Speed Chart dynamism

[Doc Democracy]

I am in the camp that believes that the speed chart is one of the innovative things that makes Hero stand out from other games.

 

I have always been confused by comments that it is too restrictive and closes down options (though I can understand the ones about making it easy for players to predict and play the system rather than the game)

 

I have been investigating this with my own group and decided that it probably comes about because many players wait for their phase to come round and act immediately on that phase and then have to wait until their next phase to act again.

 

I have decided to try a system of traffic lights. All players will start with green disks (able to take any action). If they make a half move or half move equivalent action then they will replace the green disk with an amber one (able to take half move equivalent actions) and if they make a full move or take an attack action then they replace their current disk with a red one (able to make 'abort to' actions only). On the beginning of their next phase the GM will indicate that they change their current disk for a green one.

 

I am hoping that they will begin to work with the 'traffic lights' and what they are able to do rather than focussing on the numbers and feel a bit more at liberty to improvise and stretch their phases across all twelve segments rather than the 5 or 6 that they normally use.

 

Comments?

 

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

So how does this work with SPD? Is it simply to encourage people to think about their actions (that's what I am assuming), or is it a replacement for SPD?

 

If it's the former, my answer to getting players to think about SPD, was to use NPC's SPD properly. For example, when a higher SPD PC is attacked by three (relatively smart) mook types, they circle him and one or two delay while another attacks. Depending on the PC's actions the NPCs can react - it makes it far harder for the PC to use maneuvers such as Sweep to dispose of all of them in one go and it lets them use haymakers and similar attacks when the PC cannot so easily respond. Alternatively, whichever mook is attacked goes as defensive as he can. That means if the PC fights defensively - mindful of the mooks to either side - he has far less chance of inflicting damage, but if he goes all out for a sure hit, he risks getting tagged.

 

That kind of tactical combat, where low-point characters compensate for their low SPD encourages tactical play by smart players - which in turn means using their SPD advantage.

 

It's monkey see, monkey do. If the players keep getting beat up by 25 point street punks who use their SPD wisely, they'll retaliate in kind - which is what you want, no?

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

It is not a replacement for speed - it should be a physical representation of their state of readiness. The refresh of the red to green (or amber to green) is dictated by SPD.

 

I think that people get it into their head that if they have phases on 3,5,8,10 and 12 then those are the segments on which they act. I am trying to change the perception from that to those are the segments when I will be ready to act again.

 

Its a subtle difference but one that (I believe) could make a huge difference to game play. I am thinking of doing the same for the NPCs (after the first round of combat - to give some element of the fog of war) to allow PCs to make decisions.

 

 

Doc

[Trebuchet]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

It's an honestly clever & innovative idea; I'll be interested in how it works out for your group. To add anything to the game, I think new procedures must not only be fundamentally useful but that the players and GM have to agree it makes the game better. Otherwise it's just more complication in an already very complicated combat system.

 

In our campaign, holding Phases or half-Actions is pretty routine. Even our SPD 4 brick has been known to Hold until a faster teammate put her opponent prone, then attacked the now-half DCV bad guy. So it's not only fast characters can take advantage of waiting.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

It's an honestly clever & innovative idea; I'll be interested in how it works out for your group. To add anything to the game, I think new procedures must not only be fundamentally useful but that the players and GM have to agree it makes the game better. Otherwise it's just more complication in an already very complicated combat system.

 

In our campaign, holding Phases or half-Actions is pretty routine. Even our SPD 4 brick has been known to Hold until a faster teammate put her opponent prone, then attacked the now-half DCV bad guy. So it's not only fast characters can take advantage of waiting.

 

I think what it would also add is a very quick, visual way to see how many of your teammates are ready to act at any time in the game...

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

Am awful lot of problems in both Life and Hero are a matter of perspective, and this seems like a new and interesting one, which should change in-grained patterns somewhat, which is a very good thing. Excellent notion!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

I've had similar problems with players always acting on their Phase like clockwork. More specifically, I've had players get confused that the villains seemed not to act the same from Turn to Turn, and I explain it's because they occasionally hold their Phases. I ended up publishing a set of houserules for how I handle holding phases in my game, which you can read here: http://tlo3t.net/herosystem/documents/sequence.html

[zornwil]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

I would be interested to hear how it works, I think it sounds good.

