Is there going to be a heroes book?

[djday38]

I was wondering if there is going to be a book for heroes along the same lines as CKC or will they be expanded on only in Digital Hero, as they have been so far.

 

Myself, I would love to see a book like this as I feel Champions in the past has never matched it's fnatastic villains with equally intresting and powerful heroes, so we have been left with half a universe in effect.

for example we have our Ulton type but no Hank Pym.

We have our Joker but no Batman, We have our Dr. Doom but no FF, etc, etc.

 

Know i know this has got a lot beter with 5th edition as many more heroes are being both written up for use and mentioned.

 

I was just wondering what the plans (if any) are on this as I could certainly use the knowledge of who the best of the best are and were during the different times.

 

I would like eventually powerful and popular heroes for all the classic "types". It would be very easy to change individuals if they strayed too close to PC heroes, so avoid any toe treading.

 

anyone else curious about this? Who is the champions universe equivelent of Superman? Wonder Woman? Aquaman? Captain America? Thor? Spider-Man?

 

rgds

Dean

[Steve Long]

We have no particular plans for a book like that at this time. I really don't think it's of as much interest or use to the average gamer as a book of villains or many other books we could produce. It's more likely that we'll include NPC heroes in various setting books and the like as seems appropriate.

 

But you never know. Maybe we'll change our minds and toss a heroes book on the schedule at some point.

[Storn]

To back Steve up on this one, I remember the ol' ICE and Hero folk mentioning that 4th ed Allies was one of the worst sellers for them. Now, I have no numbers to back up that claim, but both ICE and Hero folk mentioned it to me back in the day.

[SKJAM!]

Allies

 

This was pretty much my thought, too, when I proposed Allies, yea, these many years ago.

 

But there are some caveats: the player characters should be the center of the campaign, if not necessarily the campaign world. If there are heroes more powerful or capable than the PCs, there should be a reason why they aren't doing the job that the PCs are handling. And NPC heroes that are more interesting to the GM than the PCs are right out.

 

I was specifically asked by the Hero editors of the time to include plenty of reasons why the characters in Allies would come into conflict with PC heroes. Most of the material from that supplement should be easily updatable to 5th Edition.

 

Some thoughts: which NPC heroes are suitable depends on the function of the player characters' group. If the PCs are a gritty street-level team, then someone else is handling the cosmic-level threats to life as we know it. On the other hand, if the PCs are the world's finest heroes, then NPC heroes are better done as local protectors or specialized crimefighters. ("You may be hot stuff against land criminals, but if the crooks are underwater, then I, Fishmaster, am the one to call.")

 

One option I've seen good reviews for is the "guest hero", someone with a very straightforward set of powers (to make for a simpler character sheet) who during most game sessions is busy with his own affairs, but when a new player drops by, is available to help out. (This saves time for not having to teach the creation rules to a newbie the first game session.)

 

For what it's worth,

SKJAM!

[Guest Worldmaker]

Other than giving the players yet another set of antagonists, one use for such a book would be "instant player characters". I know lots of Champions players for whom writing up a character is the least favorite part of the gaming experience.

[BobGreenwade]

I'm sorry to hear that Allies was such a poor seller. I have the book, and while it did have its weaknesses it also had some pretty cool ideas in it.

 

Its main weakness, I think, was the lack of "flow" -- it didn't have a unified idea, from one mind making sure that all the needed parts were covered. It was less a book of allies than a book of heroic enemies -- the "let the PCs come into conflict with these heroes" part was overdone, to the detriment of all other possibilities.

 

A book of heroes, I think, should include the following functions (in no particular order):

 

1) Heroic NPCs for the PCs to come into conflict with, for a variety of reasons. Zen Team, the Braverman Foundation, and particularly the Posse did this quite well. A different type of conflict was presented with the Flashmen, who were done quite brilliantly IMO.

 

2) Experts for the PCs to consult when they don't have any expertise in a particular area. There was some of this in Executive Sanction, the Cyberknights, and Mr Nobody, but it needed to be more prevalent and brought out a bit more when it's present. The possibility of learning stuff from them (that is, using NPC heroes as a source for learning new Skills) is also good.

 

3) "Instant PCs" for visiting gamers, first-timers, and last-minute drop-ins. These would almost have to be independent heroes, rather than team members. The only ones I'd consider even close to good for this would be Long Walker and maybe Interference -- though both are built on different point totals than a standard beginning PC.

 

4) Heroes to pull the PCs' fat out of the fire when they get in over their heads. It's been said many times that this should be minimized, though there are ways to soften the "blow" and make them not feel like screw-ups ("We've been trying for months to get this far. In a way, it's us who should be thanking you!"). And don't forget the reverse option, of NPC heroes who get in over their heads (as in V.O.I.C.E. of Doom or {To Serve And Protect) and need help from the PCs.

 

5) Plot seeds from individual NPC heroes, even those who are members of a team. The new version of the Champions handles this quite well.

 

Let's see... what else?

