AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

[Vestnik]

The AARGH was from frustration!

 

OK. I'm trying to build something one would think would be pretty simple: a gun that has different effects depending on what it hits. It does basic damage to inanimate targets, NND damage to animate ones, and blasts undead and creatures of evil magic to hell (i.e., a UAA Extra-Dimensional Movement power -- I know it's a stop-sign power but it's only against a small group and doesn't always work).

 

A multipower requires that the user of the power determine the effect, not what the power is used on. I could build this as three linked powers, but that would be VERY expensive in terms of Active Points and exceed the AP cap of the campaign. Although only one attack is actually effecting the target.

 

Any ideas about how to do this? Help would be greatly appreciated, and, perhaps, Repped, if I could figure out how to Rep anybody. Thanks!

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

I'm sure this has come up before...

 

I'd probably just write it up as a 3-slot multipower, with a -0 "slot determined by target". If the GM feels it's more of a Limit than Advantage or vice-versa, adjust accordingly.

[Valerious]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

I'm not sure how you would build something that would use the right damage for the situation, but you may not need to.

 

I'm thinking go ahead and build it in a multipower. I would guess that in the typical situation you'd know if your target was animate/inanimate/undead, but to be extra sure, also buy a detect to know the difference. Then you choose the right one.

 

I'm not sure if that fits the exact special effect you're looking for, but maybe that'll help.

[Vestnik]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Thanks guys. The problem with making it an MP is that it takes a half-phase to change slots...

 

This is really annoying. Maybe the GM will let me wave the AP cap, given that none of the individual powers exceeds it, and that only one of them every actually affects the target at a time (or even CAN affect it period).

[Starwolf]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

You could build the detect/analyze into the gun, a sort of targeting computer that then selects the approporiate damage type. You might then have to specify a default damage type if the detect fails (maybe the weapon defaults to the last damage type used). Or if the detect fails the computer cannot lock on and the weapon refuses to fire, which could save some points as a limitation (power does not work if detect fails or RSR)

[Vestnik]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

The detect in the gun is an interesting idea -- with the lim "only to determine what type of attack to fire," I suppose.

 

OK, time to go home. I'll check out the boards again tomorrow. Thanks again!

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Thanks guys. The problem with making it an MP is that it takes a half-phase to change slots...

 

This is really annoying. Maybe the GM will let me wave the AP cap, given that none of the individual powers exceeds it, and that only one of them every actually affects the target at a time (or even CAN affect it period).

 

A VARIABLE POWER POOL takes a half-phase to change (unless you buy an advantage). A MULTIPOWER takes no time. Unless something major has changed that I'm not aware of.

 

The AP cap shouldn't be a problem if done with a MP. Ex:

 

60 Multipower (60pt reserve) (+/- 0 Whatever struck determines effect)

6u 12d6 EB (only vs non-living)

6u 6d6 NND (only vs living, def being non-living/force field)

6u blasts undead to hell power (or 4d6 RKA, only vs undead/spirits)

[Doc Samson]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Actually it's as simple as you say, just write down exactly what you want it to do. I would buy all 3 attacks Linked together, each one at full active points, and Take Limited Power: Only Works on "Target" for each. The Limited Power, Focus, and Linked Limitations will make it cost effective.

 

Here is an example for a 60 Max Active campaign.

-6d6 EB, NND(+1), Limited Power "Animate Objects Only" (+0, because NNDs don't do body anyway), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 30 pts.

-12d6 EB, Limited Power "Inanimate Objects Only" (-2), Linked to NND (-1/2), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 13 pts.

-Extra Dimensional Movement, Single Location/ Single Dimension, "Hell", UAA(+1), Limited Power "undead and creatures of evil magic only" (-1, I'm calling it a -1 but this is based on how ofted you fight them), Linked to NND (-1/2), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 16 pts.

Total Cost 59 pts.

 

What really makes it possible is the fact that it's a Gun, it saves you a ton of points. It's alot less clunky then say, letting a Trigger with Sense determine what Multipower Slot you are using. Also, notice how the use of Charges keeps you from paying 3 END costs each shot.

 

[edit] Just to expand a little on the Multipower option, consider these situations. What If you are blasting an Undead or Creature of evil magic/ Inanimate Object, such as a Golem or a Zombie? He should be damaged and banished becasue he fits 2 criteria, right? A MP won't do that. How bout this one, what if the attack is deflected by a Human and hit's a Demon? He should be banished, but of the MP fired an NND or EB, you won't get the effect you want. Remember, in HERO, anything can and will happen.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

I would buy all 3 attacks Linked together' date=' each one at full active points, and Take Limited Power: Only Works on "Target" for each. [/quote']

 

 

I was going to call you on providing a limitation for linked but then realised that in essence all the charges fire together - you only get 16 shots despite having paid for 48.

 

Personally I think that I might put a linked on each attack - all circular A is linked to B is linked to C is linked to A.

 

 

As it stands you could fire A without B or C, or AB without C and AC without B.

