Opens book at random...

[Sean Waters]

So, I was wondering if I could open the book at random and find something to argue about.

 

 

I'm looking at page 139 of 5th ed (not 5ER, that's at home): Power Defence. It specifically says that PowDef is not resistant but can be made resistant by purchasing damage resistance for it.

 

Why?

 

Call me old fashioned but you can't buy 'killing' drains, can you*? I mean, there is not an advantage that allows you to make non-killing attacks do 'killing' damage, so there's no actual advantage to making your PowDef resistant is there? Similarly for other attacks, like Ego Attack: even with the 'does Body' advantage, the Body done is 'normal' so mental defence stops it just fine.

 

I suppose you can buy a killing attack and make it AVLD, but even then the attack only does Stun, unless you buy the 'Does Body' advantage and that (as mentioned above) does 'Normal' Body, so you still don't need resistant defences.

 

So where is the advantage in having resistant PowDef?

 

Oh, and do feel free to open the book at random....

[pinecone]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

So, I was wondering if I could open the book at random and find something to argue about.

 

 

I'm looking at page 139 of 5th ed (not 5ER, that's at home): Power Defence. It specifically says that PowDef is not resistant but can be made resistant by purchasing damage resistance for it.

 

Why?

 

Call me old fashioned but you can't buy 'killing' drains, can you*? I mean, there is not an advantage that allows you to make non-killing attacks do 'killing' damage, so there's no actual advantage to making your PowDef resistant is there? Similarly for other attacks, like Ego Attack: even with the 'does Body' advantage, the Body done is 'normal' so mental defence stops it just fine.

 

I suppose you can buy a killing attack and make it AVLD, but even then the attack only does Stun, unless you buy the 'Does Body' advantage and that (as mentioned above) does 'Normal' Body, so you still don't need resistant defences.

 

So where is the advantage in having resistant PowDef?

 

Oh, and do feel free to open the book at random....

 

OK, I'd never let this into a game I was running...but...if some weirdo was to have a "Gamma ray laser" that does RKA, AVLD, Does body...I'd consider "Resistant Power Def" be the Def required...the legislative intent (or writer intent) seems clear...why is this specificly adressed? Because it might be requied...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Technically, an AVLD KA would do full damage unless you had at least one point of resistant power defense. Practically, I consider this abominably stupid, and I would like to see the system indicate either that there is no such thing as resistant exotic defenses (ie that AVLD acts againts any power defense) or that all exotic defenses are resistant and cannot be made non-resistant (ie that AVLD acts againts any power defense).

 

The present system merely provides an avenue for munckinry to allow an attack that is only defended by spending 50% more than your exotic defense is really worth.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Just in case you need it some day.

 

I've never seen it used. Probably never will. But at least you know the system is designed to allow it. It's not like any problems are being caused by leaving the option open. . .

 

The worth of an exotic defense widely varies from game to game. I've been in games where over half the PCs and NPCs had adjustment powers of some nature and Power Defense was incredibly important. And I've been in games where they were so rare as to be a complete "Woah!" factor in the game when encountered.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

I'm completely with GA, and if I could rep him again this soon, I would .

 

This is, as he points out, an _option_. There are myriad rules, constructs, and "proper" rules-following methodologies that I do or do not agree with.

 

Options, however, are just that, and are classified as such because there is never any indication that they are required, neccessary, or even appropriate.

 

I just can't find anything to get worked up about with an 'option.'

 

But Sean, my friend, from the moment I read:

"I was wondering if I could open the book at random and find something to argue about."

 

I had no real doubt that you could

 

Keep up the good work!

[Comic]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Some GM's (let's call them a non-offensive, non-judgemental term.. uh.. hrm.. erm.. can't think of one that applies) want to build powers, or let their players build powers, that are going to hurt if they land no matter what, that step outside the ordinary concept of defenses balancing attacks.

 

Having this convoluted situation in the mechanics allows those GMs to do that, while the rest of the GM's in the world (let's call them 'the sane ones') can happily avoid the twists and turns of this issue and get what I like to call 'fun' happening.

 

See, everyone wins.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

"Do you have Power Defense?"

"Yes"

"Hardened Power Defense?"

"Yes"

"Doubly Hardened Power Defense?"

"Yes, ever since that Double Armor Piercing Soul Attack."

"Hmm.... Is it bought Resistant?"

(Stream of unprintable curses.)

[Enforcer84]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Because it's tuesday.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that Power Defense isn't automatically the defense for an AVLD; that's 'whatever the player defines'. 1d6 RKA, AVLD (Mental Defense), Does Body? That's why you buy Resistant Mental Defense. No matter what the AVLD goes against, though, it's going to cost a whole buttload for the attacker.

 

1d6 RKA, AVLD (Power Defense, +1.5), Does Body (+1): 52 Actives. 6 points Power Defense: 6 points. Resistant Defenses (6 points Power Defense): 3 points. Woo, 9 points to defend against all of the Body a 52-point power can dish out. It's just that not many people are going to BUY that defense -- which is why it's Attack Versus Limited Defense, and costs so darn much.

