Getting rid of Endurance

[Harakani]

Hi all,

I've tried removing END from heroic games a couple of times.

I do this because I've noticed a lot of players really dislike having to change a stat every time they do something.

 

I first tried ignoring END altogether, and found that as it was the limit on the use of a couple of powers, those powers became overeffective.

 

I tried requiring characters to buy Reduced Endurance: 0 END on all powers and found that this 'front loaded' the cost of speedster characters, with the result that everyone started buying SPD.

 

I'm now looking at this system:

 

Characters may not buy SPD. Characters have no END stat.

In order to get additional actions, characters must buy a package called "Extra Action"

 

"Extra Action" has the following components.

* +1 SPD

* +20 END Endurance Reserve

* +8 REC Endurance Reserve

total: 20 points.

 

All characters are capped at spending 8 END per phase. In a 40 AP game this means that for almost all characters they will be unaffected.

 

Advanced players are allowed to exceed this limit if they are prepared to track their Endurance round by round.

 

for a 60 AP game, I'd probably use 25 points and increase the REC to 12 and the END to 30. (25 points)

 

for a 100 AP game, I'd probably use 20 REC and 50 END (35 points)

 

for a 20 AP game, I'd probably stay at the 20 point level, but could go to 15 (4 REC, 10 END)

 

Does this seem like a reasonable compromise?

Please note I'm using a simplified END system of 10AP = 1 END, even for strength.

 

Thanks

Harakani

[Mike W]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Personally, I don't like it. I always get nervous when people want to substantially rewrite the system like this because it tends to create balance problems, as you have found out in the past. Just have them keep END on a scrap sheet rather than change the character sheet all the time. It's not that hard, no worse than keeping track of blood pool in VAmpire(or not much) or hit points or spell points in D&D. I mean, really, once you get to a decent level in D&D, spellcasters hardly ever take an action that isn't a spell if they can possibly avoid it.

 

If you remove END and SPD it's going to really complicate speedster and martial arts characters, making them VERY expensive to play and give the normally slow "brick" types a big edge since now they not only hit harder and have better DEF, but they have about the same number of actions as everyone else. That extra SPD is what gives the little guys a snowball's shot of slowing down the big bruisers. Without it, I expect you'll see an "arms race" as players try to come up with the biggest attacks and the most impregnable defenses since those will be far more valuable in a world where everyone is equally fast.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I like END in the game. I'm not overly fond of book-keeping and write it out of my own characters as much as possible, or simplify my character such that, if I do standard stuff then I recover END as fast as I spend it. I then only have to think when I do non-standard stuff.

 

Another option would be for you to book-keep and keep a combat sheet where you let people know if they are normal, breathing hard, out of breath, close to exhaustion (which is likely to be different for each person).

 

One of the things I tried in the past was to give players chips for END (not a good idea if you are using chips for other purposes). When they want to do something they throw chips into the pot and when they recover they take chips from the pot.

 

Players seem to deal with that better than writing stuff down...

 

 

Doc

[skyzo]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I'm running a Valdorian Age game and I got rid "more or less" of both END and SPD.

 

I fixed SPD at 2, no matter the character, it's there and it's the same for all characters. I also thought of giving SPD 3 to all but mooks which would have SPD 2.

 

I ignored END costs, except for sorcerers which have a reserve endurance for spells, so no problem.

 

I wouldn't do this for supers or maybe my next fantasy campaign but I think it fits some genres where you don't want to do book keeping.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Just eliminate END costs for standard actions (movement, STR, etc). To balance this, elminate Post-12 recovery of END. Anything else costs END, including power use, pushing, etc. and you can still take a recovery to recover END.

 

I've been running like this for years and it works very well - for heroic games. The theory is that, in general, a person's REC offsets their typical END use per turn, so eliminate that END expenditure and eliminate the free recovery.

[Mike W]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I like END in the game. I'm not overly fond of book-keeping and write it out of my own characters as much as possible, or simplify my character such that, if I do standard stuff then I recover END as fast as I spend it. I then only have to think when I do non-standard stuff.

 

Another option would be for you to book-keep and keep a combat sheet where you let people know if they are normal, breathing hard, out of breath, close to exhaustion (which is likely to be different for each person).

 

One of the things I tried in the past was to give players chips for END (not a good idea if you are using chips for other purposes). When they want to do something they throw chips into the pot and when they recover they take chips from the pot.

 

Players seem to deal with that better than writing stuff down...

 

 

Doc

 

 

I like this idea. It's reminiscent of the "gemstone counters" used for blood in Vampire and everyone has a set of poker chips laying around(even if they're just cheap plastic ones).

