Pulling Authority & Other Genres

[Clonus]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Nobody has so far answered to my comment.

 

Why should the STARDARD for heroism in supers genre be different than every other genre ?

 

 

It isn't. In the cozy mystery genre it is unthinkable for the detective to kill his opponent, even when his opponent is a cold-blooded killer and there seems to be no way to bring them to justice. Well almost. Hercule Poirot

did murder a killer he couldn't figure out how to catch to save Hastings from him...but Poirot committed suicide in atonement for his crime.

 

 

In police procedurals the heroes know without a doubt that a certain character is a serial killer but in order to be the heroes as opposed to the out-control lunatics in meltdown, they have to play by the rules, get evidence and arrest them legitimately. They may kill, but it's in a situation where there's really no other way to stop the target from killing right then and there. In war stories, yes the military heroes kill, but they are not civilians, and civilians who start killing either get slaughtered out of hand, or commit atrocities that make them worse than soldiers of the enemy. Civilians only gain the power to become heroes who kill by joining an actual military force. In romantic adventure novels, the hero (and heroine) kill with great reluctance to save each other's lives and for no other other reason.

 

The Authority on the other hand killed routinely and without being answerable to anyone else for their mistakes and choices.

[Korvar]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Curses! Must spread rep...

 

Well played, though. Well played.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Here is an article which suggests that entire concept of hero should be dropped.

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=moto&article=113

 

Wow. That's the second article this week written by someone whose idea of the "superhero" stagnated right around the time The Superfriends were still on the air.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

So the basic argument is...what, exactly?

 

That heroes, to be more "realistic", should be "occasional bastards" and do something really bad or mistaken to show that, yeah, they're human too?

I think that element is present in not only a lot of superhero comics, but in a lot of superhero campaigns too.

That they should succumb to the temptation to wield their power in defiance of "mere human authority", in order to impose their own notion of justice upon mere humanity? I'm not sure that really necessarily follows from that critique of "Buntline" heroism.

 

Or is this simply an elaborate excuse for ripping villains' heads off, humiliating heads of state on global television, and playing "if I were King of the World"?

If the latter:

I'd have to think that "realistic" roleplay would dictate such a group eventually conspiring against each other--the mentalist is resentful of the others' constant belittling of his ideas, so one day he simply "adjusts" their attitudes subtly. The energy projector can't stand the arrogance of the brick, so he tips off the brick's nemesis about his secret weakness, and then there's a mysterious problem with the team's communicator...

Basically, if I'm free to be an arrogant self-righteous bastard who can justify anything in the name of "justice", why would I stay my hand in dealing with the only people who might be able to thwart me(IOW, the other PCs). I mean, it'd be bad RP to suggest one would refrain simply because the other characters had flashing "PC" signs above their heads, right?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Why should the STARDARD [sic] for heroism in supers genre be different than every other genre ?

Let me see if I've got this straight: You're stating that since heroes in every genre fall short of the ideals of true heroism (if, indeed, such a thing even exists); superheroes are the only genre that even pretends to aspire to higher ideals; it therefore follows that we should abandon any idea of heroism (super or otherwise) completely and go with an honest "might makes right" philosophy?

 

Could it just possibly be that the whole point of superheroes is to inspire us to higher standards? Couldn't it just possibly be that setting an ideal is a good thing? That there is real merit in recognizing that inspiration to be better is a good thing? Perhaps, instead of reading nihilistic Iron Age dreck like The Authority (which replaces superheroes with self-righteous superbeings, you need to watch The Iron Giant to see the real point of superheroes.

 

Superman inspires. The Authority depresses. You decide.

[nexus]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Curses! Must spread rep...

 

Well played, though. Well played.

 

I got him for ya.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Iron Age cliches':

1. Nixon is always President(or equivalent thereof).

2. Hoover is always the FBI Director(or equivalent thereof).

3. Every city government is as corrupt as Chicago in the 20s and 30s.

4. Every police force is as on the take as the NYPD in the Serpico era.

5. Every corporation is run as though the CEO is a robber baron monopolist from the 19th Century.

6. Every war is a bad war.

7. every 3rd world country is run by a dictator.