 

I would go for the ABC requirement which - in a welcome development - means it cost less points as well.

 

Doc

[schir1964]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Naked Power Advantage?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[incrdbil]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

You could build the detect/analyze into the gun' date=' a sort of targeting computer that then selects the approporiate damage type. You might then have to specify a default damage type if the detect fails (maybe the weapon defaults to the last damage type used). Or if the detect fails the computer cannot lock on and the weapon refuses to fire, which could save some points as a limitation (power does not work if detect fails or RSR)[/quote']

 

I heartily concurr--either the detect, or an advantage on the gun by always having the appropriate attack hit. I say advantage because always having the chosen effewect hit, even if you don't know what you are shooting at exactly could be pretty useful. Maybe 1a 1/4th advantage.

 

I'd make the call based on what makes the determination in the special effect--if the attack itself is what has the effect that the most apppopriate damage is inclicted, then an advantage. If the gun is what figures out what is the best thing to shoot, then make it the detect.

 

The combined power example though has a big plus: lets say you missed the target, and hit somethign else, or it was reflected--the way the combined write up works, the appropriate effect for the target happens, no matter what.

[CourtFool]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

I would go the simplest route and build it as an Energy Attack with NND. It will still do damage to inanimate objects, although less because of the cost of the advantage. Sending undead and creatures of evil magic to hell is pretty much the same as killing them…just special effects.

[David Johnston]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

If it does physical damage to inanimate objects why doesn't it do physical damage to animate ones?

[Silbeg]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Thanks guys. The problem with making it an MP is that it takes a half-phase to change slots...

Huh?

 

Activating a power is a zero-phase action. Changing slots in an MP is just activating a power. Thus, changing slots is a zero-phase action.

 

This is, of course, unless your GM has some house rules to the contrary.

 

This is really annoying. Maybe the GM will let me wave the AP cap' date=' given that none of the individual powers exceeds it, and that only one of them every actually affects the target at a time (or even CAN affect it period).[/quote']

 

Well, on one hand, this is why I hate AP caps. On the other, I would definitely agree with you, as long as they are mutually exclusive.

 

Sounds a lot like the problems I have had when I have tried to model the Zat'nik'tal gun from SG-1... never have had a good resolution there (first shot stuns, second shot kills, third shot disintegrates).

[CBikle]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Buy it as a multipower with a 5 or 10pt. adder that the ultraslot fired is always the one most appropriate.

[Doc Samson]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

I was going to call you on providing a limitation for linked but then realised that in essence all the charges fire together - you only get 16 shots despite having paid for 48.

 

Personally I think that I might put a linked on each attack - all circular A is linked to B is linked to C is linked to A.

 

 

As it stands you could fire A without B or C, or AB without C and AC without B.

 

I would go for the ABC requirement which - in a welcome development - means it cost less points as well.

 

Doc

 

This is a very good point. It doesn't make sense to be able to fire 2 of the 3. Here is an Updated version. The NND Greater power linked to the lesser EDM will be a smaller limitation, however, so it may actually save pts. to try to build the UAA upto 60 pts. To keep it simple I will just add the Linked to the NND.

 

Here is an example for a 60 Max Active campaign.

-6d6 EB, NND(+1), Limited Power "Animate Objects Only" (+0, because NNDs don't do body anyway), Linked to UAA EDM (+1/4), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 27 pts.

-12d6 EB, Limited Power "Inanimate Objects Only" (-2), Linked to NND (-1/2), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 13 pts.

-Extra Dimensional Movement, Single Location/ Single Dimension, "Hell", UAA(+1), Limited Power "Undead and Creatures of Evil Magic Only" (-1, I'm calling it a -1 but this is really based on how ofted you fight them), Linked to EB (-1/2), 16 Charges (+0), OAF "Gun" (-1) 16 pts.

Total Cost 56 pts.

 

[edit] To promote discussion, I'll ask those suggesting MPs or VPPs again; what happens if the target is an Evil Golem? What happens if you are fighting a Demon who is Shapeshifted into a statue or a Human? What happens if a Human reflects the attack at a wall? I think to always get the right effect, you have to fire all 3 attacks every time and let Limited Power sort out which one(s) apply.

[Tom Carman]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

I would go the simplest route and build it as an Energy Attack with NND. It will still do damage to inanimate objects' date=' although less because of the cost of the advantage. Sending undead and creatures of evil magic to hell is pretty much the same as killing them…just special effects.[/quote']

 

Uh, no... The only thing that affects inanimate objects is BODY damage, which NND attacks don't have.

 

Perhaps a combined attack will do for this: 6d6 EB (no BODY damage to living +1/2?), with 6d6 EB (only vs inanimate -1/2?). Undead/evil magic creatures are not counted as living.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Uh, no... The only thing that affects inanimate objects is BODY damage, which NND attacks don't have.