[sbarron]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Are we talking for a heroic or supers game? Either way, I feel your pain. Nobody likes tracking END. However, I think you should try some of the END shortcuts people have come up with rather than the changes your suggesting. They are pretty easy to use and will be a lot less intrusive.

 

First, at 10 to 1 END, you probably don't need to worry about tracking END is heroic games except for spellcasters with increased END spells. Most characters will never run out of END, and those that might will will only do so after hours. I guess another exception would be for characters that get knocked out and wake up during combat.

 

For supers games, I always just had my players figure out how long they could fight at full power before they ran out of END. That way, any combat that doesn't go that long doesn't require them to worry about END.

 

For a quick example...

 

Blaster is a blaster. He has a 40 Active Point EB, 5 Spd, 40 END, 8 REC. In full attack mode, attacking every phase, Blaster uses 4 END per phase, 20 END per turn. He gets 8 END back at the end of each turn. So always attacking, he can go for 14 phases before he runs out of END. That's almost 3 full turns. Any combat that doesn't go that long, Blaster doesn't need to worry about tracking END.

 

What I've found is that most combats don't go long enough for characters to worry about running out of END, unless they A) run several powers simultaneously off their END (i.e. FF, Flight, and EB) or take Increased END on certain powers they like to use a lot. But in both these cases, having the players realize that END will likely be a problem early in the game can encourage them to adjust their character to extend the time before they will run out of END. This is easily enough done by either getting Reduced END, ditching the Increased END, getting a END Reserve, or buying up their END and REC.

 

This will be especially helpful if players don't want to track END. They can make it so they don't have to track END by ensuring they can never run out. And that seems to be what you were trying for with your "Extra Action" system.

 

Anyway, this always really helped me. Good luck!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

In various games, we track spells used, spell points, hit points, stun, body, fatigue points, blood pools, psionic points, structural damage capacity and various other stats through combat. I've never been able to understand why END is singled out as being so hard to track.

 

If a player doesn't want to track END, let him buy his abilities with reduced or 0 END so it's not an issue - ie so he can't possibly spend more END than he can recover. There's no reason to change the system to accomodate someone who's never heard of scrap paper.

 

BTW, I find END becomes a more serious issue when the character has recovered from being KO'd during a fight, and now has END equal to their STUN. When you get a PS 12 that brings you to -5, and then recover consiousness with 3 STUN in your next phase, getting through the rest of the turn with 3 END can be interesting.

 

"I'll stay down and take another recovery"? How very heroic!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

God Hugh, why did you have to mention structural damage capacity. I have nightmares thinking about Superheroes Unlimited - specially when what I thought was a carefully constructed flying brick turned out to have less SDC than a well made padlock....

 

[shudder]

 

 

Doc

[pendelfield]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I don't see the problem with keeping track of END. You have a set amount, you reduce it on a scrap piece of paper each time you use a power that requires End, then add a amount back equal to REC. Wheres the problem, Its as easy as keeping track of STUN.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

God Hugh' date=' why did you have to mention structural damage capacity. I have nightmares thinking about Superheroes Unlimited - specially when what I thought was a carefully constructed flying brick turned out to have less SDC than a well made padlock....[/quote']

 

Sorry for the bad memories. [never played Heroes Unlimited - one read through was enough to keep me away from the Palladium shelf...]

[zornwil]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I like END in the game. I'm not overly fond of book-keeping and write it out of my own characters as much as possible' date=' or simplify my character such that, if I do standard stuff then I recover END as fast as I spend it. I then only have to think when I do non-standard stuff.[/quote']

 

I do exactly the same. For NPCs, I pretty much write them so that END is either not at all an issue or I write them so that END is their primary constraint, so either I don't have to track END, effectively, at all for the NPC or END is a big part of their thing so it's worth tracking.

 

Another option would be for you to book-keep and keep a combat sheet where you let people know if they are normal, breathing hard, out of breath, close to exhaustion (which is likely to be different for each person).

 

One of the things I tried in the past was to give players chips for END (not a good idea if you are using chips for other purposes). When they want to do something they throw chips into the pot and when they recover they take chips from the pot.

 

Players seem to deal with that better than writing stuff down...

 

 

Doc

 

Yeah, I definitely agree. And that's why I wouldn't do the Extra Actions thing, I think if people don't like tracking END as is, they won't like this either, as it sounds complicated - regardless as to whether it actually is.

 

Charges can be an easy way to emulate END in a simplistic fashion ("After 4 firings, I'm so fatigued I can't muster more energy!").