8. every other protagonist is a member of an oppressed minority of some kind, the more esoteric the better.

9. every villain is like the Nazis, only a billion times worse, and secretly working for the government, the megacorps, or both.

10. the protagonists are mysteriously the only supers on the planet who have figured out how to use their abilities in new and munchkinly effective fashion.

 

there's probably a couple hundred more, but why are these cliches any less tiresome than those of "traditional" comic books?

[nexus]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Iron Age cliches':

1. Nixon is always President(or equivalent thereof).

2. Hoover is always the FBI Director(or equivalent thereof).

3. Every city government is as corrupt as Chicago in the 20s and 30s.

4. Every police force is as on the take as the NYPD in the Serpico era.

5. Every corporation is run as though the CEO is a robber baron monopolist from the 19th Century.

6. Every war is a bad war.

7. every 3rd world country is run by a dictator.

8. every other protagonist is a member of an oppressed minority of some kind, the more esoteric the better.

9. every villain is like the Nazis, only a billion times worse, and secretly working for the government, the megacorps, or both.

10. the protagonists are mysteriously the only supers on the planet who have figured out how to use their abilities in new and munchkinly effective fashion.

 

there's probably a couple hundred more, but why are these cliches any less tiresome than those of "traditional" comic books?

 

Unfortunately true, some Iron Age settings dance right past "realistic" or "gritty" and straight to creating a Crapsack World.

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Wanting to be respected and admired is a common, understandable human desire. We want to be loved, and to believe we're worthy of love. For everyone who wants to be hated and feared there is someone else who wants to do the right thing. Historically, power-hungry megalomaniacs have had something of an edge because they are good at effectively organizing their minions (at least compared to Joe Nice-guy). In a world with supers it would be MORE difficult for SUPER hate-me, fear-me, so-long-as-you-obey-me guy to take and keep power, because a loyal cadre of minions isn't much defense against a couple of citizens with the super powers to take you on. That kind of thing may fly in Latveria, not so much in the USA.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Wanting to be respected and admired is a common' date=' understandable human desire. We want to be loved, and to believe we're worthy of love. For everyone who wants to be hated and feared there is someone else who wants to do the right thing. Historically, power-hungry megalomaniacs have had something of an edge because they are good at effectively organizing their minions (at least compared to Joe Nice-guy). In a world with supers it would be MORE difficult for SUPER hate-me, fear-me, so-long-as-you-obey-me guy to take and keep power, because a loyal cadre of minions isn't much defense against a couple of citizens with the super powers to take you on. That kind of thing may fly in Latveria, not so much in the USA.[/quote']

I'd like to believe you but I can't help but feel you have an Agenda.

 

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

I'd like to believe you but I can't help but feel you have an Agenda.

 

 

D'oh! SOMETHING always gives me away!

 

Scratch the 'lull them into a false sense of security' portion of my diabolical scheme.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Authority figure:"An interesting theory Dr..." *looks up from page* "Wait a minute, your name is..."

Doctor Agenda: "It's pronounced "A-GEND-ah; hard "G" sound. "

Authority figure: "Oh, right. Like I said, I really like your work. Perhaps we could look into this further"

Doctor Agenda: *rubs hands together*"BUWAHAHA*cough*...Er...Yes. That would be wonderful."

[Balabanto]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

My question, Mr. Silentman, is twofold.

 

How can you not understand that you are living out, with this argument, the two key reasons why the superheroic world is different from the real world.

 

1) WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY.

 

This means that the more power you have, the more you must be careful about how you use it. Superman doesn't just kill Lex Luthor for more than just the reasons stated. He doesn't kill Lex Luthor because with killing Lex Luthor comes the price of killing Lex Luthor. You seem to think most people don't have problems with killing others. Why don't you talk to a cop who's shot somebody about how many therapy sessions they send him to after a shooting, even if it's clearly right?

