Animation or Comics?

[Jhamin]

I've been thinking about some things I've read Bruce Timm and Eric Radomski say about Batman.

 

They were saying that as a comic fan he always had these ideas of a character in his head, how some versions of that character are more real than others. It's like saying that the Steve Ditko Spider Man or the Todd McFarlane Spiderman *is* Spiderman more than the clone wars Spider Man is.

Specifically, he talked about certain comics that were more important in his mind and others that he tended to ignore.

 

The creators were apparently really suprised when they started noticing that regular DC continuity was starting to take it's cues from their show. Then people started coming up to Bruce at conventions and saying that in their minds the Bruce Timm Batman *was* Batman more than any of the comic or movie versions were.

 

The response was that when they adapted characters for the Animated Series the writers basically tried to keep all the best "bits" of the characters while boiling them down to their basic essance. In a cartoon you only have so much time, so you have to do more in less time.

 

So the reason I'm posting all this is: What cartoons do people feel got existing characters "right" and which ones didn't? Are there any series where the animation trumps the comics in your mind?

[Chimpira]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I liked The Question from the JLU quite a bit more than how he was purtrayed in his last mini.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I've been thinking about some things I've read Bruce Timm and Eric Radomski say about Batman.

 

They were saying that as a comic fan he always had these ideas of a character in his head, how some versions of that character are more real than others. It's like saying that the Steve Ditko Spider Man or the Todd McFarlane Spiderman *is* Spiderman more than the clone wars Spider Man is.

Specifically, he talked about certain comics that were more important in his mind and others that he tended to ignore.

 

The creators were apparently really suprised when they started noticing that regular DC continuity was starting to take it's cues from their show. Then people started coming up to Bruce at conventions and saying that in their minds the Bruce Timm Batman *was* Batman more than any of the comic or movie versions were.

 

The response was that when they adapted characters for the Animated Series the writers basically tried to keep all the best "bits" of the characters while boiling them down to their basic essance. In a cartoon you only have so much time, so you have to do more in less time.

 

So the reason I'm posting all this is: What cartoons do people feel got existing characters "right" and which ones didn't? Are there any series where the animation trumps the comics in your mind?

 

Batman: the Animated Series is the most obvious example. The way Batman has been portrayed in the comics has been so unstable over the last 65 years that it is very, very hard to pin him down. I would send that Timi and Dinn got him right in the sense they were able to keep a grip on who he is, which is more than even Frank Miller was able to do over time. He isn't nice, he isn't necessarily good, and he certainly isn't somebody you'd want as an enemy -- but you can understand him and get a glimpse of what drives him. This, in a large part, is what made Batman Beyond such a brilliant idea and why it worked so well (and so much better than anyone could have imagined when it was first pitched).

 

By contrast, I have yet to have seen an animated series really get Spider-Man right. He ought to be the Hamlet of superheroes, hiding his pain and doubt behind an impenetrable mask of cloth and wisecracks, always being the one who asks himself "I may have to do this, but is it right?" and "The Green Goblin is a murderous monster, so I must destroy him -- but what does that make me?".

[Hermit]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

Very hard to go wrong with anything in the Timm/Dini Animated verse... It was the first time I found Batman really enthralling in awhile. The JLU had less time to focus on any one character, but some of the bit characters really stood out. I can't honestly compare the Question in the JLU to his comic because I hadn't read that, but he was great. One I CAN praise is Booster Gold. The JLU depiction was more competent than some of the 'bwhahhaha' comics, but not as big a jerk as some things I hear about modern takes.

 

I actually found some of the Animated Hulks more entertaining than the comics. I've never been a big Hulk fan mind you, but that was a kicking surreal intro to the 1996 version early season.

 

Hulk Intro

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I can't say much beyond that I agree wth everyone praising the Dini/Timm versions of various DC characters. Now if only they could become the chief editors at DC, and Dan Slott and Kurt Busiek could take up the reins at Marvel, then I think a lot of folks would be happy.

[prodigyduck]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I feel, as a whole, that the animated Timm/Dini DC series depict the characters far more true to the actual concepts than the comic books have been for DECADES!

