Is there going to be a heroes book?

[megaplayboy]

well, one thing I wouldn't mind seeing, given that the Champions are basically the flagship NPC team in the Champions Universe, would be some kind of flagship solo NPC hero, like Supes and Spidey for DC and Marvel respectively.

 

Some players resent or don't appreciate highly capable NPC heroes flying in to save the day, but on the other hand a lot of players like to know there 's someone out there in case they fail, or that there's an icon for them to look up to when they're just starting out. NPC heroes are also a handy tool for GMs--they can call the PC team for help, give useful info, add flavor to the campaign, and provide a little extra muscle when a player is a no show for a big fight.

 

 

Was there ever any thought about an iconic solo character for the Champions Universe?

[Agent X]

I'm one of the guys on the forums who thinks that, if the Champions are the flagship heroes, they need to be built on more points. Icons are not average superheroes.

[keithcurtis]

I think an incredibly useful team would be a Hero Team sourcebook. Each chapter would cover a different type of superteam.

Examples:

 

The Governement Sanctioned Team (Avengers, some incarnations of the JLA)

 

The independant supernational team (The Authority, some incarnations of the JLA)

 

The Privately Funded Team (Teen Titans, Marvel's Champions, The FF)

 

The Outcast Team (The Doom Patrol and their copy, the X-Men )

 

The for-hire team (Power Man/ Iron Fist, Some team that DC recently had that I can't remember)

 

and probably others...

 

Each write-up would include the heroes, their HQ, vehicles and gadgets, how they operate, what tactics they use and a (GM vault) adventure for each. Each chapter would also include a lengthy section on how to adapt it for your PC's or campaign.

 

Keith "Just thinking out loud" Curtis

[Morningstar]

I would love to have a heroes book simply because(like most of my friends) I don't get a chance to play anymore but reading all the material and mentally making characters is still a lot of fun. I might be in the minority but having a good career, family and little time, makes it hard to play but easy to afford books that cost less than taking the family to one movie. Ill buy them all unless the start to become rushed or poor quality.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Allies

 

Originally posted by SKJAM!

Well, I'm certainly glad to see that some of you (many of you?) enjoyed Allies, even if it didn't sell very well. It's interesting to see different people's reactions to the various concepts.

 

Unfortunately, since I signed away the rights to the characters when I accepted the contract, I am given to understand that I can't put updated versions of them up here on the bulletin board. And since there are no plans to reuse any of the characters, that leaves them in limbo....

 

But hey, if Allies didn't sell well, that means there should still be cheap stockpiles of them in various game stores' back rooms.

 

For what it's worth,

SKJAM!

 

Sean, I'm another of the folks who enjoyed Allies; many of the characters made guest appearances in my campaigns, albeit with the inevitable tweaks that all HERO GMs seem to make.

 

Have you asked Steve about the possibility of posting updated versions of any of them to the boards? I inquired about VOICE, and Steve told me that although Hero Games still owns the rights to them, since he doesn't intend to use them in the new CU it would be all right to update them, discuss changes etc. as long as we made it clear that it was being done with Hero's permission. (Haven't had time to deal with that one yet, but I have plans, heheh...) Perhaps Steve would make allowances for some of your characters, as well.

 

As far as new NPC heroes goes, while I'm not sure I'd be that interested in a book focussing on more North American supeheroes (between old and new edition writeups I think I have that pretty well covered), the heroes of many other countries would definitely interest me. International NPC heroes make good encounters as local color or visitors to this continent on special missions. Ideally I support the previously mentioned notion of a book or books detailing various regions of the world, with notable heroes and villains from each region. I'm sure there'd be a market for that.

[BobGreenwade]

Of course, I don't think anyone here (or at least not many) are saying that a new Allies book should be added to the 2005 schedule. There are a lot of other books screaming to be done before that. We'd just like to have it considered for the product line. If done well, it could even lead to heroes books in other genres.

[SKJAM!]

No and yes

 

Well, after messaging Mr. Long on the subject, it seems that while there are no plans for an heroes book as such, *some* of the characters from Allies *may* be used in future Hero products (and no, I don't know which ones), so no updates. Sorry, folks.

 

Regretfully,

SKJAM!

(Meanwhile, please check your FLGS for back copies of Allies! This has been an egoplug.)

[TheEmerged]

I have to admit that I'd be more interested in more NPC Heroes than most -- after all, I'm running a villain campaign. My PC's need somebody to beat up

[Hermit]

Re: No and yes

 

Originally posted by SKJAM!

Well, after messaging Mr. Long on the subject, it seems that while there are no plans for an heroes book as such, *some* of the characters from Allies *may* be used in future Hero products (and no, I don't know which ones), so no updates. Sorry, folks.

 

Regretfully,

SKJAM!

