WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

As to the "flipping over the table" that seems to be a bit petty. I have a policy of at least once, and every so often, making sure you pay for your disad by making them, well, a disadvantage. If you don't like that, why are you trying to get power for free? Again, very petty. My players know my rules.

 

It all depends on the situation, adding to my comments above - if the game was sold as a 4 color / silver age game, where the Code vs Killing was genre re-enforcement* then throwing this at the character breaks the "contract" of the game. In that circumstance I could easily see "flipping the table" as a valid response.

 

Now if you let your players know that such things happen (as it seems you do) then not a problem. But I've seen occasions where a GM tries to "make disads count!" completely change the tone of a game, which can ruin it for a player.

 

Edit- forgot my footnote

 

* - I've run games where that disad is required.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Doctor Sanguine Would find the leaders of the aliens' date=' and change them into human beings.[/quote']

 

Best answer yet. Nicely sidesteps the problem.

 

Ballistic has the power to do a megascale transform and could do the same thing, only to every one of the aliens, not just their leaders.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

It all depends on the situation, adding to my comments above - if the game was sold as a 4 color / silver age game, where the Code vs Killing was genre re-enforcement* then throwing this at the character breaks the "contract" of the game. In that circumstance I could easily see "flipping the table" as a valid response.

 

Now if you let your players know that such things happen (as it seems you do) then not a problem. But I've seen occasions where a GM tries to "make disads count!" completely change the tone of a game, which can ruin it for a player.

 

This is a good point. Disads are a tool to help a Player create a person and roleplay. One game I'm in the CVK was mandatory - it's the tone of the game. It makes us think about our strategies, like a Move By instead of Move Through when facing some mooks. How we approach situations, how we disengage from situations. How the world treats the Heroes.

 

Moral dilema's are all fine and good, but if the tone of the campaign unexpectedly shifts I'd be in table-flipping-mode too.

[Hermit]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Best answer yet. Nicely sidesteps the problem.

 

Ballistic has the power to do a megascale transform and could do the same thing, only to every one of the aliens, not just their leaders.

 

Well, Doctor Sanguine's VPP isn't that powerful that fast, but he'd be happy to share the idea with Ballistic if he met him So yay, Invasion stopped

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Well' date=' Doctor Sanguine's VPP isn't that powerful that fast, but he'd be happy to share the idea with Ballistic if he met him So yay, Invasion stopped[/quote']

 

80 pt magic pools are good for that sort of thing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Wish I'd thought of that... Enigma has a much weaker Magic VPP, but it would eventually get the job done.

[Legatus]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

The First Ladies probably don't have the power to even stop more than one hundred of those aliens. So they are way out of their league here.

 

The problem of killing or be killed would be solved like this:

 

Primadonna: My sonic blast just knocks them out. Isn't that enough, Mr. Defender?

Primaballerina: Kicks, punches and pirouettes! I will do this my way!

Diva: Haha, I mindcontrolled the guy with the autocannon to blow away his platoon. Hey, not in this direction...

[Checkmate]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

First, as shown by Hermit's brilliance, there is always a 3rd option. Second, why isn't this a 4-color scenario? War World anyone? Both it coming to blow up the earth, and Brainiac trying to turn the Earth into War World. Speaking of Brainiac, he wants to destroy all organics...I think, but even if he doesn't Ultron (almost wrote that Voltron) does, and to use Champion's version Mechanon, wants to wipe out all of humanity. I don't see this as any different. The only way to stop any would-be world destroyer permanently is to kill them, but heroes being heroes always find ways around it.

[Clonus]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

It all depends on the situation' date=' adding to my comments above - if the game was sold as a 4 color / silver age game, where the Code vs Killing was genre re-enforcement* .[/quote']

 

In a silver age game you wouldn't have any trouble killing the aliens because they wouldn't be classed as people in the first place and therefore wouldn't be covered by the CVKs. Superman once killed a million clones of Solomon Grundy. My jokey previous response aside, the real issue with this plotline is that if you've got a hundred thousand opponents all of them so tough that military ordnance is ineffective against them, my characters will fairly quickly be killed anyway if he or she tries to take them on. They're just as powerful or more and we'll be vastly outnumbered. Therefore the real answer has to be "look for a single point source of failure that will make them go away". Take their queen hostage or use technobabble to create a field that makes them all disappear or spread a chemical in Earth's atmosphere that makes them all itch unendurably. The choice to kill or not kill is irrelevant in a situation like that because killing will not solve the problem. Hellfire would probably go with the "take the queen hostage" approach while TN Lung would continue to attempt to reason with them and bring them to a state of enlightenment

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

This is a good point. Disads are a tool to help a Player create a person and roleplay. One game I'm in the CVK was mandatory - it's the tone of the game. It makes us think about our strategies, like a Move By instead of Move Through when facing some mooks. How we approach situations, how we disengage from situations. How the world treats the Heroes.

