WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

[hfergus]

Ok, here's the scenario. Aliens have arrived and are beating the world's military - badly. They are utter xenophobes. If you can reason, and are not them, you must die. All of you. You find this out from themselves or friendly aliens. They cannot be reasoned with. They will keep coming until every one of them, or all of you are dead. They do not take captives - except to devise traps for the heroes. I am interested in whether their genocide would be be an option and what actions would be considered - esp. by heroes with code against killing. There are at least 100,000 of them. Unless you have very unusual powers (or munchkin powers), it's kill or be killed. They will fight to the last being.

 

My characters take:

 

Olorin: I have no problem killing them all as they started it and determined the rules. Trouble is, do you have any idea how hard it is to do genocide in practicality? Leave a breeding couple and they'll be back - eventually. Might take centuries, but they will be back. Ask me about orcs on my world.

 

Volt: I hate this. Killing them is necessary, but distastful. Maybe we could kill all but a couple and "convert" them. This still disturbs me however.

 

Black Tiger: They made the rules and they are the enemy. Kill them as quickly as possible.

 

Futurian: They still around? Oh wait, this is my past; your present. Oh good, I get to see how they were destroyed; that was an unanswered question where I came from.

 

Leadman: I guess I kill them all and hope we win. The world may never recover however.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

I haven't a single character that won't go hunter on a 'kill or be killed' scenario. What's worse -- allowing 4 billion 'innocent' people of your own race to die, or eliminating a hundred thousand or a hundred million violently xenophobic invaders?

 

None of my characters, I suppose, even come close to Superman, who felt (or tended to feel) that everything had a right to live. But even Superman (in Superman Vs. Alien) eventually decided that if the xenovores were to live, all the humans would die -- and that wasn't something he could countenance. Superman: 4,000, Aliens: 0.

 

So in the end? 99.999% of my characters (ever) would follow Black Tiger's take on the matter. "It's a war of extermination? Fine. Let's get this done as quickly and thoroughly as possible, to minimize the casualties of my race."

[Checkmate]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

The only character I currently play in FtF:

 

Apex: Yeah I guess we should kill them. I mean I know I'd be all right, but most people don't have this perfect bod.

[Yansuf]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

I really cannot conceive of a sane hero who wouldn't use whatever force is required. Unless of course, they can come up with a non-lethal way to stop them, like exile them all to the phantom zone.

[Psylint]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Revenant: Use the world wide confusing as cover to go exterminate the real evil, while piling up a reasonable body count against the aliens?

[Clonus]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

I shall weave flower garlands and give peace a chance.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Flip the table. This isn't the game I signed up for.

[Checkmate]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Flip the table. This isn't the game I signed up for.

Not into moral quandaries for your characters?

[Metaphysician]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

There's "moral quandaries", and there's "Your CvK Superhero is *wrong* if he isn't willing to kill thousands, mwahaha!"

 

This scenario, what with the aliens being entirely intelligent, but also utterly unpersuadable, falls into the latter category.

[Checkmate]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

There's "moral quandaries", and there's "Your CvK Superhero is *wrong* if he isn't willing to kill thousands, mwahaha!"

 

This scenario, what with the aliens being entirely intelligent, but also utterly unpersuadable, falls into the latter category.

Wow, I think you seriously underestimate players if you don't think they could come up with a 3rd option.

[Trebuchet]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Ok' date=' here's the scenario. Aliens have arrived and are beating the world's military - badly. They are utter xenophobes. If you can reason, and are not them, you must die. All of you. You find this out from themselves or friendly aliens. They cannot be reasoned with. They will keep coming until every one of them, or all of you are dead. They do not take captives - except to devise traps for the heroes. I am interested in whether their genocide would be be an option and what actions would be considered - esp. by heroes with code against killing. There are at least 100,000 of them. Unless you have [i']very[/i] unusual powers (or munchkin powers), it's kill or be killed. They will fight to the last being.

I can't imagine this would be a difficult decision for any sane superhero.

 

"It's like this - Either you and everyone you know and love dies; or the inexplicably genocidal xenophobic aliens die."

 

"Wow, that's tough. Let me sleep on it and I'll get back to you."

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

There's "moral quandaries", and there's "Your CvK Superhero is *wrong* if he isn't willing to kill thousands, mwahaha!"

 

This scenario, what with the aliens being entirely intelligent, but also utterly unpersuadable, falls into the latter category.

 

Really? Fascinating. I'm sure all the otherwise entirely intelligent people throughout history who have pursued racial cleansing, ethnic cleansing, tribal extinction, genocide, or however else you care to term it will feel entirely grateful.

