SPD, but only for (x)?

[Anatosuchus]

Hi Chaps,

 

Something of a noob question, I'm sure.

 

I'm trying to write up a survivalist who has a normal SPD of 3, but who has spent quite some time training with firearms (of course). The net result is that I want him to be relatively normal in most (combat) situations, but I want him to be able to aim and fire a little more rapidly dou to his specialism.

 

It seems that a SPD+1, only for firearms might be one way of doing this, but that means I have to decide at the beginning of each turn whether our man is going to spend that entire turn doing "gun stuff" or "other stuff" which seems odd.

 

I suspect there might be a more elegant way of doing what I want to do, so I ask the board for some opinions. Thanks in advance!

 

EDIT: Clarification - this is for a heroic level game and the cahracter in question is a relatively "normal" NPC.

[Alibear]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

If you realy want extra speed for this you could buy it as a duplicate with various limitaions to simulate extra speed only with firearms.

 

or

 

Buy extra speed as you describe but always buy what you have already so your phases don't change you just add to them.

 

e.g. if you have two speed buy another two speed only to use guns (-0.5)

 

On phase twelve you would go normally.

 

On 3 you could only use a firearm. shoot, reload, whatever.

 

On 6 you go again and can dodge, half move and shoot, whatever you like.

 

On phase 9 you can shoot.

 

 

If you change from 3 speed to 5 speed for firearms you'll be in trouble.

 

 

EDIT: I just read your edit so I would suggest 2 speed for him.

Then buy +2 speed only to use firearms, -0.5. 13 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

I would generaly allow such characters to be defined with specifc phases available. For a 3 SPD, +1 only for firearms, I would allow him to move normally on ph 4, 8 and 12 if he doesn't use the Firearms Only phase, and allow a normal move on 4, 9 and 12, and firearms only on 6, if he uses a firearm on 6.

[Anatosuchus]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Ah, I think you've answered my unspoken question - "is it OK to monkey about with allowed phases within a given turn?" and the answer is "well, we would."

 

I shall go with that in the event it comes up. Thanks!

[Blue]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Well, if you're the GM, anything is ok.

 

I seem to recall voluntarily reducing SPD is an optional rule. But that you can't increase it during the turn; Only post segment 12. But as I said, it's you're game, which means all rules are optional.

 

The trick with doing SPD "only for doing X" is that sometimes you want to do something else during a turn; SO how do you ajudicate thate?

 

If I want to represent someone who shoots very fast, I lean toward using some form of autofire.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

One of the things I hope The Ultimate Speedster covers is a more elegant way to handle the whole "extra SPD, only for 'x'" concept...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Extra Speed Only for X is something Ive allowed a few times and always regretted. I no longer will allow it. It causes far too many problems.

 

If you do a board search this subject has been discussed previously.

[Anatosuchus]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

If you do a board search this subject has been discussed previously.

Yeah, but for some reason whenever I do a search on this board I always get a bazillion results. I can't seem to put queries together which give sensible results. Not a problem I get elsewhere - I think it's a combination of the fact that there are very commonly used system terms and no boolean operators in the search functions.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

I agree with KS. Extra Speed only for X is very wonky at best.

 

Anyway, the example sfx being described (faster at shooting a gun) is probably better served by a naked auto-fire advantage or levels to offset OCV penalties from using Rapid Attack(? I don't have 5er in front of me, but I am referring to the optional but free ranged 'sweep' maneuver).

 

Extra Speed gives extra REactions not just actions.

 

HM

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

There are a veritable TON of gunbunny tricks that can be pulled to increase the effectiveness of a serious gunfighter in this system. In a Heroic level game, the most obvious immediate option to me to increase the firepower is quite simple... add on some levels with Rapid Fire. Take Rapid Attack, ranged. Add, to taste, Extra DCV levels when Rapid Firing (to counteract the DCV penalty), Autofire Skills (For improved full auto goodness, if thats your style), Two Weapon Fighting (For classic John Woo style Gun-fu), Penalty Skill levels (Targeting levels, to put your bullets where you want, or Range, to hit at a distance), and/or Deadly Blow (A talent you may not have the write up for... it appears in several of the genre books) adjsted to fit your style. Sniper? Deadly Blow, only with Suprise attacks. Dead shot with a pistol? Deadly blow, pistols. expert at finding justthe right spot to shoot? Deadly Blow, Requires a Skill Roll (Gun Tricks).

 

More exotic approaches include naked advantages. Derek mentioned the most obvious one. Autofire. Buying Autofire, 3 shots, as a naked advantage on 60 active points worth of Firearm RKA will cost you a base of 15 points, and can be worked down to 5 points pretty easily. A more expensive option is Selective Area of Effect, limited so that you have to spend a bullet on each attack in the area. This allows for potentially very high rates of fire when attacking a bunch of thugs. We're getting into the territory covered by the movie Equilibrium here.