 

However, the belief you stated, Sean, is in error; if an AVLD or NND attack starts out as against Resistant defenses, i.e. an HKA or an RKA, then when you purchase 'Does Body (+1)', that requirement for Resistant defenses remains in force. It doesn't get mutated into Normal body damage; it carries its dangerous damage ability with it. You are, after all, paying 52.5 points per 1d6.

[Comic]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

In campaigns where AVLD converts an attack into a Special power, and thereby prevents it from being put into a VPP, Multipower or Elemental Control, then the cost of the attack might balance the cost of the defense.

 

Otherwise, for 1d6 RKA AVLD (Power Defense) Explosion: 60 AP, you might pay .. 60 pts allocated temporarily and 6 END, if it's in your VPP, or 6 pts and 6 END if it's in your Multipower. Congratulations, the defense now costs 1.5x what the attack costs, and failing to pay this exhorbitant price results in having your foci destroyed and you dying, if caught in the open and attacked from munchkin-range, in under a turn, with no escape.

 

For a mere 7 more points, your attacker can at least put you out of your misery faster, by getting a naked advantage to autofire this monster.

 

So, no. No, this is not a balanced option. Not by a long shot. Not in any reasonable system, except possibly if you're balancing by the principals of Call of Cthulu or Paranoia.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Otherwise' date=' for 1d6 RKA AVLD (Power Defense) Explosion: 60 AP, you might pay .. 60 pts allocated temporarily and 6 END, if it's in your VPP, or 6 pts and 6 END if it's in your Multipower. Congratulations, the defense now costs 1.5x what the attack costs, and failing to pay this exhorbitant price results in having your foci destroyed and you dying, if caught in the open and attacked from munchkin-range, in under a turn, with no escape.[/quote']

 

But isn't that true of ANY Attack Power tossed into a Framework?

 

Mr Blast pays 6 Points in his MP for a 12D6 EB and you have to pay twice that to stop all the Body on an average attack roll, plus some to soak some of that Stun Damage. . .

 

This isn't a very good argument.

[Comic]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Ah. Sorry. Left the rest of the argument for Mr. Obvious, who appears to have the night off.

 

The majority of attack powers in frameworks have common defenses, or don't do Body. This therefore is different from that, in the following way: take a character and put them up against an opponent without an AVLD Does Body attack, and their odds of survival depend on a number of factors: DEF, CON, DCV, effectiveness against the attacker's defenses, REC, Ego; take the same character and put them up against the AVLD Does Body attack, and the only significant factors are 'do they have the right defense?', or 'can they end the fight in time?' (Sure, there's the 'dive for cover until the attacker's out of END' option, but it's a perishingly poor plan in terms of long term survival chances.)

 

AVLD Does Body escalates the brutality of characters who will survive long campaigns. They begin to buy Regeneration, fast escape powers, and one-shot all-or-nothing attacks, because that's the smart response to a potential wide variety of certain-death attackers. If you want everyone to play the Hulk, AVLD Does Body is the way to go. If you want variety, diversity and originality, it's an obstacle.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that Power Defense isn't automatically the defense for an AVLD; that's 'whatever the player defines'. 1d6 RKA, AVLD (Mental Defense), Does Body? That's why you buy Resistant Mental Defense. No matter what the AVLD goes against, though, it's going to cost a whole buttload for the attacker.

 

1d6 RKA, AVLD (Power Defense, +1.5), Does Body (+1): 52 Actives. 6 points Power Defense: 6 points. Resistant Defenses (6 points Power Defense): 3 points. Woo, 9 points to defend against all of the Body a 52-point power can dish out. It's just that not many people are going to BUY that defense -- which is why it's Attack Versus Limited Defense, and costs so darn much.

 

However, the belief you stated, Sean, is in error; if an AVLD or NND attack starts out as against Resistant defenses, i.e. an HKA or an RKA, then when you purchase 'Does Body (+1)', that requirement for Resistant defenses remains in force. It doesn't get mutated into Normal body damage; it carries its dangerous damage ability with it. You are, after all, paying 52.5 points per 1d6.

 

 

You're right, butt he trouble witht he 'it only costs a little to defend against' argument is that will almost always make th eatatck rare, and so the defence either largely pointless, and not used, or not bought at all. Rarae attacks with unusual defences are often very effective, unless you are playing a 1000 point character and really can't think what to spend those next few points on.

 

I've always seen that as a problem, not with Hero, but with Hero's universal applicability. The very trouble with the immense flexibility is that we are all, to a lagre extent, playing different games. I was hoping that The Ultimate Energy Projector would solve that to a large extent, but it has not quite done what I'd hoped for: presenting a 'standard sfx framework'. It has come close, but not quite made it.

[Alibear]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

I often take FREd into the bathroom with me and open him randomly... for a quick look.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

I often take FREd into the bathroom with me and open him randomly... for a quick look.

