Grond vs. A Cow

[Hermit]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Perhaps the small critter writeups in the Bestiary are meant to represent exceptional examples of their species' date=' ones tough enough to cause some problems for hero types? Given the nature of the game, there wouldn't be much point to writing up creatures that could never actually harm a hero. Such beasties would at best provide local color.[/quote']

 

Yes, one must remember HERO often portrays Heroic action in a cinematic fashion. Clearly, the write up of the cow is a HERO Cow... the sort that ends up caught in the Twister movie toranado and takes it stoicly, or has to give sage advice to the pig character 'Babe'. These are ACTION BOVINES, no ordinary cows they... these are the sorts of cows James Bond can rely on to support him as he leaps from the back of one to another, and uses them to crush Commie tanks. These are the types of cows that Conan can punch out without feeling guilty because, by gum, the cow can take it!

 

This isn't your father's cow, this is a HERO Cow, all other cattle hang your heads low!

[L. Marcus]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

. . . It might even be the kind of cow that Mongo can ride!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

OK, I can totally see the Donn Cuailnge and Finnbhennach with 22 Body.

And probably Damage Reduction. They were some SERIOUS bulls.

 

Edit: Linky

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

ZOUNDS! That sounds like a munchkin way to increase the creature's Per roll to me.

 

That actually doesn't bother me. INT is supposed to represent (according to the Bestiary) speed of processing and reacting to information, which beasties are good at. What bothers me is that it is higher than Grond's. I think even the Giant Clam has an 8 INT.

 

Here's why Grond is hitting the cow: using its superior intelligence, the cow suceeded in fooling Grond, perhaps to distract Farmer Ted. Grond discovered this, which triggered his Enraged When He Discovers He's Been Tricked.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

The problem here is that either the sharp-toothed mammal has at least 1 point killing damage (which is significant when Joe Normal has 8 BOD and no rDEF, especially if the very tactically-minded squirrel leads his squirrelly brethren in an attack from the trees in order to get head shots) or they can do no damage whatsoever - also not fully realistic.

 

The issue pretty much goes away if you play the squirrel like a squirrel, not like a berserker warrior who happens to be in a squirrel's body.

 

[Which reminds me - WHY does Grond want to smash the bovine in question?]

 

Yeah. As much as I like the Hero System, I occasionally find things like that, that make me go hmmm. At some point the GM just has to make a ruling so that things don't get too silly. I don't imagine that many people have been mauled by squirrels, so I wouldn't ever play it like that despite what the numbers on the page say. I might be tempted to work in half points of BODY for things like that. You know if you were playing a scenario with a large pack of rats or something. Depends on the scenario.

 

Then again , the normal in question has to go to -8 to actually die, so the question becomes could eight squirrel bites take out an average sized person, causing him/her to "bleed to death."

[SteveZilla]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Look at the Falcon/Hawk and figure out its move-by damage on a full-velocity downward dive-bombing attack (thereby doubling its flight)... :shudder:

 

A 144" straight down full speed dive. At SPD 4, that works out to 214.6 MPH (345.6 KPH)! But it can only do, at most, a Reduced Penetration 1D6 HKA with it's talons.

[Guest Goradin]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Really, I don't think so. Did you figure the KB into your calculations? I think his punch plus KB it would be hamburger.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I noticed last night that the Small Mammals in the Bestiary are capable of killing a grown human being (1/2d6 HKA, SPD 3). Squirrels are indeed a thing of terror.

 

Perhaps it is the "ambient magic" in the CU that has so buffed up the Animal Kingdom.

 

The Diminutive Mammal sheet is meant for things like foxes, raccoons, skunks, etc. Squirrels use the Tiny Mammal sheet, which only has a HKA 1 pip bite. Both have a 2 SPD.

 

What's the "CU"?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

The Diminutive Mammal sheet is meant for things like foxes, raccoons, skunks, etc. Squirrels use the Tiny Mammal sheet, which only has a HKA 1 pip bite. Both have a 2 SPD.