 

Do I think the heros could 'persuade' such a force to withdraw, even if it was by handing them overwhelming defeats in battle? Sure. These are intelligent aliens, right? They will retreat to lick their wounds. But whether it's a religious command, a race-wide chemical psychosis, or some other reason, deliberate or incidental, that the xenophobes are out to scour the galaxies of all OTHER intelligent life, your 'Hi, Welcome To The War' choices are very likely to be 'Suck your thumb and cry' or 'Kill as many of the 6,000 aliens invading the city with high-powered plasma weapons before they can slaughter the 250,000 inhabitants.'

 

Or if you have super-speed, super-strength, and a mondo big bowl to use, maybe you can pick them all up nice and gentle and take away their guns and their knives and their fingers and their teeth and paddle their rumps and bring them home to mommy and scold them all soundly.

 

'Killing is wrong!!' breaks down. It's got what, an EGO - 5 roll to change your actions in regards to the situation. Well, okay, there's your situation: WAR. Unless you want to disarm, KO, capture, and imprison them all in isolation for the rest of whatever their natural lifespans happen to be -- unless you CAN one-punch-KO the opposition two or four at a time -- you're eventually going to reach the point where if you don't use your 2d6 RKA AP eyebeams or whatever you have handy, you're going to be responsible for Old Mrs. McCreedy's death. And the death of her cat.

 

Not to mention the other 46 people living in her apartment building.

 

Most superheros have a problem cleaning up the two dozen mook perps and the two or three super villains that's their usual fare -- you KO'd the Top Bad Guys in the fight, and a quarter or a third of the mooks, and the rest? They throw up their hands and surrender. 'Here you go, Officers, they'll come quietly now.' That's not the scenario presented. 'Geez, the first half-dozen I punched the lights out of five minutes ago are coming to -- and picking up clubs and garbage cans and bricks and are beating that young woman's brains in.' So are you gonna muck around with the same hundred or two hundred targets for the rest of the day, or are you gonna finalize the suckers?

 

You have 'Code Against Killing (Common, Total): 20 Points'. They have 'Must Exterminate Xenolife (Very Common, Total): 25 Points'. Hey, they're OTHERWISE very intelligent, and if you were one of THEM they'd be perfectly at ease sitting down to discuss the relative philosophical merits of the D'karf camp of libertines as compared to the Js'weki camp of spartan life. But you're not. So sorry, warmblood, ya gotta go. And therein lies your problem: which 'Total' Psych Disad is wrong? There's a bloody reason they're called disadvantages, and situations like this are where that comes into play. In certain situations, they're BOTH wrong.

 

Don't get pissy with the GM, throw over the table as CrosshairCollie said, when the GM decides to showcase your (or several of the players') PsychLims and the dire consequences for having it. Otherwise, well -- I thought you wanted to play a game, not 'hi, thanks for showing up, you win (isn't that nice), have some XP, see you next week.'

 

Still shouting about how the scenario's unfair? Going to keep on shouting until I modify the attitude of the aliens? Refusing to play?? Door's to your left, have a nice life. Which, by the by, is real -- and is always unfair, and very rarely in your favor. Get over yourself.

[psychonaut_raz]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

I've played a lot of Marvel Comics characters, so if we take those out of the mix and use only home-made.....I can't think of a single one of my characters who wouldn't ultimately kill them. Different characters would have different breaking points, but none of them are so reverent of life that they would just flat out refuse to kill the aliens.

 

There is Chrysalis, but I never actually got around to playing her....she's a total pacifist and wouldn't do it under any circumstances. I expect she would probably drive a lot of players nuts which may be why I've never gotten around to actually playing her in a game...

[Enforcer84]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Really? Fascinating. I'm sure all the otherwise entirely intelligent people throughout history who have pursued racial cleansing, ethnic cleansing, tribal extinction, genocide, or however else you care to term it will feel entirely grateful.

 

Do I think the heros could 'persuade' such a force to withdraw, even if it was by handing them overwhelming defeats in battle? Sure. These are intelligent aliens, right? They will retreat to lick their wounds. But whether it's a religious command, a race-wide chemical psychosis, or some other reason, deliberate or incidental, that the xenophobes are out to scour the galaxies of all OTHER intelligent life, your 'Hi, Welcome To The War' choices are very likely to be 'Suck your thumb and cry' or 'Kill as many of the 6,000 aliens invading the city with high-powered plasma weapons before they can slaughter the 250,000 inhabitants.'

 

Or if you have super-speed, super-strength, and a mondo big bowl to use, maybe you can pick them all up nice and gentle and take away their guns and their knives and their fingers and their teeth and paddle their rumps and bring them home to mommy and scold them all soundly.

