there were few skills to begin with), an no Perks of Talents as they hadn't been developed yet.

 

When I started play in 1985, with the recently released 3rd Edition softback (with three heroes on the cover), 250-points was the norm, but our GM was daring and let us use 275 points.

 

4th Edition really opened up the system, and showed that 250-points, while a nice number, wasn't enough to build many modern concepts. Also, the 100-point base was a touch low. I recall a lot of builds becoming cheaper with 4th, if only because of the revised Endurance rules for supers.

 

5th Edition, with its plethora of options, allows for nice and elaborate 350 point characters, although in some cases, I've found myself running out of things to buy for the concept I have in mind (adapting fiction characters is another matter).

 

As for the damage levels... that's up the the GM. I'm in a CU game right now, with a GM who's a stickler for the 60 AP cap, but we haven't had many major fights, so I can't comment on the outcome of combat.

[Edsel]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

I dusted off my 1st Edition copy of Champions.

 

A starting character gets 100 points, but no hard rule limited the amount of Disadvantages you could have. The GM would have to impose his own limit, if any.

 

The 1st and 2nd similar disadvantage were worth full points.

3rd & 4th similar disads were worth 1/2 points.

5th & 6th similar disads were worth 1/4 points.

Any more similar disads were worth 0 points.

 

By similar disad they meant that all Psychological Limitations were similar to each other. All Physical Limitations were similar to each other. All Hunters were similar to each other, etc.

[Warp9]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

I dusted off my 1st Edition copy of Champions.

 

A starting character gets 100 points, but no hard rule limited the amount of Disadvantages you could have. The GM would have to impose his own limit, if any.

 

The 1st and 2nd similar disadvantage were worth full points.

3rd & 4th similar disads were worth 1/2 points.

5th & 6th similar disads were worth 1/4 points.

Any more similar disads were worth 0 points.

 

By similar disad they meant that all Psychological Limitations were similar to each other. All Physical Limitations were similar to each other. All Hunters were similar to each other, etc.

Yep. That is exactly how it was in my early Champs books.

 

I am a bit confused about where people are getting the 250 point concept from. . . .

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

I dusted off my 1st Edition copy of Champions.

 

A starting character gets 100 points, but no hard rule limited the amount of Disadvantages you could have. The GM would have to impose his own limit, if any.

 

The 1st and 2nd similar disadvantage were worth full points.

3rd & 4th similar disads were worth 1/2 points.

5th & 6th similar disads were worth 1/4 points.

Any more similar disads were worth 0 points.

 

By similar disad they meant that all Psychological Limitations were similar to each other. All Physical Limitations were similar to each other. All Hunters were similar to each other, etc.

 

Yup - the cap to Disad's from a single category later replaced this, but a cap to total Disad's came much later. I can remember playing with 300 point characters in early editions - they just had a lot of disadvantages (many Hunteds, in particular, IIRC).

 

Note that the 1st Ed characters generally were geared around PC attacks ranging from 8d6 to 12d6, not the "12d6 for everyone" approach which is more common now. The first published martial artist example had 26 DEX and, I think, 6 SPD. A typical Brick had 4 SPD and 18 DEX. I don't think anyone in the 1st - 2nd Ed books had a SPD greater than 7, and that was very rare. So there has been some stat inflation along the way.

[MitchellS]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

I don't think anyone in the 1st - 2nd Ed books had a SPD greater than 7' date=' and that was very rare. So there has been some stat inflation along the way.[/quote']

Not as rare as you would think. In Enemies Thok, Fox, Dragon Master, Panda, Mongoose, and Firewing all had 7 speeds. Ray had an 8 speed. Avar-7, Minute-men, Slick, Raccoon, Lazer, Ladybug, Black Mamba, Cobra, Mind Slayer, Vibron, Frizbee, and Sunburst all had 6 speeds. In fact, out of 35 supers in Enemies only 5 villians had a 4 speed. As far as damages, 22 of the characters did 12d6 or more [either normal, nnd, or killing]; and several only did 8-10d6 but had drains or other ways of making that more effective.