[tesuji]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

i gotta say IMX i had the reverse problem... after a short learning period the players stared holding actions routinely, so we ended up with a very busy "end of segment before my speed comes up again" with a bunch of nigh simultaneous actions. Speed 5 became mass simul actions at end of 2 (from last 12), end of 4, end of 7, end of 9 and end of 11.

 

encouraging "held actions" was never something i needed. heck, i wanted to discourage it and have a more flowing combat than one which played out like "everyone ready...wait...wait...wait..ok make dex rolls to see who goes"

 

 

In one game i lifted the "cannot react on segment you attack" and this decreased a lot. it seemed the motivators were about 50/50 between "want to always be able to abort" and "want to see what he is doing before i commit"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

Sounds interesting. I guess I would question whether it's really that obvious who is ready to act at any given point in time, but that's a matter of flavour more than substance.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

i gotta say IMX i had the reverse problem... after a short learning period the players stared holding actions routinely' date=' so we ended up with a very busy "end of segment before my speed comes up again" with a bunch of nigh simultaneous actions. Speed 5 became mass simul actions at end of 2 (from last 12), end of 4, end of 7, end of 9 and end of 11.[/quote']

 

I find the answer to this is to rule againts "Well, it's the very end of Segment 2" timing. If everyone is waiting, the clock flips to segment 3 (and no "wait, just before Segment 2 ends, I want to..." actions are accepted). The character doesn't have "Detect last possible moment I can act before the segment changes" - he can only see that everyone seems to be holding back, waiting for someone else to act.

 

Similarly, I wouldn't let a character in DD's approach retroactively act "before he flips to green". You waited too long - he's recovered his bearings.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

I find the answer to this is to rule againts "Well, it's the very end of Segment 2" timing. If everyone is waiting, the clock flips to segment 3 (and no "wait, just before Segment 2 ends, I want to..." actions are accepted). The character doesn't have "Detect last possible moment I can act before the segment changes" - he can only see that everyone seems to be holding back, waiting for someone else to act.

 

Similarly, I wouldn't let a character in DD's approach retroactively act "before he flips to green". You waited too long - he's recovered his bearings.

 

 

Yeah-good point, if you go round the table and everyone waits to see, then you move to the next segment. Good principle there.

 

 

Doc

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

I have been investigating this with my own group and decided that it probably comes about because many players wait for their phase to come round and act immediately on that phase and then have to wait until their next phase to act again.

 

I have decided to try a system of traffic lights. All players will start with green disks (able to take any action). If they make a half move or half move equivalent action then they will replace the green disk with an amber one (able to take half move equivalent actions) and if they make a full move or take an attack action then they replace their current disk with a red one (able to make 'abort to' actions only). On the beginning of their next phase the GM will indicate that they change their current disk for a green one.

 

I am hoping that they will begin to work with the 'traffic lights' and what they are able to do rather than focussing on the numbers and feel a bit more at liberty to improvise and stretch their phases across all twelve segments rather than the 5 or 6 that they normally use.

 

Interesting idea, but I don't think it's really necessary. Your group dynamics are of course different, so if you think it would help your group, more power to you. In my group it would either come down to people using actions as soon as they got another green disk, some holding on to them to coordinate/etc, and some holding onto the disks through several phases - aka normal play style.

 

In and of itself, I don't see how the disk system will really encourage held actions/"spreading them out" any more than the Speed Chart already does, and it probably involves more GM work keeping the disks straight. I mean, you're still keeping track of the Speed Chart right? So you're either still calling out segments/dexes and having players react, or you have to make sure players are tracking the disks correctly.

 

If you're going to implement it, I would suggest some changes:

 

*Everyone has a Yellow Disk until their phase comes up. Yellow Disk can be used to abort. If abort, get a Red Disk until after normal action's segment is over, when get another Yellow Disk. (ie 4 SPD [3/6/9/12] character aborts on seg 2, trades Yellow for Red. After seg 3, trades Red for Yellow again.)

 

*When your phase/dex comes up, trade in Yellow for TWO Green Disks. Each can be traded in for 1/2 phase action. If make attack action, uses all remaining Green Disks. You can only have at most two Green Disks at any time. (So if 4 SPD guy holds on to his Seg 9 Green Disks and seg 12 comes around, doesn't get more). At the end of the segment you use your last Green Disk, you get a Yellow Disk.

 

*To be clear, Green and Yellows cannot be used in the same segment (only one full phase worth of actions in a segment).

[tesuji]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

I find the answer to this is to rule againts "Well, it's the very end of Segment 2" timing. If everyone is waiting, the clock flips to segment 3 (and no "wait, just before Segment 2 ends, I want to..." actions are accepted). The character doesn't have "Detect last possible moment I can act before the segment changes" - he can only see that everyone seems to be holding back, waiting for someone else to act.

 

 

perhaps but to me the rule system makes so much use of segments and end of segment that trying to disallow one single use of "counting segments" seems more like treating symptom than treating problems.

Saying you dont know how son you can dodge next" just feels off poarticularly if its only for "those holding actions"

 

of course, DND handle it with declaring what you are waiting for and what you will do for held actions AND stepping back your init order, so you never see "hold then act twice in a row"

 

In another game, more homebrew, i used a held action initiative which made how ready are you" important...

if you said "if this then that" that action went before...

"if this then i choose" and "if this then i choose" went before...

"i act now" and "i act now" went before...

"i will wait and see."

 

etc

 

now, amazingly, in game systems where "one hit Kos" are not uncommon... a lot more people were going for the "take my shot as soon as i can".

[tesuji]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

Yeah-good point, if you go round the table and everyone waits to see, then you move to the next segment. Good principle there.

 

 

because more phases in which no one does anything is... good?

 

well, you can get to post-12 recoveries quicker!

 

:-)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

Less of an issdue if everyone has the same speed but it does make a difference otherwise and it sends the message that just sitting back might hand the initiative to the other side....

 

 

Doc

[BNakagawa]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

A concept I have mulled over for some time but never had the courage to implement:

 

Make randomizer chits for numbers 1-12, put them in a bag.

 

For every combatant, draw a number of chits equal to their SPD, write down the numbers and put them back in the bag.

Record the numbers and compile the SPD chart. Then run the combat.

 

Everyone will get their SPD in actions per turn, but they will not know when they will act.

 

Alternately, make chits for numbers 1-11 and draw SPD -1 for each combatant, and allow everyone to act on phase 12.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

Yeah-good point, if you go round the table and everyone waits to see, then you move to the next segment. Good principle there.

 

 

Doc

If everyone is waiting, I immediately skip to Segment 1 (do not pass Post Segment 12, do no collect a Recovery) and stay there, with everyone having a held phase until someone does something.

[Markdoc]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

A concept I have mulled over for some time but never had the courage to implement:

 

Make randomizer chits for numbers 1-12, put them in a bag.

 

For every combatant, draw a number of chits equal to their SPD, write down the numbers and put them back in the bag.

Record the numbers and compile the SPD chart. Then run the combat.

 

Everyone will get their SPD in actions per turn, but they will not know when they will act.

 

Alternately, make chits for numbers 1-11 and draw SPD -1 for each combatant, and allow everyone to act on phase 12.

 

A variant on this which I have used to great success is to randomise the speed chart using a dice. People act when the number rolled is equal to or less than their SPD - or can act at a higher number, if they have a held action. Everyone goes on a 1 and gets a "post-12" (or post-1 ) afterwards.

 

It's a good time-saver, but doesn't address the Doc's original problem of people acting as soon as they have an action and not holding to try something different: it's a whole 'nother thread.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

A concept I have mulled over for some time but never had the courage to implement:

 

Make randomizer chits for numbers 1-12, put them in a bag.

 

For every combatant, draw a number of chits equal to their SPD, write down the numbers and put them back in the bag.

Record the numbers and compile the SPD chart. Then run the combat.

 

Everyone will get their SPD in actions per turn, but they will not know when they will act.

 

Alternately, make chits for numbers 1-11 and draw SPD -1 for each combatant, and allow everyone to act on phase 12.

 

Strip out the kings from a deck of cards and deal a hand to everyone equal in size to their speed Ace=1, Jack=11, Queen=12. A really innovative game called DeadLands uses a similar system, and it is good for shaking up the order. Dex order on phases (or, if you have more than one card for a given phase, Dex then 3/4 Dex then 1/2 Dex then 1/4 Dex)

 

However this approach has to be coupled with an acknowledgement that a turn is 12 seconds but a phase or segment is virtually meaningless as a unit of time - speed is just a measure of how fast you react in a sequence at any given time, not a representation of the passage of time, and it will make a mockery of segmented or realistic movement. Mind you holding actions does anyway.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

I had a similar idea to the OP. It was based on the assumption that everyone holds their initial action. Then ignore that, and start at phase 12. Here's how it works:

 

Give every player and villain (ignore mooks) a marker - let's say it's a small bean bag. Start on "phase 12" and play like normal.

 

If anyone wants to do something out of turn, they can surrender their bean bag (toss it into a bowl in the center of the table) and do something immediately. That includes Abort type actions.

 

If you don't have a bean bag, you must act on your Phases but can still Abort. The drawback is that you can't "jump in" when you see an opportunity.

 

You can get your bean bag back by skipping your next Phase.

 

That seems very close to the current rules, with a little tweaking to make it easy.

 

[if you want, give everyone two markers - one for the held action, and one purely defensive for Aborts. If you use both, you can't act your next phase and must recover your Abort marker.]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

Strip out the kings from a deck of cards and deal a hand to everyone equal in size to their speed Ace=1' date=' Jack=11, Queen=12. A really innovative game called DeadLands uses a similar system, and it is good for shaking up the order. Dex order on phases (or, if [u']you [/u]have more than one card for a given phase, Dex then 3/4 Dex then 1/2 Dex then 1/4 Dex)

 

Another card-using variant I've seen suggested is to shufle the deck (or more than one deck) and draw cards, one at a time. The card drawn is the current segment. Sure, your 6 SPD martial artist can hold his action beyond the end of the segment, but if an even number comes up, he's begun his next phase. The Kings stay in under this approach - when a king comes up, that's Post Segment 12.

[archermoo]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

My general way of dealing with it is that I don't announce what segment we are in. I just announce whos turn it is to do something. I don't hide what segment it is particularly, but I don't announce when the segment changes, nor do I announce when bad guys are delaying their actions. Which they do on a regular basis. Sometimes, particularly for the more powerful baddies, entirely skipping one or more actions in a turn. Or at least doing nothing obvious on them. Which might lead people playing the system instead of the game to assume they have a different speed or dex than they really do...

[Robyn]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

If everyone is waiting' date=' I immediately skip to Segment 1 (do not pass Post Segment 12, do no collect a Recovery) and stay there, with everyone having a held phase until someone does something.[/quote']

 

What if both sides want to rest?

[sinanju]

Re: Speed Chart dynamism

 

I mentioned this once before a while back in another thread, but I think it bears repeating.

 

There's a WWII miniatures combat game called Cross-Fire which does not use fixed turns. Instead, one side or the other (usually determined by the scenario) starts with the initiative. That side's player can take any legal action with any of his units. If successful, he can do so again (moving the same unit again, or another, or having a unit fire on the enemy, etc.). He continues in this fashion until one of the opposing player's units successfully a) fires on a moving unit, interrupting it's action, or is fired on but not pinned or destroyed, and so forth.

 

At that point, the opposing player has seized the initiative (literally) and HE can now move/fire/etc with any of his units in the same fashion until and unless the opposing force can regain the initative.

 

It occurs to me to wonder if this could be translated into Champions combats. Characters belong either to the GM or the Players. When combat starts, the highest SPD character (or unit, if its a team of mooks, for instance) starts with the initiative. If they can move/attack/etc successfully, any of that side's other characters (regardless of SPD at this point) can then take an action. They retain the initiative until a) all the characters on that side have moved/attacked as many times as their SPD score, or they fail to hit (or do any damage or whatever criteria you choose), at which point the opposing side gains the initiative.

 

Under this system, the question of who has the highest SPD/Dex only matters to determine which side starts with the initiative, and no speed chart is necessary. High SPD characters would potentially get more actions, though if their side loses the initiative, too bad--until they regain it.

 

I have no idea whether this approach is viable, but I'd like to try it.