 

Moral dilema's are all fine and good, but if the tone of the campaign unexpectedly shifts I'd be in table-flipping-mode too.

 

Said better than I could. A bloody, brutal, kill-or-be-killed invasion with a ridiculous bodycount violates the conventions of the genre of any game I'd be interested in playing in. If the GM told me that was part of the game beforehand, I wouldn't have played. If the GM was billing it as the lighter action/adventure game I like, then turned it into a Rust Age bloodbath, then I'd most certainly complain if not walk.

[Checkmate]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Said better than I could. A bloody' date=' brutal, kill-or-be-killed invasion with a ridiculous bodycount violates the conventions of the genre of any game I'd be interested in playing in. If the GM told me that was part of the game beforehand, I wouldn't have played. If the GM was billing it as the lighter action/adventure game I like, then turned it into a Rust Age bloodbath, then I'd most certainly complain if not walk.[/quote']

So if you were in a game and the GM claimed it was 4-color, and in one adventure, Gigaton comes running to the heroes claiming Dr. Destroyer has gone mad and wants to blow up the world, and the only way to stop him is to kill him, you'd quit right there and then? If so, yikes, your GM's must last like 3 sessions. If not, what's the difference in the scenarios as presented? As the Op has presented it, replace Gigaton with an alien, and replace Dr. D. as an alien species. It's the exact same adventure recipe.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

So if you were in a game and the GM claimed it was 4-color' date=' and in one adventure, Gigaton comes running to the heroes claiming Dr. Destroyer has gone mad and wants to blow up the world, and the only way to stop him is to kill him, you'd quit right there and then? If so, yikes, your GM's must last like 3 sessions. If not, what's the difference in the scenarios as presented? As the Op has presented it, replace Gigaton with an alien, and replace Dr. D. as an alien species. It's the exact same adventure recipe.[/quote']

 

And it's still every bit a no-win railroaded screwjob IF, as the OP states, there are no other options. The situation in the OP is set up (and I use the phrase 'set up' intentionally) to hose the PCs and force a bloodbath. The comment about 'only unusual or munchkin powers' implies that things will be engineered so that those ARE the only options, which is bad GMing, IMHO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

So if you were in a game and the GM claimed it was 4-color' date=' and in one adventure, Gigaton comes running to the heroes claiming Dr. Destroyer has gone mad and wants to blow up the world, and the only way to stop him is to kill him, you'd quit right there and then? If so, yikes, your GM's must last like 3 sessions. If not, what's the difference in the scenarios as presented? As the Op has presented it, replace Gigaton with an alien, and replace Dr. D. as an alien species. It's the exact same adventure recipe.[/quote']

 

Not really. The major difference is Dr. D is one person. And if you can kill him you can subdue him and strip him of power. This is not a task that can easily be applied to an entire Species.

 

There is a major difference at that point. That difference being the scope of the task.

 

Additionally there's the Presentation (through Gigaton's eyes where PCs might see other opportunities) and the OPs basically presented fact of: Us Or Them - choose. They won't stop, so you have to remove them. There are certainly times that's the kind of campaign I'm down for, and there are times it's not.

[incrdbil]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

So if you were in a game and the GM claimed it was 4-color, and in one adventure, Gigaton comes running to the heroes claiming Dr. Destroyer has gone mad and wants to blow up the world, and the only way to stop him is to kill him, you'd quit right there and then?

 

Myself, I'd treat is as just one of Dr Destroyers cuning traps. Then, during a break, I'd have a talk with the GM, tell him your treatign this as the normal 'thats aburd, we dont kill, there's a better way' that 4 color campaigns go.

 

Any GM who suddenly takes a 4 color campaign that has not fetured killing as a regualr, or even occasional solution into Iron age territory that abruptly certainly should expect player concern, if not outright rebellion if he suddenly announces the suddenly death of a city or innocents because the players didnt pick up on the GM's rather arbitrary change.