 

Think about this for a moment. I am Superman. I kill Lex Luthor. I am some other illegitimate businessman. I think to myself..."Holy !@#$%!@. Superman KILLED Lex Luthor!!!!" I call Fred, and George, and Harry, who are all illegitimate businessmen. Together, we build a kryptonite satellite and blanket the earth in Kryptonite Radiation. No effect on us. Superman dies.

 

Your problem is that you're misreading the power/responsibility argument, because you don't understand this brilliant statement by none other than Winston Churchill.

 

2) POWER CORRUPTS, AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY!

 

Superman understands that he can't afford to use his power to create a different world, not because it corrupts others, but because it corrupts him. Superman understands that he is ridiculously powerful, but the price of his abilities is that he can't always use them to the fullest, lest he be using them to the fullest all the time, at the expense of not only himself, but those he is trying to protect.

 

If Superman kills someone, he has had to resort to a level of force which he would not ordinarily have had to do so, and shown everyone just how fragile the world is and how fragile they are. By showing humanity their own impotence, he is no longer Superman. Nor, for that matter, is he a hero of any kind for doing so.

 

"I feel like I live in a world made of cardboard, always taking constant care not to break something, to break someone, never allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die."

 

A hero isn't a hero because of his powers. A hero is a hero because of his compassion.

[Squall]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

I'm honestly at the point -- after marathon-reading this thread -- that I don't understand why people are even responding to this guy any more. You're not going to change his mind. He's not going to "get it." People either understand the differences between moral standards of the heroic versus superheroic genres, or they don't. He's a don't.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

I like to talk.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

I'm honestly at the point -- after marathon-reading this thread -- that I don't understand why people are even responding to this guy any more. You're not going to change his mind. He's not going to "get it." People either understand the differences between moral standards of the heroic versus superheroic genres' date=' or they don't. He's a don't.[/quote']Actually, I think he's a troll. It's pretty clear he's presenting someone else's argument rather than his own.

 

That doesn't mean the point of superheroic morals isn't worth making anyway. Other who CAN understand them will also read this thread.

[input.jack]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Superheroes who do not hold themselves to a higher moral code are not superHEROES.

They are superBEINGS, and as such are not worthy of respect or admiration for the strength of their character.

 

They will not become icons.

 

They will not become legends.

 

They may, however, easily become monsters.

Those who follow in the Authority's footsteps WILL become monsters.

 

Now they are superVILLAINS.

[Korvar]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

7. every 3rd world country is run by a dictator.

 

And every dictator is propped up by the U.S.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

some times we use duct tape.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Heck, the arguments he are presenting are poorly thought out and not well presented. This is compounded by the fact that he isn't really discussing.

 

My honest impression is:

 

"All the conventions of comic books are stupid and wrong. Respond." There is nothing constructive there.

 

Heck I don't read comics (never have). But I still recognize this for what it is.

[nexus]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

If anyone's seen Superman: Doomsday this thread is kind of ironic.

[psychonaut_raz]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Before it came to its inevitable end because I moved interstate, my old game was moving towards Authority-esque directions. The player-characters were taking on a more and more proactive approach towards stopping evildoers, and broadening their operations to cover more ground. They were talking at one point about taking over the Shi-Ar galactic empire (game was set in the Marvel Universe) and enforcing peace across the universe, and it was kind of scary to think that they had gathered the power and the experience over several years of playing these characters to stand a pretty good shot at that if they really wanted to give it a go.

 

It would certainly have been an interesting place to take things...the problem with any kind of serial fiction though is that if the heroes are permanently removing threats and permanently changing the status quo for the better, they will eventually run out of threats to remove. And while utopia is a nice goal, I imagine it would be pretty boring to read about (it would definitely be boring to play).

 

So I think the real reason heroes don't change society in vast sweeping ways is more because it's a convention of the genre than any moral/ethical reasons....it's just a happy coincidence that morals can tie into that...