[Monolith]

I want an allies book as much as the next person, maybe even more, but I do think that DOJ has done a fairly good job of giving us NPC heroes so far. We currently have write-ups for 19 NPC heroes (this does not includes Silver Avenger Sanchez) out of some 185 named heroes in the Champions Universe. That is something like 10%, which does not seem too bad for only having that information from 3 books.

 

Digital Hero just published the write-ups for the 50's-70's Fabulous Five and I understand that the Sentinels are next on the list. So all things considered I think the write-ups are coming out at a fairly good speed and there are plenty of NPC heroes to give to a new or unexpected player during a game session.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Worldmaker

Other than giving the players yet another set of antagonists, one use for such a book would be "injstant player characters". I know lots of Champions players for whom writing up a character is the least favorite part of the gaming experience.

I think this might be workable if it was expanded a bit. I think a book of "cut-n-paste" characters could be useful if each character included all of the following:

• A detailed background set in the Champions Universe, allowing you to use the character in that setting if desired.
  
• A basic background that's not plugged into the Champions Universe, making it easier to use the character in a different campaign or as a "bare-bones" character intended to be fleshed out more by the end user.
  
• A "Hero Option," an "Anti-Hero/Sympathetic Villain Option," and a "Villain Option," offering suggestions on how to use the character in each of those three niches.
  
• Make all of the characters exactly 350 points, but include notes on increasing or decreasing the power level.

The ultimate goal of this would be to create a book of plug-n-play characters that could be used as NPC heroes, starting PCs, or adversaries, and could be plugged into the Champions Universe or left stand-alone.

 

This kind of product might make a good ebook. PDF publication would keep it from diluting the focus on the Champions Universe in the published books, and make it easy to print out just the character sheets needed for use in game play, etc.

[djday38]

Surely not all products with a large percentage of heroes have been poor sellers? both "To Serve and Protect" and "V.O.I.C.E" had whole npc hero teams included and are pretty fondly regarded adventures and characters.

 

Lets not forget the mythical "Strike Force" campaign book which had a very large number of heroes detailed, so I think it depends on the product.

Green Ronin's "Freedom City" has many heroes I have heard (not bought it yet) and is supposedly seling very well.

 

I jus tthink depending on the execution "hero" books could be very popular.

 

rgds

Dean

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by djday38

Surely not all products with a large percentage of heroes have been poor sellers? both "To Serve and Protect" and "V.O.I.C.E" had whole npc hero teams included and are pretty fondly regarded adventures and characters.

 

Green Ronin's "Freedom City" has many heroes I have heard (not bought it yet) and is supposedly seling very well.

 

I jus tthink depending on the execution "hero" books could be very popular.

 

To Serve and Protect & VOICE (two of my all time favorites)were adventures rather than an sourcebooks, which made them cheaper and you also got a villain/villain team to boot. Sourcebooks as a rule are more expensive, and sometimes that limits who purchases them.

 

Freedom City does present quite a few heroes, all with a villain option, which is like getting two characters for the price of one. If the DOJ were to do a 5th Allies, perhaps they would consider this as well, since it would give more bang for the buck. Personally, I would rather see a Champions Worldwide suppliment, featuring heroes and villains from different countries, before a straight Allies suppliment.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Storn

To back Steve up on this one, I remember the ol' ICE and Hero folk mentioning that 4th ed Allies was one of the worst sellers for them. Now, I have no numbers to back up that claim, but both ICE and Hero folk mentioned it to me back in the day.

That may have something to do with the content of the Allies book. It seemed that Hero was so concerned about overshadowing the players that they made NPCs who would prove to be of little use in introduction unless the Ref wanted to work hard at it - and some of the ideas were way out in left field. I pretty much use Executive Sanction and the Zen Team, that's about it.

[Hermit]

As for Allies, I actually bought it. I got the most use out of the Flashmen (Who the PCs grew to hate *S* When they exposed them, they cheered), but I personally 'liked' the Cyberknights best. A theme team that was very detailed. Zen Team was a close third, lots of fun.

 

I don't know if another Allies type book would sell or not given the rumored poor sales of the 4th Ed one. Perhaps an E-Book would be better?

[Jhamin]

I agree with the assessment that the problem with Allies was that most of these guys had such problems to prevent them from being too good that they ended up not being very good allies.

 

3/4 of them were basically villians or uninvolved supers with good PR. That was my biggest disappointment with them.

 

I got alot of mileage out to the Cyberknights as a fellow team of heroes that would show up from time to time in "Secret Wars" or "Crisis" type adventures.

 

Zen was good, I just never got around to using them.

[TechnoViking]

I think sourcebooks that features heros only is a bad idea, but a team book would work. Look how popular Strike Force and To Serve and Protect are. I think Strike Force is one of the most collectable Hero books.

 

My suggestions would be:

- A international super team similar to GURPS I.S.T. (Gurps Supers was bad, but I.S.T. was a nice sourcebook. Maybe could be a series covering the Champions Universe in different parts of the world (maybe we will finally see Champions "Far East" sourcebook).

 

- A team book in the vein of JLA or The Avengers. I would make this a higher power level book, and maybe outside the current CU. Although Reality Storm covers is very similar to this.

 

- Pay Aaron Alliston to re-do Strike Force for FREd. I know is it a pipe dream, but so was 5th edition for many years .