[kave99]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

with the introduction of Justest Inc and Espionage {later danger international} a lot of champions games Incorporated the skills and talents from them. by 4th ed they were offishal as was the 250pt cap to prevent the rampant abuse of dis-adds. that was fond to be a little constraining that led to the 350pt character of 5th ed.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

Take a look at this thread right here.

[John Desmarais]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

Yep. That is exactly how it was in my early Champs books.

 

I am a bit confused about where people are getting the 250 point concept from. . . .

 

250 (100 base + 150 in disads) was the recommended point level for a Champions character in 3rd edition. 1st (as I recall) didn't have any real recommended level (and 2nd edition wasn't really that different from 1st). 150 points in disads was also about the most you could gracefully squeeze into a character under the pre-4th edition disad rules.

 

4th edition made this more explicit, while also adding in recommended point levels for other type of characters (4th edition was where the system really became a unified universal system as opposed to scattered group of similar system all based to some degree on Champions).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

250 (100 base + 150 in disads) was the recommended point level for a Champions character in 3rd edition. 1st (as I recall) didn't have any real recommended level (and 2nd edition wasn't really that different from 1st). 150 points in disads was also about the most you could gracefully squeeze into a character under the pre-4th edition disad rules.

 

As I recall, a lot of 1e/2e characters were 200 points (100 + 100 disad), but I agree there was no recommended level. In fact, I recall one article suggesting the Muscle be bulked up with lots of Disad's, making them both stronger in some ways and weaker in others.

[archermoo]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

I guess I never really noticed the recommended point levels, probably at least in part to the fact that I've never used the Champions Universe.

 

I've been using 200+150 since 4th, specificaly so that characters could be more diverse.

[Egyptoid]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

When I started play in 1985' date=' with the recently released 3rd Edition softback (with three heroes on the cover), 250-points was the norm, but our GM was daring and let us use 275 points. [/quote']

 

It was like old programming. Used to be you had to make

a nice program run inside only 64K memory and it had to do

what it did with what it had.

 

Same thought with the 250 point cap:

You'd try to make a guy that "does everything Spider-Man can do"

for 250 points or less. "This guys just like Bat-Man and only

cost 250 points" It was a point of pride to fit the concept

in the limit.

 

But well rounded? no.

can you imagine leaving home without your cell-phone?

(HRRH OAF gadget)

[keithcurtis]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

I think I used 150+150 since, well, waaay back, anyway. I'm not sure where I got it from, but it was common enough in our neck of the woods that it felt offical.

 

Keith "Like -1 ocv from a half-move" Curtis

[Ghost Archer]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

Ya all got it all wrong...the points changed 'cuz the book got bigger! Tiny 'lil thin thing in 1st to the massively thick tome of 5ER. Size matters is all.

 

 

I never used point limits anyway so it never mattered to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

When 5th came out, it took me forever to design a 350 point character as opposed to a 250 point character with some added neat stuff and a whole bunch of extra points I couldn't seem to spend on anything logical.

 

Now it is almost second nature.

 

I think that the reason was that a lot of campaigns had been going a long while and 350 points made the game seem more immediately relevant and, of course, they could re-issue all the villain books with updated and more powerful villains.

 

Surely not.

[Vondy]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

The increase in points was to allow for more robust beginning characters IMO. However, some things got more expensive when 5th came out (not just powers), so its also necessary to support the increased cost of building a character. Personally, I just want to see a good character design that's in the ball-park for the campaign. The points aren't really important.

[archermoo]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

I think I used 150+150 since, well, waaay back, anyway. I'm not sure where I got it from, but it was common enough in our neck of the woods that it felt offical.

 

Keith "Like -1 ocv from a half-move" Curtis

 

Well, -1 OCV from a half-move actually used to be part of the rules. I still use it.

[HeroGM]

Re: The Developmental History of HERO

 

I think I used 150+150 since, well, waaay back, anyway. I'm not sure where I got it from, but it was common enough in our neck of the woods that it felt offical.

 

Keith "Like -1 ocv from a half-move" Curtis

 

For some reason I think the original Golden Age Champions' has 150+100 - 150+150 as suggested values.