 

'Killing is wrong!!' breaks down. It's got what, an EGO - 5 roll to change your actions in regards to the situation. Well, okay, there's your situation: WAR. Unless you want to disarm, KO, capture, and imprison them all in isolation for the rest of whatever their natural lifespans happen to be -- unless you CAN one-punch-KO the opposition two or four at a time -- you're eventually going to reach the point where if you don't use your 2d6 RKA AP eyebeams or whatever you have handy, you're going to be responsible for Old Mrs. McCreedy's death. And the death of her cat.

 

Not to mention the other 46 people living in her apartment building.

 

Most superheros have a problem cleaning up the two dozen mook perps and the two or three super villains that's their usual fare -- you KO'd the Top Bad Guys in the fight, and a quarter or a third of the mooks, and the rest? They throw up their hands and surrender. 'Here you go, Officers, they'll come quietly now.' That's not the scenario presented. 'Geez, the first half-dozen I punched the lights out of five minutes ago are coming to -- and picking up clubs and garbage cans and bricks and are beating that young woman's brains in.' So are you gonna muck around with the same hundred or two hundred targets for the rest of the day, or are you gonna finalize the suckers?

 

You have 'Code Against Killing (Common, Total): 20 Points'. They have 'Must Exterminate Xenolife (Very Common, Total): 25 Points'. Hey, they're OTHERWISE very intelligent, and if you were one of THEM they'd be perfectly at ease sitting down to discuss the relative philosophical merits of the D'karf camp of libertines as compared to the Js'weki camp of spartan life. But you're not. So sorry, warmblood, ya gotta go. And therein lies your problem: which 'Total' Psych Disad is wrong? There's a bloody reason they're called disadvantages, and situations like this are where that comes into play. In certain situations, they're BOTH wrong.

 

Don't get pissy with the GM, throw over the table as CrosshairCollie said, when the GM decides to showcase your (or several of the players') PsychLims and the dire consequences for having it. Otherwise, well -- I thought you wanted to play a game, not 'hi, thanks for showing up, you win (isn't that nice), have some XP, see you next week.'

 

Still shouting about how the scenario's unfair? Going to keep on shouting until I modify the attitude of the aliens? Refusing to play?? Door's to your left, have a nice life. Which, by the by, is real -- and is always unfair, and very rarely in your favor. Get over yourself.

Did a pacifist steal your lunch money?

[Enforcer84]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Emperia: my cosmic mentalist would mind wipe the lot of them and deposit them in another galaxy. Maybe she'd make them all think they were sheep.

 

Mantis would fight to the end but he's a martial artist with a few ch'i skills and can't kill 100,000 aliens on his own.

 

Captain Blaster would probably work with the pentagon to create weapons capable of turning the tide, as he too would die fighting solo against a race.

 

Powerman would fight to the death...so would all my other non world beaters for that matter.

 

Nilrem would dimensionally shunt them to Tyrannon's dimension and let them duke it out.

 

not much thought on this. They don't reason so why would we?

..of course if another alien race could tell us their motives they can't be that good at it.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Did a pacifist steal your lunch money?

 

See 'Corn flakes, pissed in.'

 

*grumps*

 

[Badger]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Badger- No problem with that. He'd kill for a lot less than that. Attempt to wipe out all of their kind present. Worry about the others of them if they are foolish enough to come.

 

 

Forsty Bob- Shoot first, ask questions later (ok shoot first, shoot again, and again and again. Maybe ask a question during reloading start shooting once reloaded, etc, etc. ) So you dont need to ask if this is a problem for him.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Wow' date=' I think you seriously underestimate players if you don't think they could come up with a 3rd option.[/quote']

 

The situation was put forth in such a way that there was no 3rd option. 'It is kill or be killed.'

 

I don't play in games like that.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

The situation was put forth in such a way that there was no 3rd option. 'It is kill or be killed.'

 

I don't play in games like that.

 

So ... um. Do you let your characters' DNPCs get captured? Your secret ID get threatened to be revealed? Do your hunteds actually hunt you, or are they just on your sheet for points and flavors?

 

The point I'm trying to make is that though this is a large-scale version of the situation, you could boil it down to your character and three other people -- one person that you may or may not know personally, but who is basically innocent and defenseless, and two beings that see 'your kind' as cockroaches to be exterminated. The two beings are strong enough to relatively resist your EB/Punch/Whatever, in that one is a Turn's worth of tussle for you if you try to restrain/KO the being, but if you go full-out, you have a very good chance of killing them in one or two actions.

