Greg Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Wait...if the money was going to some sort of orbital laser then I'd be all about pre-ordering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroTina Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Do I have to supply the crayons? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Re: C25 deposit I don't think anyone thinks you're doing it for any reason other than to cover your asses... we just kinda think it's one step beyond necessary. A simple "if it doesn't get published' date=' our liability will be limited to refunding the deposit and no more" would work as well to prevent people from suing over it, and would make the 99.99999999% of people who wouldn't even dream of suing you over it a lot more comfortable. *shrug*[/quote'] Yeah. It's just not an agreement I would (or will) enter into. Those who feel comfortable with the situation, go for it. And I'm not criticising DOJ's business practices in general by any means. I just don't like the looks of this particular issue. Not that I'm suggesting they change things for me; I'm only a customer, not a lawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted May 4, 2006 Report Share Posted May 4, 2006 Re: C25 deposit :D Nice, Tina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted May 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit I am sure that, in a short time, C25 will be on the shelf. I just thought it was an odd, not-consumer-friendly sort of approach. And as I wrote previously, if it is such a big legal issue why isn't it all over the place in this and other industries? Grand scheme of things, a minor gripe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit I am sure that' date=' in a short time, C25 will be on the shelf.[/quote'] No, actually, it won't. It's only sold through Hero direct in its one, limited print run, edition. And as I wrote previously' date=' if it is such a big legal issue why isn't it all over the place in this and other industries?[/quote'] I don't believe I've ever seen a "pay a deposit and pre-order this one-time book which will be printed only in sufficient quantities that we can be sure of satisfying demand and never reprinted" RPG product. The fact that the product and delivery are not the norm for the system may explain why the issue has not previously arisen. This dovetails with the fact that Steve is a lawyer, and I suspect few other RPG companies have lawyers on staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit And as I wrote previously' date=' if it is such a big legal issue why isn't it all over the place in this and other industries?[/quote'] It is all over the place. I frequently order things with a non-refundable deposit or full payment. music, books, DVDs, hell I ordered movie tickets that had that once. I know friends who have ordered game systems with non-refundable deposits. Hotel rooms, reservations to a few places.... It's just usually a lot less frontwardly placed than Hero has put it. They like to hide it in small print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit It is all over the place. I frequently order things with a non-refundable deposit or full payment. music, books, DVDs, hell I ordered movie tickets that had that once. I know friends who have ordered game systems with non-refundable deposits. Hotel rooms, reservations to a few places.... It's just usually a lot less frontwardly placed than Hero has put it. They like to hide it in small print. The typical non-refundable deposit (at least as far as I am aware) means that the deposit is not refunded to you if you cancel (or don't show up, or try to return the product, or whatever). If you show up for your product/service and they for some reason cannot provide it, I can't ever recall having run into a situation where they will not provide some kind of refund (even if it is store credit, free tickets, or whatever). Such a practice would create a lot of very dissatisfied customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit The typical non-refundable deposit (at least as far as I am aware) means that the deposit is not refunded to you if you cancel (or don't show up' date=' or try to return the product, or whatever). If you show up for your product/service and they for some reason cannot provide it, I can't ever recall having run into a situation where they will not provide some kind of refund (even if it is store credit, free tickets, or whatever). Such a practice would create a lot of very dissatisfied customers.[/quote'] Whatever, I encouter it all the time. On either side of the fence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlascott Posted May 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Ok, I got a deal for you. I am going to generate a machine that is guaranteed to make you a million dollars. I 100% GUARANTEE that this machine will do exactly that--make you one million dollars, instantly, with no strings attached, no effort on your part. I'll need a $100 deposit from each of you who are interested. By the way, the $100 deposit is non-refundable. I might never design or build the machine, at my option. If I decide not to, Im not giving you your money back. Here's another deal. I am going to contact GM about a new deal for a Corvette. New, limited Edition Corvette! 500 hp, convertible, any color you choose, delivered with a 100k/10 year warranty. Limited edition custom leather interior, built to order, only $40,000.00, and there will only be 100 of these built. It will require $1000.00 non-refundable deposit. You ought to know that if I decide not to contact GM, or if for any reason your car isnt built or delivered, there is no refund or recourse whatsoever. You also agree to provide me any information I request, at my discretion. Nope, sorry. You DO NOT see these kind of 'deals' anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teh bunneh Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Ever buy a plane ticket? Read the fine print someday. Bill. ("Pay us $500 and pray we've got a seat for you; no refunds.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjamma4 Posted May 5, 2006 Report Share Posted May 5, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Ok, I got a deal for you. I am going to generate a machine that is guaranteed to make you a million dollars. I 100% GUARANTEE that this machine will do exactly that--make you one million dollars, instantly, with no strings attached, no effort on your part. I'll need a $100 deposit from each of you who are interested. By the way, the $100 deposit is non-refundable. I might never design or build the machine, at my option. If I decide not to, Im not giving you your money back. Here's another deal. I am going to contact GM about a new deal for a Corvette. New, limited Edition Corvette! 