Grond vs. A Cow

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Or is that the wrong approach, and its the write up off vehicles and creatures that needs to be changed?

 

If you reduce the write ups of vehicles and animals, Heroic level action gets all screwed up.

 

Of course, increasing the power level of supers makes agent level threats into agent level nonthreats.

 

I think the best workaround is for the GM to just say "Grond punches the cow; it dies."

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

But the write ups do need work.

Look at the Cannons in TUV.

up to an pounder does a 1d6+1 RKA.

Same as a .38 special.

Now go watch the Mythbusters Pirate Special and watch what a (IIRC) 3 pounder does to both a solid Oak bulkhead, and to a ballistics gelatin dummy.

 

Those cannon are grossly underpowered. In my games, I increase their damage and give ships Damage Reduction so they're not sunk by a swivel gun.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

If it should ever come up, I'd handle the attacks on vehicles thing by stating that personal-scale weapons can't directly affect the BODY of a vehicle--only the BODY of individual hexes.

 

If (and I'm just pulling numbers out of my head here) a ship has a volume of 200 hexes and 20 BODY, that swivel gun is going to have to shred 10 hexes before it does 1 BODY to the ship, whereas a vehicle-scale weapon (a cannon) would be able to damage the ship's BODY directly, if it penetrated.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

That works fine for vehicular combat, but a 1d6+1 cannon hitting a person is still messed up. That's the same damage a good many characters do with a knife.

[1EyedJack]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

What about Grond vs that chicken eating cow? would its bite constute an HKA ?

[OddHat]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

It just seems that heroic levels passed off as very powerful actually corresponds with fairly weaker, street type heroes. This has been reinforced more by the power inflation of suppllements liek Until and Vper, which give agents blaster weaposn easiyl rivalling, or exceeding the attacks of starting baseline heroes.

 

A character whose main attack is comparable to a blaster rifle from an agent is maybe a hero, but I dont know if I can call them a superhero.

 

This I pretty much agree with. When mid range agents are as or more powerful than starting supers, either the recommended starting levels are off for supers or the design goal is to simulate comics where no name mooks regularly thrash Superheroes.

 

Maybe I should switch the game back over to to the old DC mayfair system--these discussiosn are increasing my doubt in HERO being able to do high powered games in an efficient manner, much less the problems with valid scalings of the damage dealing and taking abilities of heroes, vehicles, and the environment surrounding them.

 

This I somewhat disagree with. You can do high power heroes well in HERO system; you just have to be willing to budget the points and set the campaign guidelines to allow it.

 

The Algernon Files for HERO has some very good write ups reflecting what characters in a High Powered Heroes setting might look like, or you might look at my Defilers thread; most of the builds there would work well enough for Avengers level Heroes if you tweaked the psych limits and origins.

[assault]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I'm thinking about the next game I run being a 'true super scale'..with bricks whose punches rival the stats of main tanks in physical damage. Energy blasters will have the punch to brun through main battle tank armor' date=' with ease.and the defenses of everyone in question will be scaled to handle that.[/quote']

 

The issue that gets pointed out every time is: what do you do with the characters that don't have those kind of defences in the source material?

 

A good half of the classic JLA weren't bulletproof. Nor were most of the LSH. Nor were many of the early members of the Avengers.

 

Of course you can fix a lot by using Combat Luck and similar scams, but even so...

 

The real answer is probably lies in scenario design.

[OddHat]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

The issue that gets pointed out every time is: what do you do with the characters that don't have those kind of defences in the source material?

 

A good half of the classic JLA weren't bulletproof. Nor were most of the LSH. Nor were many of the early members of the Avengers.

 

Of course you can fix a lot by using Combat Luck and similar scams, but even so...

 

I don't see combat luck as a scam. We've seen Legion, JLA and Avengers characters who aren't bullet proof get punched through walls without dying or suffering broken bones for a few decades. Either the walls are amazingly flimsy, or those characters have tons of defenses that mysteriously fail when the plot calls for it. Similarly, look at big budget action films; Anne in Jackson's King Kong takes abuse that should kill her stone dead without even a scratch or bruise. Combat Luck's as good a way as any to explain it in a game.

