FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

[Curufea]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Same thing in Fantasy Hero. Going out and doing things makes you powerful' date=' not your Knowledge Skills.[/quote']

 

Doing things makes you powerful. Not necessarily "adventuring". See the previous posts in this thread on the subject.

The main advantage here of Fantasy Hero is that it can be modified easily and there are rules and guidelines in place to tell you what things would be like if you did.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Not true for over twenty years. Each race has its own pantheon' date=' whether they are used is up to the players and the GM.[/quote']

Don't care. The title of the thread is "...ideas from D&D..." not "...ideas exclusively from the most recent edition of D&D..."

And AFAIK, each race still has a head of its pantheon who is the "god of (whatever race)". And in many of the pantheons there are gods of the same thing as another pantheon. Nature is nature. There does not necessarily need to be separate gods for "elvish nature" and "gnomish nature" and "halfling nature" ...

 

I'll quibble here - the current definition (3.x) is that magic requires unrestrained movement to cast. Why you need to be able to limbo to cast spells is still beyond me, though.

We've been through this before. Druids. In addition to my comments above - the idea was around in many prior editions.

 

This is a product of the Jack Vance Dying Earth books which were (some of) the sources of the magic system. Therefore, D&D is the carrier of the tradition, not the source.

So what?

 

In city, not so much, but when travelling overland - yes, particularly in areas with little in the way of law and particularly by individuals whose profession involves fighting. The power of the law only extends as far as there are lawmen. Travelling in medieval Europe was not particularly safe away from cities, settlements, and well traveled roads.

Nobody wore plate armor trveling over land. You wear it onto the field of battle. Soldiers wear it. A guard traveling with a caravan might wear some. That's about it.

 

Both of these set squarely upon the shoulders of the GM. If the GM wants to handle a variable economy, they can. If they don't, no fair complaining about being forced to.

Again, so what? The title of this thread is "...that ain't necessarily so," not "...that must not be so."

 

Most PCs are from the "prime material plane" making it the common yardstick and point of reference. The number of campaigns starting elsewhere and travelling to the prime are finite and the GM can (generally speaking) reverse the description in those cases. ("Hi, we're from Bifrost. Why is it so hot here and where is all the snow?")

There are a finite number of campaigns in total. So what? It's an idea that ain't necessarily so that there are other planes of existence at all, or that you can get to them without being dead, or through your own actions. Or that there are further adventure to be had there (complete with treasure that you can bring home).

 

And, Phil?

 

I only replied more to your issues than anyone else because you posted more issues than anyone else.

 

None of my replies invalidate any of the other issues raised.

None of your replies invalidate *any* of the issues raised at all. They are all ideas from D&D that don't have to be so in FRPGs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Don't care. The title of the thread is "...ideas from D&D..." not "...ideas exclusively from the most recent edition of D&D..."

************************************

So what?

 

So the idea came from the fiction of Jack Vance, and not from D&D. The title of the thread is "...ideas from D&D..." not "...ideas borrowed from other sources by D&D...", isn't it? If it's the latter, the ideas that:

 

- the sword is the best weapon for every occasion

 

- weapons and armor from numerous different time periods and levels of technological advancement in warfare are all used together, differentiated only by cost.

 

Really, once steel forging was at the point longswords and broadswords were viable, short swords had little military appeal.

[Markdoc]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

In city' date=' not so much, but when travelling overland - yes, particularly in areas with little in the way of law and particularly by individuals whose profession involves fighting. The power of the law only extends as far as there are lawmen. Travelling in medieval Europe was not particularly safe away from cities, settlements, and well traveled roads.[/quote']

 

True, but outside of actual war zones, we know people rarely travelled in armour. And even IN actual warzones they often didn't (history is replete with armies getting caught unarmoured whilst on the march). In real life, armour is hot, sweaty and chafes. Wear it days at at time while travelling (a sweaty business in itself) and it'll wear your skin off, leaving bleeding (and soon infected and pus-leaking) sores. "Siege fever" - death from infection of wounds caused by continuously wearing armour - was a known and feared cause of death back in the day.