 

Well, if they're taking votes, I'd put the Cyberknights at the top of my request list

 

Thanks for checking SKJAM

[Jhamin]

Re: Re: No and yes

 

Originally posted by Hermit

Well, if they're taking votes, I'd put the Cyberknights at the top of my request list

 

Thanks for checking SKJAM

 

Seconded!

[wcw43921]

Cyberknights is good; Executive Sanction would be even better, as the PCs would be more likely to meet up wih them as some city-shaking menace threatens to endanger the nation.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing the 5th Edition Zen Team--they were favorites of mine.

[Lord Liaden]

As long as we're discussing characters from Allies that we'd like to see updated:

 

The Cyberknights were an excellent example of a "theme" team: very balanced, interesting personalities, and good for NPC encounters, especially if your PCs need technological expertise.

 

Ditto the Zen Team: good manga-style team flavor, good for an international encounter, and potential conflicts over the agenda of their corporate sponsors.

 

The Flashmen make wonderful rivals for PC heroes, since they are unlikely to actually compete with the players' heroes in world-saving and fighting evil, but are masters of claiming credit they don't deserve.

 

Executive Sanction is a good idea for a government-sponsored team that can be allies or obstacles for PC heroes, depending on the specific circumstances and the PC's relationship with the government. They do need more combat capability, though.

 

The Redeemed is a very interesting concept which can pose some moral dilemmas and grey areas for heroes. It might be helpful if the abilities and skills of the Redeemed covered a broader spectrum, so that they could be brought in from time to time for non-combat contributions.

[djday38]

What about the Protectors?

 

If we are talking about past champions hero teams to get updated for 5th my vote has to go to the Protectors from "To Serve and Protect".

 

They were easily my favourite NPC hero team (even above the characters in Stike Force and that is priase indeed).

 

I seem to remember there were other threads talking about them recently?

So what are the chances of us seeing them updated? anyone want to speculate?

 

Regarding the Allies supplement he teams I would like to see make a comeback were Executive Sanction, The Redeemed, and the Cyberknights.

 

More for the fact that the CU needs those team "types" than keeping individual memebers intact.

 

rgds

Dean

[Lord Liaden]

Re: What about the Protectors?

 

Originally posted by djday38

If we are talking about past champions hero teams to get updated for 5th my vote has to go to the Protectors from "To Serve and Protect".

 

They were easily my favourite NPC hero team (even above the characters in Stike Force and that is priase indeed).

 

I seem to remember there were other threads talking about them recently?

So what are the chances of us seeing them updated? anyone want to speculate?

 

Well, we're about half way there.

 

Fellow board member Glen Sprigg posted 5E updates of Helios, Silverfist, Renegade, Ace and Doc Sonic on the pre-DOS discussion boards, with the full blessing of TSaP author Scott Heine, who also gave us fascinating behind-the-scenes details of his campaign which spawned them. You can find those updates here:

 

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/002229.html

 

http://www.herogames.com/oldForum/Champions/002229-2.html

 

Scott Heine also generously contributed new color renderings of those characters to go with the updated stats. I don't think they're attached to that thread any more, but Scott was kind enough to put up a link to the whole gallery:

 

http://www.geocities.com/scott_heine_hero/

 

Unfortunately, neither Scott nor Glen has had the opportunity to do more with them yet, although Scott keeps threatening to post pics of the rest of the team. Worth waiting for, says I.

[Hermit]

On Executive Sanction

 

I have to admit, Executive Sanction really didn't do anything for me. They were okay, but my least favorite team in the book. They didn't seem very formidible (nothing wrong with that if you prefer them as investigative over combat ready I suppose), OR interesting (Sorry, I found their personalities mostly bland). Out of all the teams in allies, I think they would need the most retooling. Understand, I'm comparing them to the other teams in the Allies book, some of which were exceptional.

 

That doesn't mean such a team is a bad idea. In fact, in the current Champions Universe, with the registration act a fact and the stakes upped (Destroyer has leveled a city etc) I think such a team is a must. I, personally, think such a team would be more potent in combat overall, have training in Public Relations, and often work with Agents/Followers in other departments to supplement them in research and investigations.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: On Executive Sanction

 

I agree with virtually all your points regarding this team, Hermit. I've been thinking about them since SKJAM! first brought them up on this thread; I realized that given the current state of the Champions Universe, it would be pretty easy to retool them into a more effective combat unit, without diminishing their intelligence-gathering capacity or significantly altering their interpersonal dynamic.

 

Since we still have Project: Sunburst and PRIMUS in the CU, Major Star and Silver Avenger Rakham could remain virtually unchanged. Panacea contributes almost nothing to the team other than his healing power, but the character Lifeline from The Mutant File has very nearly the same background, mutant healing ability and mindset, but far more formidable and versatile (albeit mostly defensive) combat capability, plus broader scientific expertise.

 

Stewart White is also a poor fighter, and his lack of costume and code name further sets him apart from the rest of the team, but his computer manipulating powers can be very useful; it wouldn't be hard, though, to justify passing his power suite on to Foresight (she might even have studied accounting.) As a replacement for him, I'd suggest another operative from another government agency, the CIA's Felix 9 (also from Allies). IMHO his distinctive appearance works against him as a credible covert operative, but he would bring formidable "black ops" expertise to Executive Sanction. And he's even more socially inept than Stewart White!

 

With virtually no change to her background, Victory (from Champions Universe) would make a very appropriate substitute for Traveller as NASA's representative on Executive Sanction. And FBI agent Frank Long, aka "Gumshoe," would be a worthier candidate than Lucius Grimes to pilot the Bureau's Stalwart powered armor suit (also from CU). If you didn't want to change Stalwart, you could either have him replace Gumshoe as the FBI candidate for Executive Sanction, or have the experiment that VIPER performed on Frank Long give him more offensive powers. (I did that with Long when I used ES, changing his codename to the more heroic, and apropo, "G-Man.")

[mrswing]

I too would like to see a set of iconic solo heroes for the CU. IMO, the CU has generally (in all editions) been weakest on the hero front. A large number of really good villain concepts have been published over the years, but relatively few heroes of comparable quality have been presented (and yes I would also consider the Protectors as the best of the lot so far). Freedom City succeeds in giving us very recognizable heroes (sometimes so recognizable I worry about plagiarism suits) which do not detract from the enjoyment of the game in any way.

Somewhat related to this is an idea I've had for a long time. The problem with most published superhero rpg adventures to my mind is that they can only work on the level of spectacle (action sequences) because they have to work for a huge number of gaming groups. On the other hand, many people find it difficult to find large gaming groups, while getting together with one or two friends is more manageable. Wouldn't it be possible to come up with sourcebook/adventures focussing on one hero (or maybe two, Batman and Robin style) who is examined in depth, also presenting a ready-made set of NPCs and story hooks, and then use this hero in a short campaign (three adventures maybe?) in the same book? This would help new players immensely, and save time for GMs - as well as enable the sourcebook writer to add more (and deeper) character interaction in the adventures so they actually are closer in feel to the source material? If these supplements were not too big in size (or presented a lot of extra campaign material) I think they could be quite succesful - and perhaps even cross over to other superhero game systems (indeed, they could be dual- or tri-statted).

[assault]

Originally posted by mrswing

Wouldn't it be possible to come up with sourcebook/adventures focussing on one hero (or maybe two, Batman and Robin style) who is examined in depth, also presenting a ready-made set of NPCs and story hooks, and then use this hero in a short campaign (three adventures maybe?) in the same book?

 

A kind of mini-campaign with pregenerated characters? Interesting. I don't know how it would sell, but it would certainly be interesting reading.

 

It reminds me a little of the old DC Heroes RPG sourcebooks on Superman and Batman. The Batman one, in particular, had a couple of reasonably developed, if uninspired, scenarios.

 

More generally, I suppose the pregen(s) could be replaced by other characters of the same general archetype(s). This would be easiest in non-powered Dark Champions games, I suppose. Of course, even there there can be a range of characters. Not every character would be a clone of the Punisher or the Batman, and their responses to situations could vary accordingly. (Green Arrow? The Question?)

 

But anyway, you are correct in that small groups (1 or 2 PCs) are a viable way of playing Champions. Of course, small group games aren't _entirely_ different from larger groups, but they probably are more dependent on background details and NPCs.

 

The problem is, of course, that background details aren't necessarily applicable to all campaigns. Then again, the characters presented in combat oriented scenarios are usually firmly attached to a particular background (or at least country), and need at least a little bit of tweaking by individual GMs.

 

Anyway, you've raised some interesting questions here, which intersect with some things that have been going through my mind. Thanks...

 

Alan

[assault]

I've thought about this some more.

 

Something that might be useful would be a how-to guide to campaign design. Essentially, what it would do would be to show how to start with a couple of PCs, and build up a world around them.

 

This would entail taking their Hunteds, DNPCs, Contacts, Favours, as well as their origin stories, and developing them into well-rounded characters, organisations and locations that the PCs can interact with, and which can serve as plot seeds, people to fight or protect, and places that can be fought in or protected. Places like the PCs homes, workplaces, bases and favourite hangouts could be developed, as well as the places where the various NPCs can be found. For example, a "street" contact might be found in a certain bar, so, of course, you want some details about the bar. (Obligatory Daredevil fight scene...)

 

The book would thus show how to do this, while, of course, providing some examples to act as a library that can be borrowed from by less experienced/motivated/energetic GMs.