 

Speaking of Equilibirium.... Ranged Martial Arts are also a possibility.

 

I'd suggest picking up a copy of Dark Champions... it is THE sourcebook for this kind of stuff. Don't be fooled by the name either... its geared towards Heroic level games at least as much if not moreso than it's aimed at superheros.

 

As you can probably tell, the over the top gunbunny is one of my favorite archtypes.

[Anatosuchus]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Hyper-Man, it looks like you are referring to Rapid Fire, and some penalty skill levels to offset the OCV modifier. As mentioned by KS and others above, this looks like a better way than mangling the speed system.

 

Plenty of info from ANB there! I actually have Dark Champions but trying to avoid being to OTT was tricky. Plus I have so much HERO stuff finding anything specific can be a problem!

 

Given the end result is for this chap to be a useful ally for the hopelessly non-combat characters against the planned ZOMBIE HORDE, I think I'll go for something along the lines of a bunch of penalty skill levels against rapid fire and called hit locations. Deadly blow is great normally, but these particular bad guys are going to need head shots!

[Greg]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Is this really any different than Grond who can make an activation roll to attack with his extra arms on an extra phase or 2? I'm not in front of my book, but maybe somebody could reference that.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

What is the point range?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Hyper-Man, it looks like you are referring to Rapid Fire, and some penalty skill levels to offset the OCV modifier. As mentioned by KS and others above, this looks like a better way than mangling the speed system.

 

Plenty of info from ANB there! I actually have Dark Champions but trying to avoid being to OTT was tricky. Plus I have so much HERO stuff finding anything specific can be a problem!

 

Given the end result is for this chap to be a useful ally for the hopelessly non-combat characters against the planned ZOMBIE HORDE, I think I'll go for something along the lines of a bunch of penalty skill levels against rapid fire and called hit locations. Deadly blow is great normally, but these particular bad guys are going to need head shots!

Dude!

You just said a couple of my favorite words...

Zombie Horde!

Yeah, sounds like Rapid Fire levels and Targeting PSL's are the best option. I'd leave the rest alone, thought I'd probably add in Rapid Attack so he can rapid fire and still half move... it'd let him pull off an occasional rescue or rearguard action with gun(s) a-blazing.

 

Good luck with the game. Done right, I think that Zombie Survival Hero is one of the better beer & pretzels Hero genres out there.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

I agree with KS. Extra Speed only for X is very wonky at best.

True' date=' but I think the wonkiness is due to the way the system handles it... not due to anything innately wonky in the concept. That's why I hope [b']The Ultimate Speedster[/b] will introduce a de-wonkified approach to the issue.

[pinecone]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

I'm late to the party ...but I'd go with Rapid attack, fast draw for reloading and anything more depending on just how super human you want him to be....a dude that is really good with a gun Can just be 2-3 levels afterall....

[RDU Neil]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Extra Speed Only for X is something Ive allowed a few times and always regretted. I no longer will allow it. It causes far too many problems.

 

If you do a board search this subject has been discussed previously.

 

 

I'd have to agree to at least be very careful with this SPD only to do X.

 

 

Here is my reasons... KS may have different ones.

 

- SPD indicates how often your charcter "does stuff."

- Many characters have a limited number of things they can do, simply by the nature of who and what they are (especially in combat situations)

- Limiting SPD to only certain things OFTEN can result in "Limited to do only those things I'd be doing anyway, but now I get more chances to do it!"

 

Example: You are playing an Energy Blaster. While they can do lots of other stuff, their primary attack is blasting people. So, they buy "Extra Speed, only to blast people!" From one perspective, that extra SPD is less functional and thus makes sense to be cheaper. From a holistic POV, though... the overall character has just become much more flexible and powerful... often for very few points.

 

YMMV, but I would just note that SPD (IMO) is extremely cheap already for the guaranteed extra action it gives you. Reducing that cost even more can have unbalancing repercussions, depending the on the game and the players.

 

Good luck.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

The contextual effect that RDU Neil notes is part of my dislike for limited SPD, but the main reason I don't like it is that it does strange things when characters start Aborting to defensive Actions and holding Actions. There is also the question of layering and concurrency. And finally the entire concept introduces a metagame consideration that is effectively observable in character.

 

For instance, say you have a character with a 4 SPD normally and +2 SPD only to do X.

 

4 SPD goes in 3,6,9,12

6 SPD goes in 2,4,6,8,10,12

 

Now we have to make several decisions here:

 

A) Which Phases are the "Only to do X" Phases?

