Grond vs. A Cow

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I noticed last night that the Small Mammals in the Bestiary are capable of killing a grown human being (1/2d6 HKA, SPD 3). Squirrels are indeed a thing of terror.

 

Perhaps it is the "ambient magic" in the CU that has so buffed up the Animal Kingdom.

 

I've been bitten by a squirrel, and it's no cakewalk. However, that 1/2d6 HKA listed in the Bestiary for Diminutive Mammals is a little misleading. It's built with Reduced Penetration, and the creatures have -5 STR so they can't add any STR damage to it, so they're doing only two 1-pip KA damage with their bite. Any Resistant Defense at all possessed by a human dealing with them, such as the thick clothing an animal handler normally wears, will protect them.

 

And to reiterate, the "cow" writeup in the Bestiary is almost certainly not meant to represent domestic dairy cows and the like. The descriptive text for that entry gives specific examples of "large bovids such as the American bison, cape buffalo, or domestic bull" (p. 142). Also, I think that the animal's resistance to damage is based on the premise of an attacker using Killing weapons, natural or artificial; they have only 2 rPD. I agree that there are some incongruities in the animals' stats, but IMO they're generally not as unrealistic as they might appear at first.

 

I do have to agree with concerns about some of the DEF and BODY totals of vehicle writeups in the Ultimate Vehicle, though. When using any of the prebuilt vehicles in my game, I make one adjustment which works pretty well for me: for vehicles which are more than one hex in area, the listed BODY total for a vehicle applies to each hex. You have to do that much BODY damage to a single hex in order to destroy it, and you have to break all its hexes to destroy the vehicle completely, although it may be rendered inoperable (or sunk in the case of watercraft) before then.

[Mister E]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I tend towards exactly the opposite direction' date=' probably because NCM for humans is 20 Body, and no matter how hard I try and wrap my head around the idea, I can't see anyone out side of a superheroic scale being able to soak as much damage as the nonliving comparisons. [/quote']

 

Me neither. This is why I go with the mass to BODY conversion, only modified with specified BODY enhancing powers (the most common of which in my game is something I call Vital Essence and is derived from CON plus EGO, the sum divided by 10). As far as I'm concerned, the NCM of 20 works for everything but BODY.

 

A bovine should be harder to kill than a person...they weigh 10 times as much as we do.

A Greek Trireme warship shouldn't even be in the same ballpark.

 

That and the cannon problem... the vehilces are designed to kinda scale with ech other, but this leads to absurdities at the lower end of the scale because the top end tries to still be "vunerable" to superheroic attacks.

If you want a Super packing only 12-15 DC to be a credible threat to things like battleships or tanks, and in turn to be able to survive fighting them, you need to go with a "fragile world" approach like LL suggests, or you need to set the bar unnaturally low for defences, attacks and body. Then, when you try and bechmark lower tech agaist the same stats you wind up with absurdities like the 1d6+1 RKA 3 pound cannon.

 

Kind of like shooting the gas tank of a car in an 80's tv show.

 

 

Hey! I lived off of Linden Ave in the 80's!!!

 

... it's more than annoying when your 350 point Superman knockoff can't ignore bullets or smash tanks in one blow: it strains verisimilitude.

[Mister E]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I do have to agree with concerns about some of the DEF and BODY totals of vehicle writeups in the Ultimate Vehicle' date=' though. When using any of the prebuilt vehicles in my game, I make one adjustment which works pretty well for me: for vehicles which are more than one hex in area, the listed BODY total for a vehicle applies to [b']each hex[/b]. You have to do that much BODY damage to a single hex in order to destroy it, and you have to break all its hexes to destroy the vehicle completely, although it may be rendered inoperable (or sunk in the case of watercraft) before then.

 

... unless you hit the gas tank.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I don't care how you cut it, Grond (as his character is supposed to exist) should be able to turn any, ANY mundane animal into pink mist from a punch using just his casual strength.