 

cheers, Mark

[Drhoz]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

True' date=' but outside of actual war zones, we know people rarely travelled in armour. And even IN actual warzones they often didn't (history is replete with armies getting caught unarmoured whilst on the march). In real life, armour is hot, sweaty and chafes. Wear it days at at time while travelling (a sweaty business in itself) and it'll wear your skin off, leaving bleeding (and soon infected and pus-leaking) sores. "Siege fever" - death from infection of wounds caused by continuously wearing armour - was a known and feared cause of death back in the day.[/quote']

 

yeah, but the crusaders etc didn't have Clerics travelling with the party "hey, baldy, some Minor Healing over here!"

[Markdoc]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

yeah' date=' but the crusaders etc didn't have Clerics travelling with the party "hey, baldy, some Minor Healing over here!"[/quote']

 

I actually thought about that part.

 

Still, the idea that you go everywhere in armour is pretty much attributable to D&D and in turn to the suggestions in the first edition of AD&D, which I suspect reflect Gygax's playing style. At any rate it was very much "players vs GM" so the "armour, always on" was in response to justifiable paranoia. As a GM, I never had a problem with players going everywhere in armour because I actively discouraged it in-game and didn't unreasonably* persecute players. That was pretty much the only game I've ever seen where that was the norm, though.

 

cheers, Mark

 

*I say unreasonably, because although I did once hide an assassin in the long-drop toilet (thus getting a free shot at the unarmoured vitals of an unsuspecting target ) - I mean, hey - that's historical.

[Karmakaze]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

45) No amount of study and research at any institute or university will enable a Mage to learn more spells. They must go out and kill things. Killing things makes you powerful. Knowledge does not.

 

Same thing in Fantasy Hero. Going out and doing things makes you powerful' date=' not your Knowledge Skills.[/quote']

 

Note that the original quote was "killing things" not the more generic "doing things" you quote. That's the big difference.

 

In Fantasy HERO one could, in theory, run a campaign set at a wizard school where PCs spend much of their on-screen time attending classes. In D&D if those classes didn't involve killing creatures, the GM needs to use alternate XP rules or the characters never advance.

 

The issue here isn't so much "one must adventure in order to be an adventurer" as "an adventurer's body count is the primary (if not only) measure of the adventurer's success."

[OddHat]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Note that the original quote was "killing things" not the more generic "doing things" you quote. That's the big difference.

 

In Fantasy HERO one could, in theory, run a campaign set at a wizard school where PCs spend much of their on-screen time attending classes. In D&D if those classes didn't involve killing creatures, the GM needs to use alternate XP rules or the characters never advance.

 

The issue here isn't so much "one must adventure in order to be an adventurer" as "an adventurer's body count is the primary (if not only) measure of the adventurer's success."

 

Agreed. Also note that in some Hero campaigns, it is your KS that make your character powerful. Many of the adventures I run are much easier to complete with the right combination of KS and PC choices than with combat, and I'm a GM who likes combat heavy games.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Numbering this one n because I don't know where were are. To go meta for a few....

 

n) Characters can transit through games easily. A character created for one game can be brought to someone else's, with full experience and items, regardless of whether the games take place in the same world.

 

n.a) Any character you create is valid, regardless of how it was created or who witnessed it.

 

n+1) You can play with character classes and magic items from any Dragon magazine or adventure module you own, regardless of whether your DM or the other players have access to them.

[Enforcer84]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

HAHAHAHAHAH...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I know. Flashbacks to 8th grade!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

So the idea came from the fiction of Jack Vance' date=' and not from D&D. The title of the thread is "...ideas from D&D..." not "...ideas borrowed from other sources by D&D...", isn't it?[/quote']

Jack Vance is not a Fantasy Role Playing Game. D&D is. Gygax (and the others) didn't have to model the D&D magic system on Vance. And once they made that decision, there were still many other ways they could have implimented Vancian-style magic other than what they did.