 

If its 2 & 8 then the character can't move physically until 4, so they are effectively slightly LESS quick than other characters for doing normal things going in 4,6,10,12. This can also put the character at a disadvantage in 3 and 9 and could in fact force them to have to Abort to defense vs other SPD 4 characters that normally they might go before (if their DEX were higher).

 

If its 4 & 10 then the character is slightly faster on the uptake than other 4 SPD characters, going in 2,6,8,12. This could give the character an edge vs other 4 SPD characters by making them use their 3 and 9 Actions to react to this character's Phases in 2 and 8.

 

What happens if the character holds a normal Phase into a later Segment and collides with a Only to do X Phase?

 

Do they adhere to the normal rule that a held action is lost if not taken before the character's next Phase comes up?

 

Or do you apply common sense and they lose the Only to do X Phase but continue to hold their normal non-limited Phase?

 

C) What happens if the character has to Abort their next action to a Dodge, Block, D4C, Roll w/ Punch, to turn on a defense, or similar? So in our example, if the character has to Abort in Segment 3 for instance.

 

Do you say that the Only to do X Phase can't be used for this (unless the Only to do X was specifically Only to Dodge or what have you), so the character looses that Action and Aborts their next non-limited Action?

 

Or do you say that the Abort rule trumps all other considerations and the character can use their limited Actions for such?

 

D) How do you explain the in game / in character effect that sometimes the character can move around and do whatever, possibly in conjunction with X -- for instance if it were SPD Only To Shoot Energy Blast then character could normally 1/2 Move and shoot in some Phases, but in other Phases could only shoot. This is an observable behavior to other characters in the setting and really just doesnt make sense normally. It breaks the 4th wall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

The contextual effect that RDU Neil notes is part of my dislike for limited SPD, but the main reason I don't like it is that it does strange things when characters start Aborting to defensive Actions and holding Actions. There is also the question of layering and concurrency. And finally the entire concept introduces a metagame consideration that is effectively observable in character.

 

For instance, say you have a character with a 4 SPD normally and +2 SPD only to do X.

 

4 SPD goes in 3,6,9,12

6 SPD goes in 2,4,6,8,10,12

 

Now we have to make several decisions here:

 

A) Which Phases are the "Only to do X" Phases?

 

If its 2 & 8 then the character can't move physically until 4, so they are effectively slightly LESS quick than other characters for doing normal things going in 4,6,10,12. This can also put the character at a disadvantage in 3 and 9 and could in fact force them to have to Abort to defense vs other SPD 4 characters that normally they might go before (if their DEX were higher).

 

If its 4 & 10 then the character is slightly faster on the uptake than other 4 SPD characters, going in 2,6,8,12. This could give the character an edge vs other 4 SPD characters by making them use their 3 and 9 Actions to react to this character's Phases in 2 and 8.

 

We could adust their personal SPD chart to allow them to move normally on 3,6,9,12 and receive phases 4 and 10 for their extra actions. I think it's an issue that needs to be worked out with the GM, but not an unworkable issue. Note that this means they have two phases deferred one segment from the typical 6 SPD character - that delay is part of the limitation, and I would want to see phases delayed, not accelerated, to make this work.

 

What happens if the character holds a normal Phase into a later Segment and collides with a Only to do X Phase?

 

Do they adhere to the normal rule that a held action is lost if not taken before the character's next Phase comes up?

 

Or do you apply common sense and they lose the Only to do X Phase but continue to hold their normal non-limited Phase?

 

I would apply the latter. If you don't use the "only to do X" phase to do X, you don't get the phase, so it's like that phase does not exist.

 

C) What happens if the character has to Abort their next action to a Dodge, Block, D4C, Roll w/ Punch, to turn on a defense, or similar? So in our example, if the character has to Abort in Segment 3 for instance.

 

Do you say that the Only to do X Phase can't be used for this (unless the Only to do X was specifically Only to Dodge or what have you), so the character looses that Action and Aborts their next non-limited Action?

 

Or do you say that the Abort rule trumps all other considerations and the character can use their limited Actions for such?

 

As the character has chosen to abort to an action he can't carry out in his "Only vs X" phase, that phase ceases to exist and he has aborted his next unlimited phase.

 

D) How do you explain the in game / in character effect that sometimes the character can move around and do whatever' date=' possibly in conjunction with X -- for instance if it were SPD Only To Shoot Energy Blast then character could normally 1/2 Move and shoot in some Phases, but in other Phases could only shoot. This is an observable behavior to other characters in the setting and really just doesnt make sense normally. It breaks the 4th wall.[/quote']

 

How do you explain that he can fly 10" and then fire his energy blast in a single unrestructed phase, but he can't fire his energy blast and then fly 10" in a single unrestricted phase? The system imposes some irrationalities which players can observe.

[Egyptoid]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

We use this one all the time:

 

like Speed 4, plus 4 more speed only for Martial Arts.

 

Speed 3, plus 3 more speed for Gadget Powers only.

 

the trick seems to make it as symmetrical as possible.

 

4 and 10 would seem to be the logical choices

for SPD4 + 2 to Do X.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Its not a matter of whether or not it can be worked thru, its a matter of whether or not the mechanical issues it raises are worth the effort.

 

For instance, I could add another axle to my car and turn it into a 6 wheeler. Its really more of a matter of is the extra issues it raises and the effort involved to do so worth it. I would say no.

[Dust Raven]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

If you realy want extra speed for this you could buy it as a duplicate with various limitaions to simulate extra speed only with firearms.

While I'm originally of the school of 2 SPD + 2 SPD Only For X, I really like the Duplication idea. The duplicate shouldn't cost that much really. You can buy the Duplicate with Cannot Recombine (-0) Feedback (-1). It's up the the GM is you can buy the Duplicate with a Limitation "Duplicate Can Only Take Actions Involving Guns" and I'd have no idea what the value would be. Otherwise, it could be a Physical Limitation on the Duplicate. If the Duplicate is only bought with the same STUN, BODY, Defenses, etc. but no Skills or other aspects of the character, it might not be worth a Limitation at all (and I'd recomend building it that way).

 

What this does is give the base character all his normal actions, and then whenever the Duplicate wishes to or can, he makes his own actions using a gun. Depending on the SPD of the Duplicate (which may be less than the base character) it can take actions such as firing the gun whenever it likes, perhaps even on a segment the base character acts. This creates all kinds of fun super gunman tricks, such as firing accuratly while running a full speed (combat, not non-combat) or fireing off multiple shots without sacrificing DCV.

 

What's more, it's likely to cost about the same as buying extra SPD and it's easier to adjucate the actions of the character.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

While I'm originally of the school of 2 SPD + 2 SPD Only For X, I really like the Duplication idea. The duplicate shouldn't cost that much really. You can buy the Duplicate with Cannot Recombine (-0) Feedback (-1). It's up the the GM is you can buy the Duplicate with a Limitation "Duplicate Can Only Take Actions Involving Guns" and I'd have no idea what the value would be. Otherwise, it could be a Physical Limitation on the Duplicate. If the Duplicate is only bought with the same STUN, BODY, Defenses, etc. but no Skills or other aspects of the character, it might not be worth a Limitation at all (and I'd recomend building it that way).

 

What this does is give the base character all his normal actions, and then whenever the Duplicate wishes to or can, he makes his own actions using a gun. Depending on the SPD of the Duplicate (which may be less than the base character) it can take actions such as firing the gun whenever it likes, perhaps even on a segment the base character acts. This creates all kinds of fun super gunman tricks, such as firing accuratly while running a full speed (combat, not non-combat) or fireing off multiple shots without sacrificing DCV.

 

What's more, it's likely to cost about the same as buying extra SPD and it's easier to adjucate the actions of the character.

 

 

Here is a character that uses the basic idea of a doesnt-really-exist duplicate to take asynchronous actions:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/Blackjack.HTML

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/CharacterFiles/Blackjack%20Luck%20Form.html

[bigdamnhero]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

Is this really any different than Grond who can make an activation roll to attack with his extra arms on an extra phase or 2? I'm not in front of my book' date=' but maybe somebody could reference that.[/quote']

According to the CKC write-up for Grond:

Four-Armed Combat:

+2 SPD (20 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), Only To Punch (-1), Costs Endurance (-1/2)

The text specifies that the GM makes the activation roll at the begining of each turn to determine whether or not Grond gets 2 extra phases to punch in.

 

That said, I tend to agree with RDUNeail that "Extra SPD, Only To Do My Primary Attack" isn't really much of a limitation. (And allowing Cost END as a limitation when punching should cost End normally anyway is doubly questionable IMO.) Two extra 18d6 attacks for 6 points isn't what I'd call balanced. If a player came to me with this write up, I'd probably veto it.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: SPD, but only for (x)?

 

This isn't something that has come up in any character I have ever played or GMed but I did once design a character once where he had a time device that would allow him to slow time for everyone else once in a while(essentially giving him an extra action per turn, but only if he activated the device - it was ancient mind activated technology that he could barely control).

 

I discussed it at length with the GM and came up with the following.

 

+1 SPD - activate 11- (-1), can be taken any time during a turn (x2) whcih meant my extra SPD came in at 15 points. That seemed fair as it had to be activated but I could use it at any time.

 

I think that I would, in future, build in the 'can be used at any time during a turn to any extra SPD, it takes away the problems of a highly structured SPD chart.

 

 

Doc