 

Perhaps a combined attack will do for this: 6d6 EB (no BODY damage to living +1/2?), with 6d6 EB (only vs inanimate -1/2?). Undead/evil magic creatures are not counted as living.

 

What about an NND that Does BOD, with the Does BOD advantage limited to only inanimate objects?

[Doc Samson]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

What about an NND that Does BOD' date=' with the Does BOD advantage limited to only inanimate objects?[/quote']

 

This would work, but then it's only a 4 BODY attack (albeit NND Body) against inanimate objects. NND and Does Body are both +1 Advatanges, so in a 60 Max Active campaign, your only working with a 4 dice EB.

[sbarron]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

This is really annoying. Maybe the GM will let me wave the AP cap' date=' given that none of the individual powers exceeds it, and that only one of them every actually affects the target at a time (or even CAN affect it period).[/quote']Well, I think there is a disctinct advantage in having the power only effect certain targets certain ways. No fear of killing innocent civilians with this attack, for starters. No worrying about whether a person is actually a person, or a demon in disquise.

 

Hopefully the GM will wave the AP cap for you. That seems to be the most rule friendly, player friendly solution.

[Vestnik]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Thanks to everybody for the feedback. There are some great idea here. I think I'll go with the big linked option and hope the GM waves the AP cap -- I'm planning on submitting the character to a campaign on Uberworld, and they seem pretty accomodating.

 

I had completely confused MPs and VPPs on the half-phase to change slots thing. Thanks for the correction.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

I like the three-linked-powers solution. It may be the simplest way. One drawback is that it will cost a lot of END (unless you buy it with Charges, or reduced END). 60 AP x3 = 18 END per use.

 

The Multipower solution is also good. There is IMO, an Advantage to automatically picking the right effect for the chosen target. This can be handled with a Detect as mentioned earlier, but how does the detect work?

 

a) the character Detects the nature of the target and chooses the appropriate slot.

the Multipower itself is somehow "intelligent" and chooses the right slot without imparting any info to the character.

 

I would charge the same price for both of the above - the normal price of the Detect - because they both seem to have balancing advantages and drawbacks. With (a) the detect can be fooled, but the character can make a conscious choice when an unusual circumstance warrants it, such as a living target with huge defenses vs STUN only. With ( wierd situations can't be overridden, and the chacacter doesn't get any info in advance about the target, but the Detect won't be as foolable.

 

Then, as others have mentioned, you'll have to decide, with your GM, what happens when the attack hits someone/something other than its intended target. Due to Deflection/Reflection, a miss, aiming at a false target such as an Image or Mental Illusion, etc. I suspect that whatever you decide on this issue will have as many useful applications as it does drawbacks and therefore shouldn't alter the price.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

Another aproach that I haven't seen suggested yet would be to Just ignore the Undead part of the attack and just make the desired effect a Disadvantage of being Undead.

 

(edit) That is, Luther or any other Superman villain doesn't have to 'pay points' for kryptonite. It's effects are understood because they are statted out on Superman's character sheet.

 

You can then do this:

(edit)

Multi-Ray of Smiting: EB ?D6 with Limitation (does not affect living targets) (-??)

plus

Naked Advantage #1, NND on Multi-Ray of Smiting (Active Points = ? x 5), (Only vs. Living Targets) (-???)

plus

Naked Advantage #2, buyback of 1st limitation (+??) Linked to NND (-????)

 

Once you decide the limitations are worth in your game the costs can be figured pretty easily.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

A zat gun? That doesn't seem too difficult. I'll give you one of my half-write ups so you can see where I'm coming from.

 

Multipower, Real Weapon, Energy Weapon (Charges), OAF (Universal Focus) (etc.)

 

Xu) 12d6 EB, NND (Defense is Force Field or appropriate insulation)

Xu) 6d6 RKA, NND (Defense is not having been hit with first shot, or force field), Does BODY, Trigger (Trigger is having been hit with first shot; second shot as a killing attack is an affect that automatically occurs, cannot be changed, resets automatically); Must have been affected by first shot (-1/2), only within one minute of first shot (-1/4)

Xu) 10d6 Transform, NND (Defense is not having been hit with second shot, or force field), Trigger (Trigger is having been hit with second shot; third shot as Disintegration is an effect that automatically occus, cannot be changed, resets automatically); Must have been affected by second shot (-1/2), only within one minute of second shot (-1/4).

 

You can play around with that, but the idea that I'm forwarding is (points and caps aside) the weapon hits and the trigger resolves it. Since the effects are built in such a way that you must have been hit in order for it to work, it prevents people from using the "Transform" because the "Transform" only works after you've already been drilled by shots one & two.

 

Anyway, hope that helps.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: AARGH! How do I build this power without exceeding active point caps?

 

My take on the Zat gun is that everyone has a physical limitation that if they are hit once they will fall unconcious and if hit twice by the gun they will die.

 

No need to stat it out - it is a perk bought by a weapon - PERK: Zat gun

 

As it is heroic and equipment, I don't need anything else.

 

 

Doc