The Heart of Hero

[Sean Waters]

I was thinking today (I won't go into the chain of thought that led to this one: you want to be able to get to sleep tonight), about what it is that makes a game a 'Hero' game, for me, from a rules/mechanics standpoint?

 

There are some elements, like the character creation system are pretty much unique to Hero, although there are now some pale imitations out there.

 

However, I don't feel that you need to use the creation system to have a 'Hero' game - you can do just as well with a pregenerated character.

 

Similarly the Speed system is unique to Hero (and a major feature, to my mind) but you can pretty much do away with it by having everyone take the same speed. However the interplay of phases and recoveries does flavour the game, sot his may be a 'core' feature.

 

The only two elements that I could think of that really made me feel I was playing Hero were the combat resolution system (OCV v DCV, roll low on 3d6) AND the use of 'normal' dice i.e. roll xd6 and count both the total and the 'Body' total, thus enabling you to extract more information from a single roll.

 

This might mot make a lot of sense, but if you do divine what I'm ambling toward, what is your view? Are tehre other 'core' elements of Hero that define a Hero game, or have I got mine wrong?

 

What IS the Heart of Hero?

[BNakagawa]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

I'm not sure it would qualify as the heart of hero, but it is something that hero pioneered all those years ago.

 

reason from effect. (build your powers from components, tailor to fit)

 

and

 

the frequency/severity definition of freeform disads. (how often+how bad = point value)

 

and for that matter:

 

Disads.

 

AFAIK, these elements were first pioneered in Champions.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

On a "Per Game" basis, Hero isn't much different from any other game out there. a Fantasy Hero Game could be simulated with something else, or Fantasy Hero can be used to simulate something else.

 

Reasoning From Effect is to me the very heart of Hero as a System. That's the concept that allows you to take a ruleset and make anything you can think of. This is the underlying philosophy that translates into gameplay as well as being integral to the creation of the Game and Characters.

[Flames]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

Another key element that I find in HERO System is that supplements provide, among other things, minor tweaks to the existing rules base to add flavor and detail to a campaign, rather than deluging it with entire new sets of rules that govern an entire race, class, or genre.

[tancred]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

 

and for that matter:

 

Disads.

 

AFAIK, these elements were first pioneered in Champions.

 

Actually, there was at least one point-based system that had a Disadvantages system before Champions.

The Fantasy Trip allowed you to take Disadvantages (although I don't remember which term it actually called them) to gain additional points to improve your abilities.

 

TFT was published in 1980. It was (at least partially) designed by Steve Jackson, and looked like an early version of GURPS.

Good game system.

[BNakagawa]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

Actually, there was at least one point-based system that had a Disadvantages system before Champions.

The Fantasy Trip allowed you to take Disadvantages (although I don't remember which term it actually called them) to gain additional points to improve your abilities.

 

TFT was published in 1980. It was (at least partially) designed by Steve Jackson, and looked like an early version of GURPS.

Good game system.

 

The disads for TFT came out in a Space Gamer article and were not actually part of the ruleset. In other words, house rules. This article was published in 1982, more than likely influenced by Champions.

[Knightmare]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

The disads for TFT came out in a Space Gamer article and were not actually part of the ruleset. In other words' date=' house rules. This article was published in 1982, more than likely influenced by Champions.[/quote']

 

Yeah looking at my copy of In the Labyrinth introduces Talents (skills) but not disads, not in 1980.

 

The heart? Several things pop to mind. Saying "DCV?" and striking fear into the players.

 

The complete freedom to have the exact character you want and feeling so darn original about it.

 

The SPD thing is very Hero but it tends to be the one concept I would ditch.

 

The use of END to fuel powers is pretty Hero

 

Rolling lots of Dice!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

The disads for TFT came out in a Space Gamer article and were not actually part of the ruleset. In other words' date=' house rules. This article was published in 1982, more than likely influenced by Champions.[/quote']

 

I applaud this public display of full frontal nerdity. Well done, sir. Now, put your clothes back on.

 

What defines a HERO game? For me? HERO is the first point-buy system I ever used, so I would agree with the "large view" that reasoning from effect is what makes the system so powerful.

 

I have the PCs in an alternate dimension; in that dimension, they've mastered gravitic based technology, vs. magnetic based technology. This made for some fascinating devices, such as a rubber body harness that was attached to a set of grav-counters, but only worked with specifically tuned devices.

 

It was ridiculously easy to build:

 

4Gravity Glove System: +15 STR (15 Active Points); Only to Overcome STR Minima Requirement (-1), OAF (Universal, -1), Only for Compatible Gravity Weapons (-1/2) (4 Real Points).

 

Simply, it's Gun Muscles (as seen in Dark Champions) for Gravity Weapons to make them wieldable. A 'compatible gravity weapon' is anything of the appropriate size; there's no advantage or limitation for being 'compatible' with a power (anymore than STR Minima gives it already). Which allows this device to be a really cool "SFX" and add flavor to the world without making everything all crazy and unbalanced. So the Gravity Accelerator Cannon, for example, would have "Gravity Glove Compatible (+0)" if you really wanted to 'see' it on the weapon design.

 

The reason I mention this specifically is because of the ease with which it was built. Took me all of two minutes. When I first got into the system I was flummoxed. Regularly. Things that are now obvious, immediate & simple were confounding and mind twisting. People who've been playing the game far longer than me have to do a double-take when I point out "No no, that's actually telekinesis and part of a multipower." And then the lights all go on and everyone says "oh yes..."