500 hp, convertible, any color you choose, delivered with a 100k/10 year warranty. Limited edition custom leather interior, built to order, only $40,000.00, and there will only be 100 of these built. It will require $1000.00 non-refundable deposit. You ought to know that if I decide not to contact GM, or if for any reason your car isnt built or delivered, there is no refund or recourse whatsoever. You also agree to provide me any information I request, at my discretion. Nope, sorry. You DO NOT see these kind of 'deals' anywhere. The only flaw in your analogy is that you do not have a history of doing anything remotely related to what you are promising. Also, your examples are inherently unbelievable. Neither of those can be said about the printing of the C25 book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabluey Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 Re: C25 deposit I saw the provision, had a brief moment of "hey, that's not right," and then sent in my $10. It's not a question of whether I think the agreement is fair or not, it's a question of my faith in the company. They consistently put out a good product, so they're more than capable of doing what they say. And I realize that if they did fail to publish the book and kept everyone's money, they'd simply anger a lot of customers (all of those who did pay the $10 and probably many that didn't). They're too small of a company to risk that. And I accept that sometimes small companies have to be more careful than large companies do. Microsoft's losing $1 million, no biggie; Hero Games' losing $1000, probably more of an issue. So they CYA more than a large corporation has to. So it's basically a risk vs. rewards thing. I'm willing to take what I perceive as very a small risk on $10 for the more likely reward of a book that I want. And ultimately, let's face it, $10 isn't that much money. Not that I'm so rich I burn $10 bills in my fireplace, but if anyone here would suffer financial ruin because of the loss, well, you really shouldn't be thinking about buying a $100 gaming book anyway. Just my $0.02 (which is non-refundable whether or not my thoughts are worth that much) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Re: C25 deposit *stares blankly* I'm amazed. I'm so amazed I'm making a concious effort to refrain from being snarky. You can all imagine just how amazed that makes me. My nominal amount of fanboyism aside, to NOT produce the product is bad business, and as pointed out by many, not going to happen; the book is done, the printer almost has it, and they'll say "Hey Thia, that's another 110 you owe us for your crazy bell & whistle version." And I'll say "Shoot, Steve, if you'd asked I'd've given you the whole mess up front." It seems, to me, that this has become something of a giant platform from which to stand and proclaim "This business practice ain't right! I shall back it up with absurd analogies showing that I, too, can screw YOU!" But there's one flaw. We all know you can't make a get-rich-quick machine for anyone but you (fraud) and we know that Steve, Darren et al are putting the book together and it's almost done. What I don't get is Derek's comment that their reputations were damaged in the process of getting the testimonials. That confounds me. But that's a separate discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Re: C25 deposit What I don't get is Derek's comment that their reputations were damaged in the process of getting the testimonials. That confounds me. But that's a separate discussion. Would be damaged were they to fail to produce the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guyon Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Ok, I got a deal for you. I am going to generate a machine that is guaranteed to make you a million dollars. I 100% GUARANTEE that this machine will do exactly that--make you one million dollars, instantly, with no strings attached, no effort on your part. I'll need a $100 deposit from each of you who are interested. By the way, the $100 deposit is non-refundable. I might never design or build the machine, at my option. If I decide not to, Im not giving you your money back. Hey that crook never said where to send the $100!!!!! I had a check written out and everything. He is going to keep the million himself I bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Having bought many things from Hero/DoJ and witnessed their business practices for several years, I can't believe how big a non-topic this thread is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Re: C25 deposit What I don't get is Derek's comment that their reputations were damaged in the process of getting the testimonials. That confounds me. I'm not quite sure what this is referring to. Unless I'm way out of some loop I don't even know about, I can assure you that getting the testimonials didn't "damage our reputation" at all. The general response to the project and our requests for anecdotes and such was an enthusiastic expression of support, followed days or weeks later by a contribution. I think that section is one of the highlights of the book and if anything improves our reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Having bought many things from Hero/DoJ and witnessed their business practices for several years' date=' I can't believe how big a non-topic this thread is.[/quote'] no kidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Re: C25 deposit What I don't get is Derek's comment that their reputations were damaged in the process of getting the testimonials. That confounds me. But that's a separate discussion. Where, there was that one testimonial... y'know, the one where playing Champions leads to learning real magic spells one you reach 350 points, and from there, it's black robes, a Goth lifestyle, aversion to sunlight, and then.... you're the GM in charge of your own cult! It's true! Jack Chick said so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemurion Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Re: C25 deposit I'm going to come out and say it right now-- I'm very much on the fence about buying C25. However, it's not the $10.00 deposit that's doing it. My issues are partly can I afford it, and partly what will the actual price for me be? Before people go on about the price being set at $100.00 as modified by certain optional extras I should mention that I'm in Canada. This means that I have both the exchange fairy and Canada Customs to deal with. It's quite easy for my price to suddenly fluctuate between about C$120 and about C$150 with no notice (counting only variability in the exchange rate and what customs may or may not charge). Still, I may throw my U$10.00 into the hat. The book will be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kave99 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Re: C25 deposit with the Canadian dollor rising like it is we may be paying less then $100;) And its $10.00($11 in Canada) whats that a couple of beers. my god its only money, a couple of years ago most of us would have given $100 DOJ just to get hero5th printed. now there are lots of people out there that can not spare 100+ on a book that they don't really need and thats fare but the non refundable deposit ain't something that needs debating. DOJ can little afford to tie up valuable capital in a bunch C25 that are never picked up and end up siting on a shelf for months, thy need it to print the next book!!!!, so lay off;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Re: C25 deposit My one and only concern is that when its published I might not have the extra $90 immediately available. What kind of time frame would we be required to pay for the balance? Not that it matters much, since there are only a few hours left before they lock out the deposit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Watts Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Re: C25 deposit Actually, we've decided to leave it open a few more days. Orders are still coming in briskly, so we're holding off the decision on the print run probably til the end of this week/beginning of next. When we have them in stock and are ready for the final payments, you'll have about six weeks or so to make the purchases before we put any unclaimed up for grabs. We'll bug you if we haven't heard from you before that, don't worry. dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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