 

Another way might be to totally simplify END, but I don't know how well this would work...anyway, basically, maybe something like you first do END normally during character design. Then divide all END stats by 5. Any power/ability that rounds down to 0 (i.e., is 2 or less) costs no END (yes, may create balance issues, dunno). Otherwise you reduce your END stat to the normal END/5, and all END uses to whatever they come out to divided by 5. Then you probably can work with fewer chips, if you go DD's route and less counting, or even use a d20 (ummm....well, y'know, just as a marker...) to represent END, and it gets to be a bit easier to track.

[Kenn]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I'll regularly encourage my players who dislike the "extra" bookkeeping of END costs to buy things like Reduced END, END Batteries, Charges or a monstrous REC score.

 

That last option is rather potent, as it gives them a lot of staying power.

[Rapier]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Well, I can't say as I can disagree with everyone else.

 

END is easy to keep track of. I fly 8", so I deduct that END. You can use scrap paper, poker chips, tick boxes, pennies or anything else to keep track of END.

 

END is also important as a concept as others have pointed out. If you recover from negative STUN, you've got VERY little END and it really forces you to make some hard decisions.

 

Without END, how do you Push? Pushing is a very heroic thing to do.

 

Without END, how do you hold your breath?

 

END really isn't that big of a deal. It's not hard to keep track of. The only problem I've ever run into is that its easy to forget to deduct your spent END.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I generally concur with what has already been said here. Just tell the players if they don't like tracking END (via scraps of paper, or poker chips or whatever), then build their characters so they don't have to.

 

I have had players across the spectrum on END; players that buy everything 0 END, players who think charges are easier to keep track of than END (why I don't know, but it made them happy), players that know pretty much how much END they use per turn and so how long they will last in combat, and I even had a player who actually liked tracking END and figuring out how much power her character had left to finish the turn.

 

Personally I think END adds too much flavor to the game to dispense with it entirely. Downplay it if you must to keep book-keeping simple, but don't do away with it. My 2 cents.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I think END is important to get the right feel for many characters and/or genres.

 

My Champions PC Zl'f has SPD 9 but only 36 END (lower than what I suspect most gamers would give a professional football or basketball player), so it's really easy for her to exceed her END in a Turn of combat, especially if she Pushes (which is often necessary since she does the lowest damage per attack on our team) or uses some of her high-END specialized MP attacks which use 4 END per usage. Even if she only moves normally and uses her martial arts she's still going to burn through 18 END per Turn. That means she has to manage her END use carefully, especially in a prolonged battle. She's burned Stun as END more than once in a fight, and even with a REC of 12 it's not at all unusual for her to finish a combat with only one or two STUN and/or END left. That potential exhaustion in combat is important to her concept.

 

It's easy enough to track with scratch paper or chits. (I rather like the chit idea; I may try to come up with something like that to use to track END use.)

[gojira]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

You might try making up a sheet with common calculations on it for players. Make it easy to photocopy, and just pass them out at the beginning of each play session.

 

You could add a section of little boxes for END, STUN, and BODY. Let the players check it off as combat progresses. For END and STUN, you might have to make more than one section, to allow for recoveries. Rather than erasing, just go to a new line and mark off the total remaining, then continue to subtract from there.

 

Chits, glass beads, percentile dice, etc are all also a good idea. Experiment around, see what works best for your group.

 

Add other common info for their character on the sheet too, like what phases they move in, OCV, DCV, levels, etc. Maybe a range chart and modifiers with levels the character may have.

 

Sorry but if your players are erasing holes in their primary character sheets next to END, they're not the brightest.

[Harakani]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Alright...

 

This is a new group, so I'll give 'em about 6 sessions or so to see if they can cope with END.

 

I always customise the sheet to the game (in this case because low powered heroic fantasy tends to have a lot of equipment and few 'powers'). I'll try and make END easy to understand on the sheet.

 

Thanks for all the feedback.

[Vondy]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

In mundane heroic games without magic or weird powers that burn endurance I generally don't worry about endurance - except for pushing or dramatic long-term effects. In other heroic games I do worry about it, but...

 

I try to design characters who:

 

1) zero out on normal endurance versus recovery usage per turn - even if that means letting them stick 1/2 End Cost on it.

2) burn a set amount of endurance per turn after recovery

3) have fairly standardized power/spell costs.

 

This simplifies the book-keeping. If you have a general notion of how much endurance a character burns in a turn less recovery you can simply do endurance on post-12. And when your remaining endurance does not amount to what you normally use in a turn - then you worry about it phase by phase.

 

Another option, especially if magic is in play, is to have an external source of endurance such as lay-lines, mana-sources, expendable components, and the like. This also reduces endurance costs.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

The easiest way to get rid of END is to simply say all powers use no END as a default, but this has serious game balance implications - force fields are suddenly a much better bet than armour.

 

Alternatively require all powers that cost END to be bought with '0 END cost'.