 

What's the "CU"?

Champions Universe.

 

TB

[SteveZilla]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

As that was optional equipment on my trireme' date=' I had the dealer leave it off. Saves on maintenance. [/quote']

 

What, you didn't take the Greek Fire option?

[assault]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Introducing the latest superpet: POWER COW!

[L. Marcus]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I seem to remember an account of a man who went hunting Cape Buffalo with a magnum. It took five shots, apparently, to drop one.

 

So, yes, they're tough customers!

 

And as far as for vehicles -- an arrow shouldn't be able to penetrate a ship's hull, but I see that as covered by the Real Weapon Limitation. If the archer got a great damage roll, I'd let it do one BODY on a larger vessel.

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

A 144" straight down full speed dive. At SPD 4' date=' that works out to 214.6 MPH (345.6 KPH)! But it can only do, at most, a Reduced Penetration 1D6 HKA with it's talons.[/quote']

 

If it were to ram something, that would be an almost 50d6 Move Through. I think it would wipe out a tank.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

. . . Thank goodness it doesn't have that much BODY!

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Introducing the latest superpet: POWER COW!

 

It sure would have some cleavage for the magic cleavage window.

[Vondy]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Personally, this is the result of truing to make hero "universal" instead of using it as a "toolkit," which is both what it is and what it is marketed as being. In terms of genre, scales vary and one size doesn't fit all. Hero can do just about any genre well, but a prerequisite for that is fine-tuning the mechanics and carefully evaluating the scale for simulation purposes. If you don't it breaks down like a yugo at 100+ MPH on a saharan off-road trek in the height of summer. A camel would be a better choice. This thinking is inherent in the entire "meta-setting" concept, which is horribly flawed in my opinion (and old gripe and the horse is long dead... but there it is) and indicates a universal (dare I say palladium-esque in magnitude?) approach rather than a genre by genre toolkit approach.

[Silbeg]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I tend towards exactly the opposite direction, probably because NCM for humans is 20 Body, and no matter how hard I try and wrap my head around the idea, I can't see anyone out side of a superheroic scale being able to soak as much damage as the nonliving comparisons.

 

A bovine should be harder to kill than a person...they weigh 10 times as much as we do.

A Greek Trireme warship shouldn't even be in the same ballpark.

 

That and the cannon problem... the vehilces are designed to kinda scale with ech other, but this leads to absurdities at the lower end of the scale because the top end tries to still be "vunerable" to superheroic attacks.

If you want a Super packing only 12-15 DC to be a credible threat to things like battleships or tanks, and in turn to be able to survive fighting them, you need to go with a "fragile world" approach like LL suggests, or you need to set the bar unnaturally low for defences, attacks and body. Then, when you try and bechmark lower tech agaist the same stats you wind up with absurdities like the 1d6+1 RKA 3 pound cannon.

 

The way I deal with the scaling issues like this are to treat vehicles and buildings in a similar manner. Take a Bradley APC for example. It is 10DEF and 18 BODY. Taken on its own, that would make it weaker than most supers. However, if you factor in its size (using the building rules), then 18 BODY is where it starts to have a chance to malfunction. It may be that these rules were introduced in Champions Battlegrounds, I cannot remember. As GM, perhaps you rule that the Bradley can actually take 3X its body...

 

So, when Grond hits the Bradley for 18 BODY (easy enough for him to do), it may not be instantly "killed". At that point, it is in trouble, and everything it does will get a 14- Jammed roll (or whatever). With each multiplier, the damage gets worse (the penalties get worse). There is more you can do, introducing additional complications, but realism.

 

 

Then, you can rule that anti-vehicular weapons do damage more effectively than "normal" weapons. This is probably becaus they have AE... or whatever. On the other hand, a 7d6+1 RKA (128mm Antitank round from WW2) is probably lethal enough? It is the smaller scale weapons that likely need adjusting. A 3-pounder probably needs to be more DCs... maybe 4d6 RKA? Take the .50 cal as a base (with is 3d6+1, I believe).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

If it were to ram something' date=' that would be an almost 50d6 Move Through. I think it would wipe out a tank.[/quote']

 

The Eagle/Hawk and the Falcon builds both have a limitation on their extra Flight: "Only to Dive At Prey For Move-Bys(-1). So no 214 MPH Move-Throughs.