 

Since both DC and Marvel have been seeping themselves in the Iron Age standards of killing people left and right, I can't read their stuff anymore. The only comic I've enjoyed collecting are the hardback collectionns of the Batman/Superman series. I still have problems with some of the events, but, generally, they are pretty good. If you want a good print comic, go read PS238 by Aaron Williams.

 

Otherwise, I'm planning on just watching the DCAU some more.

[input.jack]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I can't say much beyond that I agree wth everyone praising the Dini/Timm versions of various DC characters. Now if only they could become the chief editors at DC' date=' and Dan Slott and Kurt Busiek could take up the reins at Marvel, then I think a lot of folks would be happy.[/quote']

 

Apparently I left my head open, and FenrisUlf peeked in.

[prodigyduck]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

Apparently I left my head open' date=' and FenrisUlf peeked in. [/quote']

 

EWW!!

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I've always been more of an animation fan than a comics fan. My all time favorite has been Batman: The Animated Series but only the first two seasons. I also have been enjoying the Ultimate Avenger movies (Cap's WWII costume in the first movie rocks, by the way.)

 

However, I am also fairly happy with the recent efforts of making superhero live-action movies. Daredevil was a disappointment in the theaters, but the director's cut was a lot better (it ties up some loose ends in the plot). The X-Men series (the first two movies) was pretty good. I am an absolute fanboy of Batman Begins (though the person who cast Katie Holmes in that movie should be taken out and shot) and I enjoyed the most recent Punisher movie as well (even though I wasn't entirely happy with its syrupy goodie-two-shoes ending).

 

Of course, since I loved the Batman:TAS it only goes without saying that I loved the original Batman movie and its sequel Batman Returns. The other two movies of that franchise should be shown in film schools as examples of how not to make a superhero movie.

 

But my all time favorite animated series is a toss-up between Underdog and Space Ghost.

 

Matt "Old-School" Frisbee

[Murrkon5]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I've decided comics are irrelevant. When one compares the accessibility of cartoons/movies/teevee versus finding the one or two obscure specialty shops in a city that sell comics books, who reads those things? I certainly used to, but now the Dini/Timm DCAU is canonical for me when it comes to DC. Marvel cartoons all pretty much suck, but the big screen depictions of X-Men and Spider-Man are so much more palatable than the print schlock.

 

As initially referenced, the film adapatations have a concise, tight framework of time to present a story. No room for wandering "decompressed" flab. Dig out the best bits of the character(s) and move them thru their paces, chop-chop, no loitering. If memory serves, comics used to be that way, but not for many years now.

 

After the DCAU collection (I was so happy to get the final DVD of "Superman"), I'd say the "The Tick" cartoon squeaks by its original comic. The old B&W comics were great, but they were also sprinkled with 80's comic book satire that is getting a bit dated. The Tick cartoons are far more timeless.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

Actually,I'm not a big fan of the animated version of Superman.I think that they reduced his powers (mostly invulnerability) too much.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

As with so many on this thread, I also must praise the animated DCU. Especially their handling of Batman. Superman was awesome, too, as well as Batman Beyond, and even Static Shock (which I paid much more attention to once they tied it in to the main DCAU). And JLU was (IMHO), the greatest animated series ever on television. And since movies have also been mentioned, the best Batman movie before Batman Begins was the animated Mask of The Phantasm.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

No argument there.(Though I have to say I enjoyed the 60's live-action movie starring Adam West and Burt Ward).

[OddHat]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

Comic Books are dead. Necrophiles such as ourselves are keeping the corpse twitching, but it will decompose soon enough. Animation is the defining medium for Superheroes these days.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

Comic Books are dead. Necrophiles such as ourselves are keeping the corpse twitching' date=' but it will decompose soon enough. Animation is the defining medium for Superheroes these days.[/quote']

 

On the other hand, the graphic novel is alive and well, not always for superheroics but but as way to tell other sorts of stories. I could cite numerous examples such as V for Vendetta, A Contract with God, Maus and Emma Bovary -- and that's just the English-language ones.

 

To be honest, that would be my medium of choice were I actually able to draw.

[OddHat]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

On the other hand' date=' the [i']graphic novel[/i] is alive and well, not always for superheroics but but as way to tell other sorts of stories. I could cite numerous examples such as V for Vendetta, A Contract with God, Maus and Emma Bovary -- and that's just the English-language ones.