 

The real answer is probably lies in scenario design.

 

This is true as well.

[jtelson]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Routinely downgrading agent equipment fromt he sourcebooks has gotten tiring (i mean' date=' reall, Dr Destroyer is much more of a threat to a team as a large group of his agents and killer robots. I know some teams that would rather face DD alone than 50 or 60 of his agents. [/quote']

 

Don't even bother - you're generally better off taking the concept and building from the ground up in a manner that's appropriate to your group's play style. I starting playing when there was just the Champion's book and as it relates to our style of play (and only as it relates to our style of play) the Hero Team's character designs haven't improved any in the last couple of decades. The game's good (despite the ever increasing problems at the low end of the power scale) just use it's strengths chief amoung which is the ability to completely make it your own.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Grond VS a Cow

 

 

This makes me think of the scene in Starship Troopers where they put a cow in with a Warrior bug......

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I suppose I should Link to my own recent proposals on this subject, in case someone here didn't see them previously: Integrating "normal" things into a "Super" world.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

The whole thing makes me recall a picture I'd love to see someone draw of Grond in a McDonald's uniform, saying, "You want fries with that!" (Optional caption at the bottom: "It's not a question....")

 

Anyhow, I'm inclined to think that Grond would be more likely to throw a cow than punch it. I don't know why; it just seems that way to me.

[The Weapon]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Grond should beware the cow from Kung Pao: Enter The Fist. It knows kung fu.

 

Or worse,

 

Fat and docile, big and dumb

They look so stupid, they aren't much fun

Cows aren't fun

They eat to grow, grow to die

Die to be et at the hamburger fry

Cows well done

Nobody thunk it, nobody knew

No one imagined the great cow guru

Cows are one

He hid in the forest, read books with great zeal

He loved Che Guevera, a revolutionary veal

Cow Se Tongue

He spoke about justice, but nobody stirred

He felt like an outcast, alone in the herd

Cow doldrums

He mooed we must fight, escape or we'll die

Cows gathered around, cause the steaks were so high

Bad cow pun

But then he was captured, stuffed into a crate

Loaded onto a truck, where he rode to his fate

Cows are bummed

He was a scrawny calf, who looked rather woozy

No one suspected he was packing an Uzi

Cows with guns

They came with a needle to stick in his thigh

He kicked for the groin, he pissed in their eye

Cow well hung

Knocked over a tractor and ran for the door

Six gallons of gas flowed out on the floor

Run cows run!

He picked up a bullhorn and jumped up on the hay

We are free roving bovines, we run free today

We will fight for bovine freedom

And hold our large heads high

We will run free with the Buffalo, or die

Cows with guns

They crashed the gate in a great stampede

Tipped over a milk truck, torched all the feed

Cows have fun

Sixty police cars were piled in a heap

Covered in cow pies, covered up deep

Much cow dung

Black smoke rising, darkening the day

Twelve burning McDonalds, have it your way

The President said "enough is enough

These uppity cattle, its time to get tough"

Cow dung flung

The newspapers gloated, folks sighed with relief

Tomorrow at noon, they would all be ground beef

Cows on buns

The cows were surrounded, they waited and prayed

They mooed their last moos,

they chewed their last hay

Cows outgunned

The order was given to turn cows to whoppers

Enforced by the might of ten thousand coppers

But on the horizon surrounding the shoppers

Came the deafening roar of chickens in choppers

 

:Lyons Dana - Cows With Guns :

[The Weapon]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

People, let's be serious. This thread is getting udderly ridiculous. I know everyone wants to milk this for all it's worth, but it's frankly getting a bit cheesy. I swear, if I hear one more cow-related joke, I'm going to let out a blood-curdling sCream. If this thread doesn't get put out to pasture, we might have to ask an admin to moooooove it to NGD. At least try to steer it on-topic.