 

Personally I like END, and have made it more complicated than the base system. END is represented by a series of little boxes: one per point.

 

Mark off used END with a diagonal stroke, starting at the left. When taking a recovery, count the END used since the last recovery and for each full 5 points, turn that number of boxes into crosses, starting on the left (in hte boxes with diagonals in already). This is long term end and recovers at REC per hour of normal activity or per 5 minutes of rest.

 

After a recovery start recording END using a diagonal stroke the other way, so it is obvious how much END you are using that phase.

 

You need an eraser to take recoveries

 

OK that's not really getting rid of END, is it?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Those little four-for-a-buck calculators available at dollar stores around the country.

 

If they don't want a running total on scratch paper (they don't like changing END every phase, but aren't bothered by Stun and Body?), pass out the little calculators.

 

Let them enter their starting END. They can 'plus' and 'minus' as they go along.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Poker chips are easier to see. My PCs have been using END since before I ever touched a Champions book, so I can't say much one way or t'other. However, I can say that coming in from the outside (despite nearly going native at this point) END is a major element of how the system works and remains balanced.

 

Suggestions include:

 

- Check everyone's "normal" END usage in a turn against their REC. If it's higher, they count. If lower, *shrug.* I'm not big on making everyone 0 END through an Advantage, it will get unbalancing quickly.

 

- Tell 'em to suck it up. This is a standard game mechanic; it's like any other point pool, it's basically personal ammunition. I do the opposite - I don't let people buy things to 0 END unless they give me a DARN good reason.

 

- The three things that move in a fight are STUN, END & BODY. The concepts are new if you haven't done it before - an evening of mock combat should do well to get them past the early jitters.

[tesuji]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Well, to be frank about it, if there is something in a game i run that my players don't like doing, I don't make them do it. I espcailly don't make them do it most of the time in every action scene. The game is supposed ton be fun, not work, and if tracking end is work for them, i remove that issue.

 

Also, i rarely see end as a useful mechanic for matching up to the genres i run. Simply put, in most suprrheo adventures and most hero9ic adventures, "tired" is more flavor than meat, and the only time the hero has problems, actual problems, with fatigue is when its a crucial plot element, the actual nemesis in the drama, like when sipdey is up against an indeaftigable relentless robot hunter. 99% of the time, "tired" wont play a role, so why make your game run so that 99% of the time the players have to spend time working at tracking how tired they are?

 

"cuz the game system says so" is an interesting answer, but i put players and fun first.

 

My first take would be to just drop end. I have done so in heroic level games before without a hitch and ran at least three superhero games where end was not tracked (it was assumed normal stuff wasn't tiring and only extra effort caused problems.)

 

Of course, dropping end means you will have to cover for things like holding breath (make it a series of con checks?) and pushing (make it cause activation rolls for future exertions or penalties or maybe just lower DCs by a notch afterward due to fatigue) and so forth but thoseare easy enough.

 

If certain powers/abilities get out of whack (I am curious as to what those were BTW) then apply a cost increase to those to reflect the improvement.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

Well, to be frank about it, if there is something in a game i run that my players don't like doing, I don't make them do it. I espcailly don't make them do it most of the time in every action scene. The game is supposed ton be fun, not work, and if tracking end is work for them, i remove that issue.

 

Also, i rarely see end as a useful mechanic for matching up to the genres i run. Simply put, in most suprrheo adventures and most hero9ic adventures, "tired" is more flavor than meat, and the only time the hero has problems, actual problems, with fatigue is when its a crucial plot element, the actual nemesis in the drama, like when sipdey is up against an indeaftigable relentless robot hunter. 99% of the time, "tired" wont play a role, so why make your game run so that 99% of the time the players have to spend time working at tracking how tired they are?

 

While I agree that, in the source material, "tired" is a plot element, so is "hit" vs "missed", "mind controlled" vs "heroically resisted", and whether or not the characters are stunned, knocked out (and for how long), wounded, impaired, dying or dead. The author makes all of these decisions.

 

In the game, we have objective standards for determining these results because we don't have a single author making the decision. Choosing to remove "tired" from the objectively determined states of being is a decision one can make, but I don't see the END system as any different from rolling to hit, measuring the attack's strength against your defenses and determining the damage inflicted, and its effects. If your characters tire too easily, maybe you're not spending enough points on END, REC and/or reduced END, or otherwise have built your character out of genre (too many full END costing actions in a turn, perhaps).

[zornwil]

Re: Getting rid of Endurance

 

I would agree, though, with Tesuji that "tired" is a much less common barrier compared to hitting or missing and levels of being damaged. Modeling it is often less important and why even HERO mentions dropping it as an option, I believe.