 

Yes, and the graphic novel will probably last at least as long as mass market printed books. It's not the medium that's shaping the publics perception of any given Superhero, as a comparison of the audiance that sees something like Batman Begins or the animated JLU compared to the circulation of the JL comic book will attest.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I love the DCUA, but I have to mention Ultimate Avengers when talking about animation ... while not completely faithful to the source, it's a great blend of Avengers and Ultimates. The characters are interesting, the animation is fun and, overall, both movies are great viewing ... for the same reasons, I would also put X-Men: Evolution in these ranks.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

Ultimate Avengers is awesome. I think the only reason JLU beat it out in my mind is because they used almost every character in the DCU. Plus it was on the air for like 5 seasons compared with 2 dvds. I think straight-to-dvd animation will probably be the biggest medium for telling superhero stories in a few short years. Maybe not even that long. As proof, I give you Marvel's new animated films department, and DC's upcoming Superman, Justice League, and Teen Titans dvds. Plus with the dvds in the 15-20 dollar price range, and trade paper-backs (which are often a collection of 4-6 issues of a comic) in the same area, telling a story that's pretty much the same as what the movie can tell, it becomes a question of whether the audience would like to read a story with static illustrations or watch a story with animation. Personally, I like both. Besides, you can't watch a dvd while you're on the toilet (unless you have tv in the bathroom).

[Rage]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

Whazt we are finally seeing with those DVD's is the western comics people getting in on the OVA market. Which, ofcourse, is wonderful.

[Funksaw]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

To be fair, Animation is a much more expensive process than comic books, and always will be - though to a collector, seeing the Animation on TV vs. paying $3.50 for a 24 page issue with 10 pages of ads in it might make thing seem a bit... different.

 

I believe you'd get more mileage out of comics if you sold them in quarterly issues instead of monthly issues that are pretty much nothing, but you'd also get more mileage out of comics if you put them on the Web. The jump by either Marvel or DC to the web is long delayed as they try to wring the last bits of money out of the cash cow, but with rising paper and distribution costs, it's going to Web only soon enough.

 

But I digress; Planetary or Transmetropolitan, Swamp Thing and the Sandman - they would not make it into animation, and we see what happens when Hollywood gets it's hands on graphic novels. (I still can't decide which is more of a stomach-turner, Keanu Reeves as John Constantine, or Jack Black as Green Lantern.)

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

Jack Black as Green Lantern.)

 

Will not happen. If I have to use a high-powered rifle to make sure, this will not happen. Besides, all I'd heard was that he was "attached" to the project.

[secretID]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

I haven't watched a superhero cartoon in several years. Can someone help me out with the abbreviations you've been using for the DC cartoons, so I can look for some on dvd? E.g., what's "JLU?"

[freakboy6117]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

JLU Justice League Unlimited what came after the first couple of series of justice league basically the decided 7 wasn't enough and basically recruited all of the DC heroes to join the league forming ad hoc teams for particular crisis the portrayal of unpowered heroes like the question and green arrow being particularly good to my mind.

[Funksaw]

Re: Animation or Comics?

 

The only criticism of it is that, because most of these heroes were NOT heroes that the average comic reader would be familiar with.

 

In the origional JL (animated) Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Flash need no introduction (mostly because all have had television series or movies at one time) while the Green Lantern is more obscure. The Martian Manhunter and Hawkgirl were unfamiliar - the origin of one is the story behind the first 2 hour special, while the origin of the other is kept secret to be part of the series concluding arc. Most of the JL stories are also two parters, meaning there's less time introducing the characters and more time with the stories.

 

In particular, the episode with Booster Gold is very, very good; but it's only a half hour and you really don't see him again... much of that is explaining his backstory; that he's a timetraveller from the future with a (likable) robot sycophant, a glory hound and motivated by fame and money, and on the low parts of the totem pole in the league. I would not say most of his on-screen time is exposition, but much of it is.

 

Now, keep in mind that the JLU was pretty much introducing a new character each episode... The first episode introduced Captain Atom and Green Arrow, the next introduced Power Girl and The Question, etc...

 

Sometimes they spread the origin of the characters beyond more than one story - Shining Knight's origin was only explained in his last appearance in the series, while Vigilante's really wasn't explained at all.