 

And did you ever notice that Vance is an anagram of Vecna?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

And BTW, Chris Goodwin's above are 59, 59a, and 60.

 

So the next one will be 61.

[Drhoz]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

*I say unreasonably' date=' because although I did once hide an assassin in the long-drop toilet (thus getting a free shot at the unarmoured vitals of an unsuspecting target ) - I mean, hey - that's [i']historical[/i].

 

*applauds your historical verisimilitude*

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Jack Vance is not a Fantasy Role Playing Game. D&D is. Gygax (and the others) didn't have to model the D&D magic system on Vance. And once they made that decision, there were still many other ways they could have implimented Vancian-style magic other than what they did.

 

And did you ever notice that Vance is an anagram of Vecna?

 

By the logic that anything adopted into D&D first becomes a D&Dism, regardless of its previous appearance in fantasy literature. Does that mean "Dragons exists" becomes a D&Dism? you could certainly play a fantasy game where dragons do not exist. Elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, vampires, werewolves, magic swords, wizards - all are present in D&D and need not be present in every fantasy game, but I wouldn't call them FRPG Ideas from D&D. They are FRPG ideas from prior source material which D&D adopted.

[Lucius]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

By the logic that anything adopted into D&D first becomes a D&Dism' date=' regardless of its previous appearance in fantasy literature. Does that mean "Dragons exists" becomes a D&Dism? you could certainly play a fantasy game where dragons do not exist. Elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, vampires, werewolves, magic swords, wizards - all are present in D&D and need not be present in every fantasy game, but I wouldn't call them FRPG Ideas [b']from D&D[/b]. They are FRPG ideas from prior source material which D&D adopted.

 

And by THAT logic, very little in D&D can be described as "from D&D."

 

For example, the whole "level" concept comes from wargaming - Gygax was carrying over, elaborating, and extending the distinction between green, regular, veteran, and elite troops.

 

"Class" is obviously a carryover of the idea in tactical gaming that you have, and need, several different types of "units" with distinct capabilities.

 

 

I think it is legitimate to say that an idea is "from" D&D when a lot of gamers will be familiar with that idea primarily from D&D, or from games influenced by D&D. Everyone's heard of vampires and dragons; the idea that vampires can drain away your experience in your chosen profession and make you more like a beginner, or that dragons are color coded "for your convenience," is, as you put it, a "D&Dism." Even if you can find some color coding scheme for dragons that predates D&D, that may prove Gygax didn't invent it, but doesn't change the fact that without D&D most of us would never have heard of it.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Without Mensa, would anyone have heard of the palindromedary?

[Markdoc]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Jack Vance is not a Fantasy Role Playing Game. D&D is. Gygax (and the others) didn't have to model the D&D magic system on Vance. And once they made that decision' date=' there were still many other ways they could have implimented Vancian-style magic other than what they did.[/quote']

 

Also, I should point out that the whole spell level thing, X spells per day and only mages/clerics cast spells (plus the whole magic-user vs Cleric thing) is pure D&D.

 

The only thing they really took from Vance (and specifically from the Dying Earth) series is the idea that spells, once forced into your brain, are retained until you use them, at which point they are lost. They took a few names, although the spells they attached the names to don't reflect the actual spells from which the names were taken. And finally the idea that Thieves could read spells from scrolls (but would probably mess them up) I took as a direct Cugel reference.

 

But I think it's safe to say that that whole style of magic is a D&D'ism.

 

And did you ever notice that Vance is an anagram of Vecna?

 

No. Now I have images of Cugel finding the head of Vecna!

 

cheers, Mark

[Shaddakim]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

And did you ever notice that Vance is an anagram of Vecna?

 

I hadn't. Thank you for adding to my stock of D&D inside references.