 

But otherwise, I would say that like an object used to inflict damage, the Move-Through damage is limited by it's BODY + DEF (or PD). Why should something softer than an object be able to do more damage than the object?

 

Otherwise, my next TechnoMage character will have a Summon Slavishly Devoted CyberFalcons. He'll command them to Kamikaze his enemies!

 

I will summon 4 slavishly devoted 100 pt CyberFalcons, each able to do a 48d6 move-though. Not too shabby for a 60 AP Power.

[palaskar]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Vestnik wrote:

I think even the Giant Clam has an 8 INT.

 

Man, I just can't stop laughing at that one. I keep imagining scenes where the Giant Clam tricks Grond with its superior inteligence.

 

Stevezilla wrote:

Otherwise, my next TechnoMage character will have a Summon Slavishly Devoted CyberFalcons. He'll command them to Kamikaze his enemies!

 

I will summon 4 slavishly devoted 100 pt CyberFalcons, each able to do a 48d6 move-though. Not too shabby for a 60 AP Power.

 

This is great too. Not quite as funny as the Giant Clam, though.

 

How do you rep here?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Man, I just can't stop laughing at that one. I keep imagining scenes where the Giant Clam tricks Grond with its superior inteligence.

 

"My plan is working. As that lummox blunders around on the sea floor, he stirs up organic sediments into the water, which I can then filter out for my dinner. MWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!"

[SteveZilla]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Man' date=' I just can't stop laughing at that one. I keep imagining scenes where the Giant Clam tricks Grond with its superior intelligence.[/quote']

 

Grond Shuck Puny Clam!

 

This is great too. Not quite as funny as the Giant Clam, though.

 

How do you rep here?

 

You click on the scales on the top-right of the post you want to give rep for. Then just fill in the blank.

 

And thanks!

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

The Eagle/Hawk and the Falcon builds both have a limitation on their extra Flight: "Only to Dive At Prey For Move-Bys(-1). So no 214 MPH Move-Throughs.

 

But that makes no sense. They get super-fast if there is prey in the line of sight, but can't fly at that speed normally? And what happens if they miss the target and keep going into the busload of orphans inconveniently located just behind it?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

But that makes no sense. They get super-fast if there is prey in the line of sight' date=' but can't fly at that speed normally?[/quote']

 

It makes perfect sense. The Peregrine Falcon (for example) is *built* for diving attacks. It can't fly nearly as fast going straight-n-level as it can achieve with Gravity's' help in a dive.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_falcon

 

And what happens if they miss the target and keep going into the busload of orphans inconveniently located just behind it?

 

Then it goes splat on the roof, making a big dent or possibly a small hole? Though I think they can gauge their trajectory well enough so that they leave plenty of room to pull out of the dive.

[Vondy]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

If you've ever watched a falcon strike running prey on the ground they pull off some pretty death defying maneuvers. Evolution turned them into crazy-insane combat pilots. They come down almost vertical (not quite) at a full dive, make a split second course correction into an angle as they make their pass, and then angle upward almost immediately on the strike. In other words, while they wouldn't be going at a full dive on impact due to course corrections, they'd still be going well beyond their normal flight speed. Its an impressive feat. And that's on a rabbit who is lower to the ground and a harder, more frentic target that a nice knight in shiny armor who smells like tuna and makes a nice juicy target on a fly-by-can-opening-attack. It be broke, Jimbo.

 

Von "lots of wild kingdom as a kid" D-Man

[SteveZilla]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Cows in tanks = The CU's Ultimate Warriors

 

"Thirty feet tall and weighing up to a hundred tons, this engine of destruction is a walking arsenal with enough firepower to level a city block. It's CattleTech!"