 

 

If so, yikes, your GM's must last like 3 sessions. If not, what's the difference in the scenarios as presented? As the Op has presented it, replace Gigaton with an alien, and replace Dr. D. as an alien species. It's the exact same adventure recipe.

 

And if its the same 4 color campaign its still probably nto the best idea. There are ways to challenge players and work limitations without railroading them.

[Clonus]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Not really. The major difference is Dr. D is one person. And if you can kill him you can subdue him and strip him of power. This is not a task that can easily be applied to an entire Species.

 

 

However a small group of superheroes can't generally kill an entire species or even a superpowered army either. You'll have to look for their master "off" switch.

[hfergus]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Doctor Sanguine Would find the leaders of the aliens' date=' and change them into human beings.[/quote']

 

That would work - sort of. They'd then kill the leaders and keep coming. If you could turn half of them into "others" by their thinking, they'd start killing themselves and you would not have to do the dirty work. This is a type of thing I wanted, a third option. Of course, some heros would only kill or be killed since their powers are too limited. (Most of mine, and the one who could, wouln't. If he had a disad, he almost be "way too willing to kill." (He's a medieval, where life is nasty, brutish and short.) Knowing him, if he thought of it, he'd turn half into friendly "others" and then help kill the other half of their kin, making human casualties low.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

That would work - sort of. They'd then kill the leaders and keep coming. If you could turn half of them into "others" by their thinking' date=' they'd start killing themselves and you would not have to do the dirty work. This is a type of thing I wanted, a third option. Of course, some heros would only kill or be killed since their powers are too limited. (Most of mine, and the one who could, wouln't. If he had a disad, he almost be "way too willing to kill." (He's a medieval, where life is nasty, brutish and short.) Knowing him, if he thought of it, he'd turn half into friendly "others" and then help kill the other half of their kin, making human casualties low.[/quote']

 

The key is without leadership they may quickly devolve into ineffectiveness. Or if their leaders are convincing enough try and stop their own deaths by a change in policy.

[Enforcer84]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

The problem with the WWYCD scenarios that I have seen, including this one is they are jarring, in your face, right now type situations. I guess it could happen but it seems that if you're playing a Fantastic Four style exploration game and a group of aliens (all 100k of them) plop down in New York City, announce that they are going to kill all of humanity and start blowing things up ... the players are going to be confused and angry.

 

If you're playing an Authority Style, Might makes Right campaign, it's probably Thursday.

[hfergus]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

A couple of things- my campaign is not gold age, and only has bits of silver age. (most heroes are not "grey", but some are and pretty bad things can happen to the world and the heroes. ) Call it bronze in general.

 

It is correct that swithing to iron from gold is an offense they probably be walked out on - but if the disad is too easy it is no disad. Batman knows the Joker will kill and some part of him knows he's partially responsible. That's the disad. Also he will put himself in mortal danger to save even villians.

 

I mainly wanted to see what you would do if A) reason doesn't work and you can't count on others (the military for example) to do it for you.

 

I have always found my players to be ingenious. They come up with ways out I had not thought of. Most of the time (80% or more) if it makes sense, I allow it, even if my plans go kerplooie. I can never remember an idea that could would that I totally shut down arbitrarily. (It just did not work totally the way the players planned either in the 20% of the time it did not work the way the players wanted.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

FYI: Golden Age had plenty of out right violence, punching out plenty of NAZI's and the like - not to mention the numerous rather gruesome horror comics.

 

Silver is the typical 4-color and is, from a rough count, the majority of Champions games out there.

 

Bronze includes "real world issues" and has some serious story arcs, but out right violence isn't all that common - but not unheard of.

 

Iron looks you in the eye as it shoves the knife into your stomach, laughs as it twists the knife and then finds small children to terrorize for dessert.

 

This thing - firmly Iron Age response. Well and cool, not the general feel of many campaigns from many members of these boards.

 

And that whole bit about "the disad being too easy" is just a buncha crap that I'm not even going to bother to address in detail.

 

*flips table and leaves*

[Checkmate]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

I still disagree about the scenario being only an Iron Age construct. I mean make the aliens short blue humanoids with enlarged heads, and give them ray guns and it's a Golden Age scenario. Or better yet, make the harbinger a giant white humanoid with a disproportionally large head, who's name is very close to a mid-western state, and make the invading alien a huge humanoid with a thing for purple and eating planets, and you have a Silver Age scenario with the same recipe.

 

Maybe I'm just reading things differently. The way I'm taking the OP is that some alien has just come to Earth and told our heroes that the Earth is about to be overrun by xenophobic aliens that want to destroy everyone on the planet and the only way to stop them is to kill them all. I take that as what the NPC says, not what the GM says. I know I don't always take all NPC's at face value and just take their advice at the expense of thinking things out for myself.

[Enforcer84]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

I still disagree about the scenario being only an Iron Age construct. I mean make the aliens short blue humanoids with enlarged heads, and give them ray guns and it's a Golden Age scenario. Or better yet, make the harbinger a giant white humanoid with a disproportionally large head, who's name is very close to a mid-western state, and make the invading alien a huge humanoid with a thing for purple and eating planets, and you have a Silver Age scenario with the same recipe.

 

Maybe I'm just reading things differently. The way I'm taking the OP is that some alien has just come to Earth and told our heroes that the Earth is about to be overrun by xenophobic aliens that want to destroy everyone on the planet and the only way to stop them is to kill them all. I take that as what the NPC says, not what the GM says. I know I don't always take all NPC's at face value and just take their advice at the expense of thinking things out for myself.

making the alien's funnier looking doesn't make them golden age. Making it a planet eater doesn't make it silver age. The garnish changes in your examples not the actual recepies. That just changes the appearance of the foe.

 

The only thing that changes the "Age" is how the event is handled. If the players burst into the command ship and find an "off" switch that makes the aliens fall to sleep and their war machines slowly grind to a halt, levitating to the ground; it is completely different than if the off switch electrocutes them leaving them smoldering husks whose attack craft fall out of the sky crushing cities and killing innocents.

If the players come up with an answer that doesn't involve Genocide, well that makes it the GM's decision as to what age they are in. If he wants Genocide he simply doesn't allow their non genocidal plans to work. The could be fine for some players not for others. It's not the scenario, it's how it's played out.

 

 

 

And the OP says 1) they are decimating Earth's military already. So they're here. 2) the bringer of the "These are Genocidal maniacs" message is either a) the aliens themselves, or some other alien that has met them and not (yet) been genocided. 3) the OP also states: I wonder about CvK as the aliens number 100k and will not stop until one side is destroyed. This indicates to me that the message from whomever was not hyperbole.

But again, it was a two paragraph description; could mean anything.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

There probably is a lot more to the scenario than we are seeing, yes.

 

But a lot of that wasn't presented in the OP. Personally - I have no issues with the scenario, I have characters in two games that would have no problem with this as presented. A Bronze Age game could use this scenario fairly well, as would Golden Age. I don't believe a Silver Age game (or classic 4-color) would ever present a scenario this way. It may come up as the "only solution" but initially? not buying it.

 

Right now my problem with this topic is the OPs assertion that "but if the disad is too easy it is no disad" which is such a purile approach to Disadvantages I'm too stunned to formulate a reasonable response that won't get me banned instantly. And on top of that uses an example where the Character will never ever choose to kill - as the original OPs situation puts us in from the outset, not as a last ditch option but the Primary Response, and Batman's primary response is never Kill 'Em.

 

Disadvantages are Roleplaying Tools for GM AND Player. They help a Player define a Character's outlook. I will not kill, I will not let others kill if I can help it. It does not need to be shoved down our throats with ludicrous scenarios. It borders on Preaching to us that either a) the Disad is stupid you moron or HEY! If it's not a Major Dilema It Never Comes Up! but that's wrong, it comes up every time the Player doesn't use for force, chooses non-lethal (or even non-harmful) tactics.

[lemming]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

I was expecting, at least once, a code versus killing person to say something like "I stand in front of the innocents to sheild them while my teammate kills the alien." I would want to hear more like that.

Bad Phrasing IMO. Perhaps that's a low point CVK.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Use germs. Germs are what worked in the first 'Mr. Bubbles? Aliens are invading my house...' scenario. Or music, if you go by 'Attack of the Killer Tomatoes'. Or whatever. Sorry, I agree with Checkmate on this one -- the scenario has been presented essentially as it was presented in pretty much every 'age' out there, and every age has a different response.

 

So I guess the question on all these scenarios is, 'What Age is your character in?'