 

Sorry. I've always had a bit of a beef with these sorts of threads. Apologies for having such a cow about this.

 

Yoghurt that right, I only skimmed your post but you think you're better than us, stop acting so ahoof. It's pointless getting made at a forum thread, you can't beat it up, you can't ostracise it, and you can't suet. If we just calm down veal all be better off.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Yoghurt that right' date=' I only skimmed your post but you think you're better than us, stop acting so ahoof. It's pointless getting made at a forum thread, you can't beat it up, you can't ostracise it, and you can't suet. If we just calm down veal all be better off.[/quote']Actually I think it would work best if we try to keep it half and half.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Yoghurt that right' date=' I only skimmed your post but you think you're better than us, stop acting so ahoof. It's pointless getting made at a forum thread, you can't beat it up, you can't ostracise it, and you can't suet. If we just calm down veal all be better off.[/quote']

Sounds like bull to me.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

After reading too much of this thread I may need to take a lactaid.

[Chuk]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Actually' date=' that would be ground chuck. [/quote']

 

Ground who?

[Vondy]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Cows with guns!

 

On the other hand, the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread title was: that's a very interesting way of referring to Taurus from the Zodiac Conspiracy.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Grond's a loser.

Poor Grond.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Wanna make Grond mad? Ask him to do some arithmetics.

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I noticed last night that the Small Mammals in the Bestiary are capable of killing a grown human being (1/2d6 HKA, SPD 3). Squirrels are indeed a thing of terror.

 

Perhaps it is the "ambient magic" in the CU that has so buffed up the Animal Kingdom.

[Mister E]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

hmmmmm....

 

Bison/Cattle. 22 Body, according to the Bestiary.

 

Object Breakage table, FREd. Living/Vehicle 22 Body= 400 tons.

 

TUV. Trireme warship: 22 Body.

 

 

 

Nahh... there aren't any scale inconsistancies in this system

 

Nailed it. However I think the cow's build is off, and the system is fine. The Bestiary is a great reference, but it needs work, imo. I treat it like I treat all the resource books... get the general sense of the subject and it's build, then modify to make it consistent with my game's paradigm. I think the vehicle source books are pretty darn-near perfect, though.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

Nailed it. However I think the cow's build is off' date=' and the system is fine. The Bestiary is a great reference, but it needs work, imo. I treat it like I treat all the resource books... get the general sense of the subject and it's build, then modify to make it consistent with my game's paradigm. I think the vehicle source books are pretty darn-near perfect, though.[/quote']

 

I tend towards exactly the opposite direction, probably because NCM for humans is 20 Body, and no matter how hard I try and wrap my head around the idea, I can't see anyone out side of a superheroic scale being able to soak as much damage as the nonliving comparisons.

 

A bovine should be harder to kill than a person...they weigh 10 times as much as we do.

A Greek Trireme warship shouldn't even be in the same ballpark.

 

That and the cannon problem... the vehilces are designed to kinda scale with ech other, but this leads to absurdities at the lower end of the scale because the top end tries to still be "vunerable" to superheroic attacks.

If you want a Super packing only 12-15 DC to be a credible threat to things like battleships or tanks, and in turn to be able to survive fighting them, you need to go with a "fragile world" approach like LL suggests, or you need to set the bar unnaturally low for defences, attacks and body. Then, when you try and bechmark lower tech agaist the same stats you wind up with absurdities like the 1d6+1 RKA 3 pound cannon.

[Vondy]

Re: Grond vs. A Cow

 

I noticed last night that the Small Mammals in the Bestiary are capable of killing a grown human being (1/2d6 HKA, SPD 3). Squirrels are indeed a thing of terror.

 

Perhaps it is the "ambient magic" in the CU that has so buffed up the Animal Kingdom.

 

 

Look at the Falcon/Hawk and figure out its move-by damage on a full-velocity downward dive-bombing attack (thereby doubling its flight)... :shudder: