Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

[MicroMike]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

It was just the first phase 12 in a combat. I'm not sure why, something I had done for years without question.

 

Now I do full actions on 12, and all is right with the world.

[Vondy]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I allow them to do anything they could do on any other phase.

 

There is nothing unique about segment/phase-12, nor is their anything unique about the cases you posit.

[pinecone]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Sight tangent here-I've always allowed players to only take a 1/2 phase on 12. Instead of move and shoot, it's move or shoot.

 

Is that a stupid thing to do?

 

Nah, differant is not stupid, it's just differant...

[Vondy]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Sight tangent here-I've always allowed players to only take a 1/2 phase on 12. Instead of move and shoot, it's move or shoot.

 

Is that a stupid thing to do?

 

Without knowing the underlying logic for your house rule I have no way of evaluating its merit.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

The way I play it is this: in an ambush situation, or any situation where one side doesn't know that combat is coming, the surprised side doesn't get to act in the initial phase 12. In normal combat, everyone gets to act normally on the initial phase 12.

 

Having everyone act gets the combat off to a rousing start, and makes sure no one is left out.

[Balabanto]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Here's how I handle phase 12.

 

The Brawling Balabanto says that people tend to take unfair advantage of the fact that Phase 12 allows you an instant recovery.

 

This leads to numerous Haymakers, excessive amounts of pushing, and more plots than you can count crushed due to excessive manipulation of the combat rules. I understand that a lot of people don't find that particularly noxious, but I did, so I did something about it.

 

Haymakers: Go ahead. But I've restricted this ability to make it a bit more 4th editiony. You can't Haymaker attacks which can't reasonably be haymakered. Plus, the target can always move. And if he moves...well...it's over.

 

Pushing: This is where the Phase 12 system really falls on it's face, I'll be honest. Pushing should only be done at dramatically appropriate moments. As a result, Pushing in my games is restricted. There was simply too much push/instant recovery going on. The house rule reads as follows. NO PUSHING DURING THE FIRST COMBAT TURN!

 

On the next Phase 12, the ability to push begins. This allows for a reasonable amount of time for combat, and allows for dramatically appropriate endings. Warning. The villains can push too.

 

Holding until Phase 1: Go ahead. You just lost the ability to recover that extra END. If people really keep doing this, go back and look at a Villain called Phosgene. I still use him. All that AOE End Transfer will make your players think twice.

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Here's how I handle phase 12.

 

The Brawling Balabanto says that people tend to take unfair advantage of the fact that Phase 12 allows you an instant recovery.

 

This leads to numerous Haymakers, excessive amounts of pushing, and more plots than you can count crushed due to excessive manipulation of the combat rules. I understand that a lot of people don't find that particularly noxious, but I did, so I did something about it.

 

Haymakers: Go ahead. But I've restricted this ability to make it a bit more 4th editiony. You can't Haymaker attacks which can't reasonably be haymakered. Plus, the target can always move. And if he moves...well...it's over.

 

Of course "reasonable" is a matter of interp. And as you point out, the target can always move. Don't see a problem here, though I'll note that if you haymaker on 12, you don't actually attack until 1. So you don't spend the END for the attack until 1. So you've lost that first post 12 REC that everyone else got. Seems pretty self limiting...

 

Pushing: This is where the Phase 12 system really falls on it's face, I'll be honest. Pushing should only be done at dramatically appropriate moments. As a result, Pushing in my games is restricted. There was simply too much push/instant recovery going on. The house rule reads as follows. NO PUSHING DURING THE FIRST COMBAT TURN!

 

On the next Phase 12, the ability to push begins. This allows for a reasonable amount of time for combat, and allows for dramatically appropriate endings. Warning. The villains can push too.

 

And I've seen plenty of dramatically appropriate moments in the first Phase of combat. Again, each to their own. I certainly expect villains (especially major ones) to push too. I have never seen any reason or need to put an artificial restriction on pushing. It tends to be pretty self limiting.

 

Holding until Phase 1: Go ahead. You just lost the ability to recover that extra END. If people really keep doing this' date=' go back and look at a Villain called Phosgene. I still use him. All that AOE End Transfer will make your players think twice. [/quote']

 

I've never understood why anyone would voluntarily give up the ability to basically get an END free first attack. If someone wants to delay their 12 to 1, I'll certainly allow them to. Much like if someone wants to not use their skill levels I'll let them do that too.

[bwdemon]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I like to start on Segment 12, but I don't like the PS12 Recovery mechanic (even though every game I've played in or run used it). Remove the free recovery and I think I'd like it a bit more. Characters would have to take breathers from time to time, rather than enjoying a free pick-me-up every 12 seconds.

[mattingly]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

NO PUSHING DURING THE FIRST COMBAT TURN!

I let players push any time, but they have to succeed at an EGO Roll to push by 5, and succeed by half to push by 10. The full END is spent for the attempt, even if the EGO Roll fails.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

......................

I've never understood why anyone would voluntarily give up the ability to basically get an END free first attack. If someone wants to delay their 12 to 1, I'll certainly allow them to. Much like if someone wants to not use their skill levels I'll let them do that too.

 

The logic, if that is what it is, goes like this:

 

YES I don't get to recover the END for that attack,

 

BUT the target does not get to recover any STUN if the attack succeeds.

 

This means that next turn I take 6 actions instead of my normal 5 (or whatever) before the target can get a recovery, which may put him down faster than hitting him now and allowing him to get 15 stun back immediately after.

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

The logic, if that is what it is, goes like this:

 

YES I don't get to recover the END for that attack,

 

BUT the target does not get to recover any STUN if the attack succeeds.

 

This means that next turn I take 6 actions instead of my normal 5 (or whatever) before the target can get a recovery, which may put him down faster than hitting him now and allowing him to get 15 stun back immediately after.

 

Or may just run you out of END faster. I've heard the argument before, I just don't agree with it.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Or may just run you out of END faster. I've heard the argument before' date=' I just don't agree with it. [/quote']

 

I use that on a fairly regular basis, but I tend to run martial artist with decent damage, but use almost no end. So the tradeoff of the end from the recovery vs their stun on a recovery is almost always in my favor.

 

Many of my characters are built that they could run 5 turns without running out of end. I have two that could fight normally forever and never run out of end.

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I use that on a fairly regular basis, but I tend to run martial artist with decent damage, but use almost no end. So the tradeoff of the end from the recovery vs their stun on a recovery is almost always in my favor.

 

Many of my characters are built that they could run 5 turns without running out of end. I have two that could fight normally forever and never run out of end.

 

The question is, if you pushed would you do more extra damage than they would recover while still being good on END. And if there are thugs involved, would you be able to take one (or maybe more) entirely out by acting on 12 rather than letting them act first. Or possibly stun someone that you act before on 12, losing them an action. Or any number of other reasons.

 

Then again, I also frequently build characters that at base can go quite some time without worrying about END, but can up their damage at the cost of extra END without having to resort to pushing.

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

If anything I have noticed a tendancy for people to do their pushing during that first segment 12' date=' since right afterwords they get a full recovery.[/quote']

 

The rules have a built in caveat for the pushing thing.

 

FRED pg 427 - "Pushing is only for crucial, heroic, or life-saving actions. Characters cannot Push whenever they want to just look impressive."

 

And...

 

"The GM Determines whether a character can Push in a given situation."

 

My point is only rarely would I allow a Phase 12 Push at the initial start of combat unles it meets these requirements.

 

Under 4th Ed rules in our game, it was far too common a war cry of "12d6 Energy Blast... Pushed!"

 

FRED has nicely taken care of this!

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

The rules have a built in caveat for the pushing thing.

 

FRED pg 427 - "Pushing is only for crucial, heroic, or life-saving actions. Characters cannot Push whenever they want to just look impressive."

 

And...

 

"The GM Determines whether a character can Push in a given situation."

 

My point is only rarely would I allow a Phase 12 Push at the initial start of combat unles it meets these requirements.

 

Under 4th Ed rules in our game, it was far too common a war cry of "12d6 Energy Blast... Pushed!"

 

FRED has nicely taken care of this!

 

And I frequently allow it. "Heroic" is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

 

I'll also point out that the same page mentions that Pushing in Superheroic settings is much more common. And that in unusual circumstances a push of more than 10 points might be appropriate.

 

In heroic level campaigns I certainly view pushing as a rare occurance, and strictly require EGO rolls to complete. I often use a house rule that you can only push by 2x the amount you make your ego roll by, but not always. But in superheroic campaigns I allow a lot more lattitude and pretty much limit pushing only by how much END they can afford to pump into it.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Haymakers: Go ahead. But I've restricted this ability to make it a bit more 4th editiony. You can't Haymaker attacks which can't reasonably be haymakered. Plus' date=' the target can always move. And if he moves...well...it's over.[/quote']

I don't think any restriction is needed here. In addition to what archermoo said, anyone who held their phase 12 action can do a half-move (you miss), and then attack you while you're at -5 DCV.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

On the question of 'to hold or not to hold' on the first segment 12, surely that is a tactical matter for the specific character, or maybe a role playing consideration. I don't think that one approach can be right or wrong, except in context.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Personally I don't think that the game would suffer if you did not allow held actions at all, or only for very specific purposes: I raise the sword and wait for someone to step through the door then hit them with it; yes. I wait and see what he is going to do before I decide what to do; no.

 

That is to say, I think that if you are going to delay or hold a phase you should have to declare what you are going to do with that action when you first had the opportunity to take it, and you cannot change that declaration until you next have a phase. Holding phases always struck me as quite unrealistic.

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

The HERO System Combat Handbook has some great rules for Held Actions and such.

 

An example: A player having a held action and waiting to see what the villain does, then just as the villain goes to attack, the player calls out that he wants his action right then. This would usually require a DEX Roll with the character making the roll by more going first.

 

Say the villain wins the Roll...

 

What of the player with the Held Action? Can he then change his mind and Abort to a Dodge or Dive for Cover?

 

I found this under Who Goes First on Page 20 of the Combat Handbook:

 

 

Consequences Of Losing The DEX Roll

If two characters use DEX Rolls to determine who acts first, the loser of the roll cannot then choose to Abort to a defensive Action — committing to the roll means the chance to Abort is lost.

The character has staked his chances on getting to act first, and having failed to do so, has to live with the consequences. In some cases, the GM may even want the characters to specify what Actions they’re attempting, and what powers or attacks they’re using, before letting them make their DEX Rolls. The losing Character has already stated, in effect, (a) that he’s attacking, ( what attack he’s using, and © where he’s aiming. He can’t change just because the winner got lucky, saw it coming, and moved away. However, the losing character can,

if hit, declare that he’s Rolling With The Punch (if appropriate).

Similarly, if a character loses a DEX Roll Contest to determine who acts first, and the target of his attack moves out of the original hex he was in, the character cannot “re-target” his attack to “track” the target and still hit him.

 

 

I think this is great! Again, my players were often using held actions and trying to take advantage of the Speed chart to do their Actions with as little risk to them as possible. I've always felt that this was a weakness to HERO System... the Speed Chart and how it could be manipulated to a clever players advantage.

 

What do you all think?

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

The HERO System Combat Handbook has some great rules for Held Actions and such.

 

An example: A player having a held action and waiting to see what the villain does, then just as the villain goes to attack, the player calls out that he wants his action right then. This would usually require a DEX Roll with the character making the roll by more going first.

 

Say the villain wins the Roll...

 

What of the player with the Held Action? Can he then change his mind and Abort to a Dodge or Dive for Cover?

 

I found this under Who Goes First on Page 20 of the Combat Handbook:

 

 

Consequences Of Losing The DEX Roll

If two characters use DEX Rolls to determine who acts first, the loser of the roll cannot then choose to Abort to a defensive Action — committing to the roll means the chance to Abort is lost.