 

TB

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I've been bitten by a squirrel' date=' and it's no cakewalk. However, that 1/2d6 HKA listed in the [i']Bestiary[/i] for Diminutive Mammals is a little misleading. It's built with Reduced Penetration, and the creatures have -5 STR so they can't add any STR damage to it, so they're doing only two 1-pip KA damage with their bite. Any Resistant Defense at all possessed by a human dealing with them, such as the thick clothing an animal handler normally wears, will protect them.

 

Dude, 2 1-pip KAs is 2 BODY a phase against an unprotected person with 8 BODY. The killer squirrel can get a kill in 4 phases.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I've been bitten by a squirrel' date=' and it's no cakewalk. However, that 1/2d6 HKA listed in the [i']Bestiary[/i] for Diminutive Mammals is a little misleading. It's built with Reduced Penetration, and the creatures have -5 STR so they can't add any STR damage to it, so they're doing only two 1-pip KA damage with their bite. Any Resistant Defense at all possessed by a human dealing with them, such as the thick clothing an animal handler normally wears, will protect them.

 

And to reiterate, the "cow" writeup in the Bestiary is almost certainly not meant to represent domestic dairy cows and the like. The descriptive text for that entry gives specific examples of "large bovids such as the American bison, cape buffalo, or domestic bull" (p. 142). Also, I think that the animal's resistance to damage is based on the premise of an attacker using Killing weapons, natural or artificial; they have only 2 rPD. I agree that there are some incongruities in the animals' stats, but IMO they're generally not as unrealistic as they might appear at first.

 

I do have to agree with concerns about some of the DEF and BODY totals of vehicle writeups in the Ultimate Vehicle, though. When using any of the prebuilt vehicles in my game, I make one adjustment which works pretty well for me: for vehicles which are more than one hex in area, the listed BODY total for a vehicle applies to each hex. You have to do that much BODY damage to a single hex in order to destroy it, and you have to break all its hexes to destroy the vehicle completely, although it may be rendered inoperable (or sunk in the case of watercraft) before then.

BY the Hex damage is something I did in my old Star Hero campaign (back before there WAS a star hero ) and it can be very dramatic, but it can also get SLOW.

 

The real heck of it all is that I've had an idea for fixing this problem percolating in my brain for something like 2 years now, and it won't QUITE gel. Itegrate the Vehicle design rules and the Base rules, add in the Scales from FH Mass Combat and possibly the Creature Size templates and add a Scale Advatage/limitation similar to Megascale, with some elements of the Automaton rules, perhaps something like a relative Scale based Damage Reduction.....

 

It's almost there. If I had proper motivation and a slightly larger collection of various books, I'd probably be able to wrap it up. As I'm not currently involved in an active game, I haven't had the pressure to make it come together yet.

[OddHat]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Dude' date=' 2 1-pip KAs is 2 BODY a phase against an unprotected person with 8 BODY. The killer squirrel can get a kill in 4 phases.[/quote']

 

Which explains why Squirrel Girl is by far Marvel's toughest heroine.

 

If she'd been in Civil War on Cap's side, the pro-reg crowd would have soiled their tights in terror.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

... unless you hit the gas tank.

 

As that was optional equipment on my trireme, I had the dealer leave it off. Saves on maintenance.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Dude' date=' 2 1-pip KAs is 2 BODY a phase against an unprotected person with 8 BODY. The killer squirrel can get a kill in 4 phases.[/quote']

 

Probably 8 phases if you're using Hit Locations, as they likely can only target a human's arms and legs.

[OddHat]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

... it's more than annoying when your 350 point Superman knockoff can't ignore bullets or smash tanks in one blow: it strains verisimilitude.

 

Well, you could build him at 750 points, or 450 or so but combat optimized. 350 is tough unless you're willing to fiddle with layered frameworks and limitations.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Superman hasn't been a 350 point character for about fifty years. Way back in Action comics #1 he wasn't nearly as tough as he is now. He probably comes out pretty close to 1000 points by now if you go Silver Age with him.