 

Do you pull out all the stops and maybe/probably kill one of them so that you can prevent the SECOND one from killing the reasonably helpless NPC? Or do you run a very real risk of getting the innocent person killed because you can't restrain or knock out the two xenophobes before they do critical damage to the regular person?

 

The choice is one of serious RP: do you kill, or do you fail to save an innocent life? Do you hold to that CVK, and agonize over the fact that your code of morality has cost an innocent life, or do you slay one or both of the xenophobes, and mourn over the fact that in order to save an innocent life your most cherished code had to get a little tarnished, a little bent? You got 20 points for 'Code Against Killing'. It has to bite you on the keister eventually, and this is precisely the sort of situation that is going to be faced by your character. If you can't (or won't) play this, let the GM know when you sit down to make your character -- so that he can disallow any 'Total' PsychLims, because you refuse to play the situations in which the hard choice has to be made.

 

If it isn't a Limitation, it isn't worth any points. Unless your character is put between the Rock and the Hard Place -- between living up to the limitation on one hand, or needing to violate it to save a life / do good / fulfill other psych lims -- then you aren't limited by the PsychLim, and it shouldn't be worth any points.

 

Batman has CVK (Common, Total: 20 Points) despite the fact that he knows that Joker, or Croc, or Scarecrow, or any of the rest of his host of horrors is going to break out of Arkham and do horrible things. He knows that people are going to lose their lives. But he won't step over the line and kill them, because he also knows that once he does, he'll slide right down and become one of the monsters he fights. He hates the fact that they get out, but he won't kill them. (And apparently Gotham isn't in a state with the death penalty.)

[incrdbil]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Ok, here's the scenario. Aliens have arrived and are beating the world's military - badly. They are utter xenophobes. If you can reason, and are not them, you must die. All of you. You find this out from themselves or friendly aliens. They cannot be reasoned with. They will keep coming until every one of them, or all of you are dead. They do not take captives - except to devise traps for the heroes. I am interested in whether their genocide would be be an option and what actions would be considered - esp. by heroes with code against killing. There are at least 100,000 of them. Unless you have very unusual powers (or munchkin powers), it's kill or be killed. They will fight to the last being.

 

Under thoe conditions, Everyone of my characters ever played would be able to take lethal action against the aliens. Some would perhaps work more on ways on stopping them than directly fighting them (I'd expect Hornet to work on a massive defenseive weapon, or the big Bug Killer, rather than be out zapping them one by one., but then that protective of innocentsdisadvantages counts for something as well. I'd easily allow even Total CvJ PC's to kill these aliens, perhaps requiring at the most an ego roll..with a bonus.

 

I expect players to be playing heroes, not suicidal pacifists. Truthfully, I dont see anyone take more than a 15 pt CvK anymore. As I player I can understand--of all the limitatiosn that seem to be an easy 'gotcha' by the GM, putting you in the must kill or innocents die dilemma is the most obvious one.

 

Though truthfully, wheres the tension in this scenario? Its so extreme as to require very little thought. Now, uddenyl have the PC's get possibly different information..after enacting the Doomsday plan for the Aliens.....

[incrdbil]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

The two beings are strong enough to relatively resist your EB/Punch/Whatever, in that one is a Turn's worth of tussle for you if you try to restrain/KO the being, but if you go full-out, you have a very good chance of killing them in one or two actions.

 

As a player, I'd be sort of curious about this. I don't have a chance to subdue them or restrain them, but I can kill them easily? Unless I only had minor martial arts but carried a Portable Nuclear Cannon on my hip would this seem likely, which seems to be a character who wouldnt be sporting a CvK.

 

 

 

If it isn't a Limitation, it isn't worth any points. Unless your character is put between the Rock and the Hard Place -- between living up to the limitation on one hand, or needing to violate it to save a life / do good / fulfill other psych lims -- then you aren't limited by the PsychLim, and it shouldn't be worth any points.

 

The downside of these rock and a hard place situations is that players then don't take the limitations very seriously. You use them too much, or too brazenly contructed (and the unable to subdue in a turn, but able to kill in a phase is a pretty suspect situation) you'll simply see every PC change to non totals, or simply loose all interest in the RP. They'll just say "oh well, I kill him", then blame the dice if their ego roll doesnt work out, and if they dont kill the alien (due to a botched ego roll) and the innocent gets wiped, the player might not roleplay the situation seriously since he may feel railroaded into an impossible situation.

 

As a player, I certainly feel no character is set in stone, and certain dramatic moments may force character changes.

 

The rock and a hard place isnt the best way to have a disadvantage truly make its impact known. Make it tempting for the player to do something, but also make a much harder (and for the PC, much more dangerous or personally unsatisfying) alternative available.