The character has staked his chances on getting to act first, and having failed to do so, has to live with the consequences. In some cases, the GM may even want the characters to specify what Actions they’re attempting, and what powers or attacks they’re using, before letting them make their DEX Rolls. The losing Character has already stated, in effect, (a) that he’s attacking, ( what attack he’s using, and © where he’s aiming. He can’t change just because the winner got lucky, saw it coming, and moved away. However, the losing character can,

if hit, declare that he’s Rolling With The Punch (if appropriate).

Similarly, if a character loses a DEX Roll Contest to determine who acts first, and the target of his attack moves out of the original hex he was in, the character cannot “re-target” his attack to “track” the target and still hit him.

 

 

I think this is great! Again, my players were often using held actions and trying to take advantage of the Speed chart to do their Actions with as little risk to them as possible. I've always felt that this was a weakness to HERO System... the Speed Chart and how it could be manipulated to a clever players advantage.

 

What do you all think?

 

As a note, that section is taken from the core rules book. 5ER p360.

[lemming]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

I'm not sure I understand what advantage is gained by not acting on the initial segment 12. If anything I have noticed a tendancy for people to do their pushing during that first segment 12' date=' since right afterwords they get a full recovery.[/quote']

The advantage of hitting someone on segment 1 is that they don't get the benefit of the post 12. (Of course, that's gaming the system.)

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

The advantage of hitting someone on segment 1 is that they don't get the benefit of the post 12. (Of course' date=' that's gaming the system.)[/quote']

 

But then again neither do you.

[Balabanto]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

The problem with the haymakering attacks that cannot be reasonably haymakered is this.

 

Who is usually DOING the Haymaker?

 

The guy doing the haymaker is the brick. His dex is 18-20. Everyone else has already acted. So unless he's fighting agents (In which case, he doesn't NEED to Haymaker), WHO CARES WHAT HIS DCV IS?

 

If his DCV becomes 1, unless someone held to stop the brick from Haymakering, his DCV might as well be 1000. If there's no one there to stop the brick from haymakering, so what? Most Bricks are tough, strong, and knockback resistant. If he gets hit, unless he gets hit with an attack powerful enough to wipe him out (unlikely), that Haymaker is landing.

Furthermore, he can use his STR to resist KB in the direction of the guy who is holding to stop the Haymaker.

 

Haymaker lands.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

The problem with the haymakering attacks that cannot be reasonably haymakered is this.

 

Who is usually DOING the Haymaker?

 

The guy doing the haymaker is the brick. His dex is 18-20. Everyone else has already acted. So unless he's fighting agents (In which case, he doesn't NEED to Haymaker), WHO CARES WHAT HIS DCV IS?

 

If his DCV becomes 1, unless someone held to stop the brick from Haymakering, his DCV might as well be 1000. If there's no one there to stop the brick from haymakering, so what? Most Bricks are tough, strong, and knockback resistant. If he gets hit, unless he gets hit with an attack powerful enough to wipe him out (unlikely), that Haymaker is landing.

Furthermore, he can use his STR to resist KB in the direction of the guy who is holding to stop the Haymaker.

 

Haymaker lands.

 

Are you referring to a character Haymakering an attack on phase 12 (which lands at the end of the next phase 1)?

 

If so the targeted character can easily avoid the attack by aborting to Dive For Cover 1 or 2 inches away (if that optional maneuver is being used).

[archermoo]

Re: Phase 12, GM's what do you allow?

 

Are you referring to a character Haymakering an attack on phase 12 (which lands at the end of the next phase 1)?

 

If so the targeted character can easily avoid the attack by aborting to Dive For Cover 1 or 2 inches away (if that optional maneuver is being used).

 

Not to mention that the DCV deficit for haymakering lasts until their next Phase. Unless of course they abort their next action for a defensive action. And is his DEX is the lowest as Balabanto suggests, even if his SPD isn't any lower than anyone elses his Phase still doesn't start until after theirs, so he'll still have the deficit when they go next.