 

I can't see any cannon doing that little damage, but I haven't seen the write-up. I would assume that a three pound cannon ball would do at least enough damage to reliably kill someone with one shot even if they are wearing conventional armor.

 

 

I haven't run a game in a long time, but I wouldn't want my player characters to be embarassed by not being able to take care of everyday obstacles. If the cow is that tough, it needs to be changed or tweaked.

 

On the other hand, there are very few people in comics who can go go head to head with a main battle tank, and none of them are 350 point characters.

To me a 350 point character is a like the original X-Men in the 1960's. Hell, I wouldn't even call the original Fantastic Four from that era 350 pointers. The only more recent example of characters like that that I can come up with are the Young Avengers. They might even by 250 pointers.

[OddHat]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

350 points, he smashes tanks, bounces bullets, and flies (well, leaps and glides).

 

TANK SMASHING BULLET BOUNCER DUDE

 

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

125 STR 115 34- Lift 838.9ktons; 25d6 [12]

17 DEX 21 12- OCV: 6/DCV: 6

23 CON 26 14-

10 BODY 0 11-

8 INT -2 11- PER Roll 11-

8 EGO -4 11- ECV: 3

20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6

14 COM 2 12-

 

35+15 PD 10 Total: 50 PD (43 rPD)

10+15 ED 5 Total: 25 ED (25 rED)

3 SPD 3 Phases: 4, 8, 12

30 REC 0

46 END 0

85 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 186

 

Movement: Running: 6"/12"

Leaping: 27"/54"

Swimming: 2"/4"

 

Cost Powers END

56 Nigh Invulnerable: Armor (15 PD/15 ED), Hardened (+¼) (56 Active Points)

19 Invulnerable. and Nigh: Damage Resistance (28 PD/10 ED)

40 No, Really, He's Nigh Invulnerable: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% (60 Active Points); STUN Only (-½)

20 I did Mention the Nigh Invulnerable Part, Right?: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); STUN Only (-½)

15 Leaping +2" (27" forward, 13 ½" upward) (Accurate), Usable as Gliding (+¼) (15 Active Points) 1

5 Rapid Healing

 

Skills

6 Hates Tanks: +6 with Move Through

1 PS: Bodybuilder 8-

1 PS: Fitness Trainer 8-

1 Streetwise 8-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 164

Total Cost: 350

 

200+ Disadvantages

10 Hunted: Tank Man, the Human Tank 8- (As Pow, Harshly Punish)

10 Hunted: Panzer 8- (As Pow, Harshly Punish)

10 Hunted: International Tank Marketing Consortium 11- (Less Pow, NCI, Mildly Punish)

20 Hunted: VIPER 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)

Notes: For having destroyed so many of their expensive vehicles

10 Psychological Limitation: Loves Smashing Big Things, Especially Tanks (Common, Moderate)

20 Psychological Limitation: Protects the Innocent, Especially From Tanks (Very Common, Strong)

20 Psychological Limitation: Overconfident Braggart and Show Off (Very Common, Strong)

20 Enraged: When Facing Tanks (Common), go 11-, recover 11-

10 Reputation: Super Strong Nigh Invulnerable Idiot, 11-

15 Social Limitation: Secret ID: Buck Manslab, Personal Trainer (Frequently, Major)

5 Dependent NPC: Dara Darling, Fitness Model Girlfriend 8- (Normal; Useful Noncombat Position or Skills)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 350

 

Background/History: Buck Manslab became obsessed with weight training and posing in front of mirrors after his family was killed by tanks. Steroid use triggered his transformation into Tank Smashing Bullet Bouncer Dude. Since that day, he has waged a one man war against the forces of evil, especially the ones in tanks. Buck leads a simple life as a fitness trainer and bodybuilder, partnered with his lovely girlfriend Dara Darling (who also handles most of the business).

 

Personality/Motivation: Buck Manslab is heroic, boastful, and really hates tanks.

 

Quote: Is that a tank?!? Rargh!

 

Powers/Tactics: With a 34d6 move through, 43d6 when diving, TSBBD doesn't really need many other tactics. His OCV is 7 with his normal move through or 4 when diving, but his standard target is a tank, so missing isn't that much of a problem. He'll usually go for the side armor. TSBBD is Nigh Invulnerable; ordinary bullets hitting him by surprise have 1 chance in 216 of getting 17 stun through (2 if he's expecting the attack), and on average will do nothing at all. On the other hand, exotic attacks have a reasonable chance of hurting him.

 

Campaign Use: Joke flying brick that smashes tanks.

 

Appearance: Big, beefy manly man in red, white and blue spandex and a full mask. Big, beefy manly man with blond hair and blue eyes when out of costume.

 

Unless you want to add hit locations, in which case some upgrades are needed for absolute guaranteed bullet bouncing.

[Balabanto]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Dammit, I repped you too recently. That is HILARIOUS!

 

Special bonus points for "Buck Manslab."

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

"I'm NIGH-Invunerable"

 

"Of course you are"

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Probably 8 phases if you're using Hit Locations' date=' as they likely can only target a human's arms and legs.[/quote']

 

By the same token, the squrrel can leap at passing targets from trees, thereby attacking the head and bringing down the sweet human meat with greater ease!

 

Quit apologizing for the Bestiary.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

By the same token, the squrrel can leap at passing targets from trees, thereby attacking the head and bringing down the sweet human meat with greater ease!

 

Quit apologizing for the Bestiary.

 

The problem here is that either the sharp-toothed mammal has at least 1 point killing damage (which is significant when Joe Normal has 8 BOD and no rDEF, especially if the very tactically-minded squirrel leads his squirrelly brethren in an attack from the trees in order to get head shots) or they can do no damage whatsoever - also not fully realistic.

 

The issue pretty much goes away if you play the squirrel like a squirrel, not like a berserker warrior who happens to be in a squirrel's body.

 

[Which reminds me - WHY does Grond want to smash the bovine in question?]

[L. Marcus]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

'Cuz he's mad at it?

[incrdbil]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Flipping through the Viper and until sourcebooks, and looking at their standard rifles, plus the oblgatory heavy weapons agent, I really became aware of how offensively insignificant the average 60 active point, 12 DC starting superhero is.

 

(That UNTIL stuff is really just over the top, in the category of 'go away heroes, you are useless flies in the face of our agent manpower')

 

Why they bother with Unity is a mystery, beyond public relations and publicity.

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

The problem here is that either the sharp-toothed mammal has at least 1 point killing damage (which is significant when Joe Normal has 8 BOD and no rDEF, especially if the very tactically-minded squirrel leads his squirrelly brethren in an attack from the trees in order to get head shots) or they can do no damage whatsoever - also not fully realistic.

 

Why give them KAs at all? Human skin is tough enough to defend against things like cat claws. Just give them a 1d6 Hand to Hand Attack.

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

 

[Which reminds me - WHY does Grond want to smash the bovine in question?]

 

Because the cow's INT is 8, and Grond's is only 5!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Perhaps the small critter writeups in the Bestiary are meant to represent exceptional examples of their species, ones tough enough to cause some problems for hero types? Given the nature of the game, there wouldn't be much point to writing up creatures that could never actually harm a hero. Such beasties would at best provide local color.

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Perhaps the small critter writeups in the Bestiary are meant to represent exceptional examples of their species' date=' ones tough enough to cause some problems for hero types? Given the nature of the game, there wouldn't be much point to writing up creatures that could never actually harm a hero. Such beasties would at best provide local color.[/quote']

 

One could use them for familiars and suchlike.

[incrdbil]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Because the cow's INT is 8' date=' and Grond's is only 5![/quote']

 

Wait..a Cow is listed as having an INT of 8?

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Wait..a Cow is listed as having an INT of 8?

 

My book is it home, but IIRC most of the animals have INTs of 8, and the Limitation "Animal Intelligence" as a Disad.

[Balabanto]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

ZOUNDS! That sounds like a munchkin way to increase the creature's Per roll to me.