 

Batman has CVK (Common, Total: 20 Points) despite the fact that he knows that Joker, or Croc, or Scarecrow, or any of the rest of his host of horrors is going to break out of Arkham and do horrible things. He knows that people are going to lose their lives. But he won't step over the line and kill them, because he also knows that once he does, he'll slide right down and become one of the monsters he fights.

 

And thats a wonderful illustration. I tend to think Batman holds innocents lives more highly than his own feelings--but thankfully they present more dramatic alternatives for him to choose from than set ups.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

So ... um. Do you let your characters' DNPCs get captured? Your secret ID get threatened to be revealed? Do your hunteds actually hunt you' date=' or are they just on your sheet for points and flavors?[/quote']

 

Code vs Killing can be used in other ways as well, not just in the "Kill or be killed" thing - it limits choices of actions during fights, it can limit tactical choices. It doesn't just have to be used in a "break your psych lim or die" - that is like the classic D&D Stupidity of GMs forcing a paladin into a two choice solution where either choice makes them lose their paladinhood.

 

There is also genre tone to consider - if you are playing a character in a four color type world where the idea of kill or be killed is just totally out of genre, and the GM throws one at you, then yeah not playing is a valid option, because the tone of the game is misrepresented - and if you signed up for an escapist four color campaign, and the GM goes all iron age on you, you likely will not have any fun playing (which is what I think Crosshair Collie was going for, just in a more succinct way)

 

Of my current characters:

Black Cat would, but would spend time mediating about the whole thing after, and be out of play for a while.

Angelfire would have no problems, she has moderate "reluctance to kill", but a strong "Protective of innocents".

Sift would likely to as well. She has a Code vs Killing, but things like Demons and Undead don't trigger it - she would likely consider genocidal aliens in the same group.

Terminal Velocity - I don't know. He is a teen super (well 19), and doesn't think in those kind of terms, he's still fairly lighthearted. He wouldn't work attacking the aliens directly, but in riot control, triage, and courier service (speedsters are good for that). He wouldn't want to be on the front lines, because he doesn't know if he could kill.

Meeb - no sweat - he's been a police officer in the past (in space). Sometimes you have to kill to take out the perp.

Smokeater - well the game he is in is about a group of extra dimensional aliens trying to invade. A side effect of the aliens is that they drive people mad.

As the idea for the WWYCD here is the campaign he is playing in (or close enough), he'd have to problems with this... it is literally what he was built for.

 

As a note, and older retired character of mine (retired at 800 pts or so) had a total CvK. He would have been in support or tactics, but if it came down to kill or be killed, he would choose death. That is how he was in the entire game I played him in.

[hfergus]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Boy, did I kick up a hornets nest. - As was intent, sort of.

 

As to the "flipping over the table" that seems to be a bit petty. I have a policy of at least once, and every so often, making sure you pay for your disad by making them, well, a disadvantage. If you don't like that, why are you trying to get power for free? Again, very petty. My players know my rules.

 

Note that my Volt, who would kill is uncomfortable with that fact. He has a small "Hesitiates to kill" diasad, that well, is a disad. He let people live that ended up killing many more. It also had them knock him out, capture him, etc. He paid for the disad more than once.

 

I was expecting, at least once, a code versus killing person to say something like "I stand in front of the innocents to sheild them while my teammate kills the alien." I would want to hear more like that.

 

I also expected some to circumvent the whole situation. "Into the phantom zone". Ever hear of beings escaping from there? I have. Good temporary solution, however. Note my Olorin says even killing them all may only be a temporary solution, but still endorses it.

 

As to the "all sane would kill" comment, I agree. However some would say killing is not sane. Dying as a species seems more insane to me however, unless you think your whole species is a blot on the universe and should all die. My comment on that is normally "You first. - Or are you a hypocrite?"

 

Thanks for the replies, and I look forward to more.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Of the characters that would end up in a game this happened in (because as Lord Morham pointed out this is not a very 4-Color/Silver Age plot type) . . .

 

Jessica (Metamorph Brick): Brings BBQ Sauce, starts killing. When she dies give her ten minutes and she'll be resurrected. Rinse, Repeat.

 

If I ended up in a game of the Silver/Bronze persuasion and this was really introduced...

 

Enigma (Mystic): Research and attempt to open portals to a dimension, preferably a very empty one, and send them there. If that fails and it is truly Kill Or Be Killed, resigned to the fight she would enter the fray and see everyone in Valhalla.

[Hermit]

Re: WWYCD Genocide - or Genocide?

 

Doctor Sanguine Would find the leaders of the aliens, and change them into human beings.