[Shaddakim]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I think it is legitimate to say that an idea is "from" D&D when a lot of gamers will be familiar with that idea primarily from D&D, or from games influenced by D&D. Everyone's heard of vampires and dragons; the idea that vampires can drain away your experience in your chosen profession and make you more like a beginner, or that dragons are color coded "for your convenience," is, as you put it, a "D&Dism." Even if you can find some color coding scheme for dragons that predates D&D, that may prove Gygax didn't invent it, but doesn't change the fact that without D&D most of us would never have heard of it.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

OK, I can roll with that definition.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

And by THAT logic, very little in D&D can be described as "from D&D."

 

For example, the whole "level" concept comes from wargaming - Gygax was carrying over, elaborating, and extending the distinction between green, regular, veteran, and elite troops.

 

"Class" is obviously a carryover of the idea in tactical gaming that you have, and need, several different types of "units" with distinct capabilities.

 

 

I think it is legitimate to say that an idea is "from" D&D when a lot of gamers will be familiar with that idea primarily from D&D

 

At what point in time? When D&D first hit the market, far more people would have been familiar with Vancian magic from Jack Vance than from this upstart little box of booklets. Some D&Disms cited above have changed as various editions have been released, such that a newer player may not associate some with D&D (such as "only certain non-human races are capable of advancing in skill as both warriors and wizards simultaneously", or "only humans can achieve higher levels of skill, despite the fact that most non-humans benefit from much longer lifespans to hone their skills").

 

' date=' or from games influenced by D&D. Everyone's heard of vampires and dragons; the idea that vampires can drain away your experience in your chosen profession and make you more like a beginner, or that dragons are color coded "for your convenience," is, as you put it, a "D&Dism." Even if you can find some color coding scheme for dragons that predates D&D, that may prove Gygax didn't invent it, but doesn't change the fact that without D&D most of us would never have heard of it.[/quote']

 

Now within those parameters, I think you have a very workable definition.

 

AN ASIDE - not germane to the above. Have you noticed that you can tell the clear market leader by the references the lesser players in the market make to it? Hero players (and players of many other games) rag on D&D, but D&D doesn't rag on other games and systems. They don't need to - they have become the standard to which others are compared.

 

Similarly, Pepsi ads often refer to Coke (remember "Take the Pepsi Challenge") but Coke never sees a need to mention other products, directly or by implication, in their advertising. They define the market.

 

I find it interesting that every time someone posts a thread discussing how Hero is "better than D&D" (a very subjective determination, of course), they just reinforce the fact that D&D is the market leader, and sets the standard for comparison.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

And speaking of the Vance - Vecna thing, there's the names:

 

61) A good name for your character is your name spelled backwards. If your name is Jim Ward, name your wizard "Drawmij." Or you can alter it slightly. If your last name happens to be Gygax, name a character Zagyg, or Zagy. And it works for monsters, too. If you want a bizarre variety of goblin, call it a "Nilbog."

 

How many other backwords names and words were there in D&D?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

And speaking of the Vance - Vecna thing, there's the names:

 

61) A good name for your character is your name spelled backwards. If your name is Jim Ward, name your wizard "Drawmij." Or you can alter it slightly. If your last name happens to be Gygax, name a character Zagyg, or Zagy. And it works for monsters, too. If you want a bizarre variety of goblin, call it a "Nilbog."

 

How many other backwords names and words were there in D&D?

 

Wasn't Keoughtom (as in the ointment) one of the original D&D group? Like Tom Keough or something?

[Zeropoint]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

61) A good name for your character is your name spelled backwards. If your name is Jim Ward, name your wizard "Drawmij." Or you can alter it slightly. If your last name happens to be Gygax, name a character Zagyg, or Zagy. And it works for monsters, too. If you want a bizarre variety of goblin, call it a "Nilbog."

 

Cire

Ybrethaew . . . sounds a bit Gaelic or Welsh to me

Tnioporez

Oreztniop

[Maur]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Orcs... Scro...

[Steve]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Drow... Word... Hmmm.

 

I suddenly have this image of dark elf punks and punkettes hanging around a street corner.