 

So the definition of a HERO game is, simply, one that uses the HERO rules set. Just last game we were arguing over the design of a Foam Explosive canister. We couldn't figure out how you have a device where 1/4 can gives 4d6 EB (EX +1/2) and says each quarter can gives +4d6, then later says "Each +1/4 can gives +1d6." But we weren't sure if it was supposed to be Boostable or if it was just a colossal typo.

 

6 Foam Explosive: 4d6 EB, Explosive (+1/2) (30 Active Points); Charges (4 boostable charges that never recover, -2 3/4), Focus (OAF Universal, -1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2)

 

Regardless, I was able to build it in about three minutes. That's what makes it a HERO game, for me.

[Greywind]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

Actually the Speed Chart is related to the one for Star Fleet Battles.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

Actually the Speed Chart is related to the one for Star Fleet Battles.

As well as Car Wars (although it started with 10 phases, then moved to 5, and finally to 3 in the latest version).

[tancred]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

The disads for TFT came out in a Space Gamer article and were not actually part of the ruleset. In other words' date=' house rules. This article was published in 1982, more than likely influenced by Champions.[/quote']

 

Knew I should have looked at ITL before I posted. That'll teach me to open my mouth before getting my facts straight.

 

What Knightmare said sums it up, the ability to create EXACTLY the character you wanted, without being straight-jacketed by the system.

And what Thia said about "ridiculously easy to build" too. Most things are (especially if you use Hero Designer).

[StGrimblefig]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

What Knightmare said sums it up' date=' the ability to create EXACTLY the character you wanted, without being straight-jacketed by the system.[/quote']

I agree, but I would extend this beyond just characters, as the "reason from effect" concept applies to EVERYTHING, not just character/power creation.

 

Was the "toolkit" angle first mentioned in the 5th Edition? That is, I believe, a unique aspect of the ruleset -- that it can be used to balance new ideas in other games, by modeling then in Hero, and then converting back to the original system.

[The Monster]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

Reason from Effect.

Not merely that you can build things - powers, characters, etc. - but that you can do so within the rules. This not only lets you do whatever you want, it lets you do it without making house rules, and without needing to look everything up. For comparison:

Fireball in D&D is easy enough, once you know the radius and caster level. But for Meteor Swarm, there's a whole separate spell description!

In Hero, going from Fireball to Meteor Swarm is a simple matter of adding Autofire to the basic area-effect EB/RKA that is a Fireball. You don't need to look up a separate spell, you just need to know the Autofire rules. And once you know the Autofire rules, you can apply them to fireballs, machine guns, superspeed punches, etc., etc., all without additional rules.

An oversimplified example - and I don't mean to say D&D (whatever edition) is necessarily a bad game. But this, to me, is the distinguishing "heart of Hero" that makes it special to me.

[eternal_sage]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

reason from effect.

 

nothing else is really that unique (as has been pointed out in several places thus far), but that doesn't matter. i see HERO as taking a titanium battle axe (reason from effect), gold plating it (other misc. goodies), and then using it to hack the other companies to bits. its the titanium that makes the system unbreakable, and the battleaxe shape that makes it so dangerous as a weapon. the shiny bits just grant a +5 PRE to the wielder because of it noble station and masterword design.

 

in other words, this, and only this, is what pushes HERO out so far beyond the reach of normal games. the very introduction of this idea into my mind has forced all lesser games to basically shape up or ship out. not many could face the terrible onslaught that was the mighty HERO axe!

 

ps: damn, aren't metaphors fun?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

For me the heart of HERO isn't just one thing -

 

Take away the speed chart, and it's still mostly HERO.

Take away reasoning from effect, and combat still flows the same.

Take away the point build system, and in play there is not difference.

 

HERO is a combination of these things to me. Take away any piece and it just isn't the same.

[CaptD]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

It's the calculator that sits beside you when you make a new character.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

j00 l4m3r! j00 r LOL!!!!~111!!~``~~~ r34l h3r03z uz HERO DESIGNER.

 

Doi.

 

Calculator. Pff.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

j00 l4m3r! j00 r LOL!!!!~111!!~``~~~ r34l h3r03z uz HERO DESIGNER.

 

Doi.

 

Calculator. Pff.

 

Is there a good place to translate lolcat speak for those of us who don't use it as a second language?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

*sigh*

 

You backwards types always drive me nuts. I was speaking 'l33+' aeons before it was 'lolcat' -- but that's another story. What I said was:

 

(NB: Read in Snooty English Accent)

 

"By golly old bean! What a queer device that you seem to be entrusting your work too! Behold, HERO DESIGNER is infinitely simpler, and is used by we civilized folk! You will of course accept this as an obvious truth, and forgo your calculator heretoforthwith!"

[CaptD]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

I use Hero Designer now, but I've been playing since the original blue box version. Hero Designer wasn't around then. So, the Calculator was essential...lol

[eternal_sage]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

...its not called 1337 anymore....???

 

 

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

I still use a calculator. Hero Designer seems like a very useful tool, and it's got great support, from everything I've seen on the boards here about it, but I'm tight-fisted, and the only thing I can't easily do without it is read .hdc files. And I can do that with a text editor if I really really want to.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

I was speaking 'l33+' aeons before it was 'lolcat' -- but that's another story.

Actually, 1337 and lolcat are related, but separate languages. See a waay too in-depth analysis here.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

*sigh*

 

You backwards types always drive me nuts. ....

 

Hey, back in my day we had to use dialup to get a 1200 baud connection to the Internet and we were happy when we could get that!

[BNakagawa]

Re: The Heart of Hero

 

Hey' date=' back in my day we had to use dialup to get a 1200 baud connection to the Internet and we were happy when we could get that![/quote']

 

Luxury! 300 baud on an accoustic modem if we were lucky!