 

- Also, when Galactic Champions comes out I hope to see a Legion tribute group in it.

 

Mike

[AnotherSkip]

Whaaddaya think they are going to do with the Name that Hero Contest?

 

seems like a shoo in idear for me!

[Monolith]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Whaaddaya think they are going to do with the Name that Hero Contest?

 

seems like a shoo in idear for me!

That is a very good point. Between the 7 characters from the contest and Eagle-Eye and Taurus, who are now officially part of the CU, that is 9 NPC heroes who are just perfect to be introductory or fill-in heroes for new players.

[AnotherSkip]

And with a bit of tweaking you could take the "losers" and have them as rivals.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger

- Pay Aaron Alliston to re-do Strike Force for FREd. I know is it a pipe dream, but so was 5th edition for many years

I know this may seem strange but I have to wonder how well Strike Force really did sell. Almost everyone I know who has it loves it, but it seems like Aaron was still selling copies of it on his website up until DOJ started publishing 5th Edition. It would seem that either the book did not sell that well or ICE vastly overprinted it.

[Enforcer84]

I've got Strike Force, Serve and Protect, and I had Allies but it got lost in the move from college(and I'd like it back).

 

I found the "team books" to be the most sought after books from the "Comic License" games, DC & Marvel, but the CU lacks that kind of backdrop. However, I really think a book detailing some of the heroes of the CU, along with their rogues gallery if they haven't been written up already, perhaps broken down by archetype or team would be a welcome product.

I gotta tell you, I loved Watchers of the Dragon, the 3 main Enemies Books, Allies, Strike Force, Villany Unbound, VIPER, Classic ORganizations...etc. I really like seeing the Universe fleshed out more and more in an official manner, it makes it easier for me to insert my creations if I know who the Sentinals are, were, and may yet be.

[Hermit]

I think the UNTIL book , when it comes out, will have the write up for the UNITY Team. While Vibora Bay is said to have no official team (Which maybe a good thing, since some[Not I] complain about the Champions in MC), it will have some NPC heroes and villains as well.

 

I think we'll be getting what we want bit by bit. I wouldn't mind seeing up a write up of some of the teams mentioned in previous works... the Justice Squadron etc, but it's probably best as part of an adventure.

[djday38]

While region books might be the way to go, I would have liked to see a real CKC treatment for the iconic heroes of the champions universe.

 

As we got the main master villains and teams in the CKC, it would be nice to see the iconic heroes who define the universe. these would be the guys with their own long running comic books and the popular hero teams of the CU.

 

With most campaigns going with the 350 point limit, there is a lot of scope for the more established powerful heroes to be used again and again in a campaign.

 

But if each hero comes with a villain option, we have the best of both worlds.

 

rgds

Dean

[SKJAM!]

Allies

 

Well, I'm certainly glad to see that some of you (many of you?) enjoyed Allies, even if it didn't sell very well. It's interesting to see different people's reactions to the various concepts.

 

Unfortunately, since I signed away the rights to the characters when I accepted the contract, I am given to understand that I can't put updated versions of them up here on the bulletin board. And since there are no plans to reuse any of the characters, that leaves them in limbo....

 

But hey, if Allies didn't sell well, that means there should still be cheap stockpiles of them in various game stores' back rooms.

 

For what it's worth,

SKJAM!

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit

As for Allies, I actually bought it. I got the most use out of the Flashmen (Who the PCs grew to hate *S* When they exposed them, they cheered), but I personally 'liked' the Cyberknights best. A theme team that was very detailed. Zen Team was a close third, lots of fun.

 

I don't know if another Allies type book would sell or not given the rumored poor sales of the 4th Ed one. Perhaps an E-Book would be better?

I forgot about the Cyberknights. With a little tweaking they're cool.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

I know this may seem strange but I have to wonder how well Strike Force really did sell. Almost everyone I know who has it loves it, but it seems like Aaron was still selling copies of it on his website up until DOJ started publishing 5th Edition. It would seem that either the book did not sell that well or ICE vastly overprinted it.

If it was vastly overprinted they all landed somewhere far away from me. I have one friend with a copy and I, sadly, have never found one.

[djday38]

Team books much like the old organisation books and the upcoming versions of viper and UNTIL would be cool.

 

As previously said you could go through the various membership roster changes of a team like the Sentinels for example then give their rogues gallery in all it's glory.

 

Finish of with a more detailed history and plot seeds and it would be a nice product.

 

You could do the same for the solo lone wolf heroes.

 

that reminds me of a small gripe about the Champions. For a suposedly new team on the block why are they mentioned as hunters for so many villains?

If would be nice to spread this around the existing hero teams a lot more, so we have a better idea which villains are part of which teams rogues gallery, at the moment it looks like the Champions take on everybody and all the others sit at home watching tv!

 

A more distinct team and villain pattern would be better as we have in the comics with Kang & Ultron hunted by The Avengers, Dr. Doom hunted by the FF, Magneto by the X-Men and so on.

 

Sorry to go on about it but it makes the CU seem smaller and less realistic somehow.

 

rgds

Dean