 

There could also be a discussion of the implications of certain disadvantages. One thing that has been bugging me of late is the handling of Hunteds. As you get more PCs in a game, you start getting more and more Hunteds, as well as duplication of them. Each of them has to be developed, and each of them has to show up at some point, and each of them, ultimately, has to be a key element of a scenario. With enough Hunteds around, the basic course of the entire campaign becomes set. That's fine, but it means that the GM has to think about what is going on while the players are generating their characters. This kind of stuff isn't necessarily going to occur to relatively inexperienced GMs.

 

And then, of course, you do need some sample scenarios, hooking the various bits and pieces together, and providing examples of how to bring the PCs together into a team, and all that kind of thing. Preferably, as well, the scenarios should be both easy to run and interesting. (I have to say that I didn't consider the sample scenarios in 4th Ed Champions particularly interesting.)

 

So I guess what I am suggesting is a "how-to" book that would also act as a bit of a sourcebook on some NPC heroes and their world, and a library of other NPCs and locations.

 

Of course, while all of this should be self-contained, it should be able to be expanded by other books like Millennium City, VIPER, CKC, and probably some equivalent of Normals Unbound. (Ah, that's another hint there, isn't it?)

 

Alan

[mrswing]

This 'how to create a campaign'-idea is quite interesting too. If done well it would be both a very viable game background for people to start playing in and an example for GMs (and players) on how to create a world/well-rounded character.

 

If one really pitches this at beginners, the first adventure could even be an origin issue, using all the elements of the sourcebook part of the book to create richer adventures than generally possible in superhero gaming.

 

Another thought : if one were to do this in a 128-page book, then there could be four different hero types/campaign flavours (acrobatic vigilante-detective, rampaging brick, high-tech hero and mystic master, for example, or alien champion of justice, misunderstood mutant, mirthful mercenary, troubled teen... oops, seems like I'm channeling too much of Stan Lee there).

 

If such a project wasn't dual-stat, I would definitely tie it into the main setting of the game (CU-Millenium City). As such that would help make that setting even more alive to GM and player and enhance compatibility with later products.

[djday38]

While we are on the subject of iconic heroes, who do you think the Spider-Man type of the CU is or was?

 

From the little we know from the information given so far I think the teenage hero the Hornet (not the modern villain) best fits the role.

 

hopefuuly we will eventually see him in all his glory in DH.

 

anyone else?

 

rgds

Dean

[mrswing]

I don't think there ever really was an iconic CU Spider-man - and no iconic Superman either. Both great oversights IMO...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by mrswing

I don't think there ever really was an iconic CU Spider-man - and no iconic Superman either. Both great oversights IMO...

I think DJDay38 is correct about Hornet. He clearly fills the role of the 60's Spider-man. I would think that Superman is actually Captain Patriot, with a degree of Captain America thrown in as well. Captain Patriot's write-up reminds me quite of bit of the 30's Superman. Considering how much we do not know about the other 165 Heroes on the list it is very possible that Superman is within that group even as we speak.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by mrswing

I don't think there ever really was an iconic CU Spider-man - and no iconic Superman either. Both great oversights IMO...

 

I can't recall a Spider-Man type written up in the CU, but they did come close to a Supeman figure with Captain Australia, mentioned on the 4E Champions Universe supplement and written up in the first Hero System Almanac. Essentially a flying brick with high Speed and enhanced senses - pretty tough, although not really in Superman's league. OTOH, Viperia (from the VIPER sourcebook) was very obviously an anti-Supergirl, with a whole suite of "Kryptonian"-style powers. Now Crusader was clearly the CU Batman, especially after his rewrite as a Dark Champions character in Underworld Enemies.

 

As far as assault and mr. swing's concept of a "campaign building" book, some of what they're suggesting reminds me of Aaron Allston's Strike Force, which shows the growth and development of his personal campaign and the real-life events which it reflected. I'm not sure that the kind of book you're proposing, interesting as it sounds, would have wide appeal, though. A great deal of the practical advice you're asking for can be found in the Champions genre book, while much of the appeal of Strike Force comes from the personal touch of being allowed to look beneath the reality of the campaign world. I fear that the focus might be a bit too narrow.

[djday38]

Yes, Captain Patriot does feel like a golden age hybrid of Cap and Supes, although he would be much too low in power level for my taste to represent the modern version of Superman.

Again like yourself I have on idea which hero this would be if any from the info thus far provided.

 

Th All American feels like the modern cap to me, while others that spring to mind would be Meteor Man 3, being the clear Green Lantern type. I especially like the legacy involved with the character, it was a nice touch.

 

Others would be the Fab Five equalling the Fantastic Four, and Nighthawk being Batman, although i would like to see him powered up if that were the case, hmm maybe he more represents Nightwing and we have yet to see an older more experianced scarey Batman type, maybe when Dark Champions comes out?

 

anyone else have any guesses? this is turning out to be fun!

 

rgds

Dean