[Katherine]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

The view point might be skewed but our Mutant Liberation Champions game wrapped up with us performing permanent and lasting change and making the world a better place

 

By largely getting rid of the Baseline vermin!

 

But it was a dark natured and pretty cynical by intent. Its what we wanted to play at the time and it turned out to very fun. We're also playing more a more four color game at the moment and it's been pretty fun too.

[Dr Archeville]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Think about this for a moment. I am Superman. I kill Lex Luthor. I am some other illegitimate businessman. I think to myself..."Holy !@#$%!@. Superman KILLED Lex Luthor!!!!" I call Fred' date=' and George, and Harry, who are all illegitimate businessmen. Together, we build a kryptonite satellite and blanket the earth in Kryptonite Radiation. [b']No effect on us.[/b] Superman dies.

That's not entirely true. Also, the other JLA members, who have little to no problem with K-radiation, will likely go after them. And thus the cycle continues....

 

(Sorry, had to put in my own $0.02 to this thread. And I also like Heroes who are Heroes, who do good deeds because leading an ethical & moral life -- and leading others to do so by example -- is a positive thing for the whole world/galaxy/universe.)

[Vondy]

Re: Pulling Authority & Other Genres

 

Uh-oh. The Freedom Patrol may be in trouble...

 

Iron Age cliches':

1. Nixon is always President(or equivalent thereof).

2. Hoover is always the FBI Director(or equivalent thereof).

3. Every city government is as corrupt as Chicago in the 20s and 30s.

4. Every police force is as on the take as the NYPD in the Serpico era.

5. Every corporation is run as though the CEO is a robber baron monopolist from the 19th Century.

6. Every war is a bad war.

7. every 3rd world country is run by a dictator.

8. every other protagonist is a member of an oppressed minority of some kind, the more esoteric the better.

9. every villain is like the Nazis, only a billion times worse, and secretly working for the government, the megacorps, or both.

10. the protagonists are mysteriously the only supers on the planet who have figured out how to use their abilities in new and munchkinly effective fashion.

 

there's probably a couple hundred more, but why are these cliches any less tiresome than those of "traditional" comic books?

 

At least I have an excuse. Its a powered pulp game that has spanned 1914-1924....

 

1. Harding just died after a corruption scandal. Silent Cal is now president...
   
2. Hoover really is FBI director, and his role in targeting one of their members during the Palmer Raids sparked an enduring hate-fest between him and the team's cadre boss (let alone the rest of the team). "Get that bastard J. Edgar" is pretty much on everyone's to-do list...
   
3. Its the 20's: Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans, New York, Cincinati and Detroit all have major corruption problems...
   
4. Or the prohibition era...
   
5. Several of whom are still alive and running corporations...
   
6. WWI sort of started that trend...
   
7. Mexico, Cuba... the list continues.
   
8. Ouch. Only 2 out of 10 members are white males, and only 1 other can pass for a white male. The team has five women, who couldn't vote for part of the game, three of whom are minorities who did have issues during that era: Jewess, Lebanese Arab, Octoroon - though really, only the last of those had serious issues. And of the men, one is Jewish, one is a Chinaman, and one is a Seneca Indian. Of the latter two, one still isn't a citizen (that's coming soon) and both have miscegnation laws to deal with, and the first one has issues in that most federal agencies wouldn't hire Jews in that era, and in many neighborhoods he can't by a house (that's applied to several of them). Almost all of them have had issues - let alone trying to convince Boss Hog that "Yes, I know you like my Chanel Suit, Sheriff, but I really am a federal agent and I will bother my pretty little head over it." And perjoratives do come up because of the era.
   
9. One reason I went for Teens-20's was no nazis. But we do have Prussian War Mongers bent on revenge! Mwhahahahaha!!! Of course, they aren't the epitome of evil, though. Just good ol' fashioned monocole wearing megalomaniacs.
   
10. Phew! Neuegotter plague survivors are fairly new, but no, there are plenty of munchkiny foes out there.