 

 

Indeed: nothing like a good book at....bathtime

[Alibear]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Bathtime...sure.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Ah. Sorry. Left the rest of the argument for Mr. Obvious, who appears to have the night off.

 

The majority of attack powers in frameworks have common defenses, or don't do Body. This therefore is different from that, in the following way: take a character and put them up against an opponent without an AVLD Does Body attack, and their odds of survival depend on a number of factors: DEF, CON, DCV, effectiveness against the attacker's defenses, REC, Ego; take the same character and put them up against the AVLD Does Body attack, and the only significant factors are 'do they have the right defense?', or 'can they end the fight in time?' (Sure, there's the 'dive for cover until the attacker's out of END' option, but it's a perishingly poor plan in terms of long term survival chances.)

 

AVLD Does Body escalates the brutality of characters who will survive long campaigns. They begin to buy Regeneration, fast escape powers, and one-shot all-or-nothing attacks, because that's the smart response to a potential wide variety of certain-death attackers. If you want everyone to play the Hulk, AVLD Does Body is the way to go. If you want variety, diversity and originality, it's an obstacle.

 

I'm not going to argue against this, because it's pretty much true. AVLD Does Body is usually a bad idea to let into a game.

 

I just found your Frameworks Cost argument to be fatally flawed and simply wrong.

[Comic]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

I just found your Frameworks Cost argument to be fatally flawed and simply wrong.

 

Agreed, from the point of view of a frameworks argument. Framework builds are generally a good thing.

 

From the point of view of "How do I take a perfectly reasonable character design and turn it into a campaign-destroying freak?" argument, if you happen to have a character with a VPP or a multipower anyway, and happen to think, "What's the harm in one little AVLD Does Body Attack?", the harm is there.

 

If you have a character with their AVLD Does Body Attack outside of frameworks, then there's a good chance the character might actually be balanced. They've invested a substantial portion of their points into this thing they do, or they've put significant limitations on the thing.

 

If the character's only major attack is the AVLD Does Body, then fighting to defend just from that one attack, although it is potent and possibly unbalanced, becomes a matter of strategy rather than an impossibility. If the AVLD Does Body has a 10x END cost, or one Use per Day, or Fragile OAF, there are once again many ways to survive the fight, instead of two-and-a-half.

 

Of course, if you have a team with a Hulk on it, and can dictate who dances with whom, an opportunity for a faster than usual combat as the rest of the team withdraws and the mechanics get simplified: your Hulk has many dice, but few phases per Turn; your AVLDer has few dice and generally does no knockback.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

I'm not going to argue against this, because it's pretty much true. AVLD Does Body is usually a bad idea to let into a game.

 

.

 

Generally. Although there are certain spells in a fantasy game in which that kind of build is the perfect way to model your effect.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Heck I've USED it. But carefully.

 

Many gamers aren't careful. The D20 Munchkin (his title for himself) will fully admit he'd exploit it because that's D20 has taught him to do.

[Arkham]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

Not only have I used it, but I'm using it _right now_... IYKWIMAITYD.

 

However my current game is a Mystics game, where power defense as part of a force field is perfectly reasonable.

 

But don't get me started on RKA AVLD: Flash Defense( smell/taste )...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

But don't get me started on RKA AVLD: Flash Defense( smell/taste )...

 

That's one of my favorite constructs!!

 

I've yet to have a GM let me use it.

[Comic]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

How to Tell If You May Be an AVLD Does Body Munchkin:

 

1) You have only ever bought AVLD Does Body on Killing Attacks.

2) Over 2/3's of all your characters have an AVLD Does Body attack.

3) Your Real Point cost for your AVLD Does Body attack is less than 10% your total character cost, and still is at campaign Damage Class limits.

4) You have an AVLD Does Body Killing Attack for a character with a Code Vs. Killing.

5) You have at least two other main attacks that do the campaign maximum.

6) Your OCV with AVLD Does Body exceeds 80% of the campaign limit, or the attack is AoE.

7) AVLD Does Body in your Instant VPP.. against defenses you've never seen (except on yourself).

8) You have an AVLD Does Body attack on a character with less than 14- in Knowledge, Weaponsmith, or Science to understand how to do so much exotic harm.

9) You spend a lot of time using Stealth and Concealment in combats where anyone on the other side has the applicable defense, or regeneration and substantial body.

10) If you come up against someone with AVLD Does Body that you don't have the right defense against, you feel like the GM is out to get you (even if you are the GM).

11) People you play with call you an AVLD Does Body Munchkin to your face.

12) You keep a tally on your character sheet for all the people you've killed with this particular attack.

13) Inside your head, you call it, "My Precious."

14) More than half of the items on this list apply to you, and you're sure you _aren't_ an AVLD Does Body Munchkin.

15) Overwhelming urge right this second to build a new character based on AVLD RKA Does Body Explosion vs Flash Defense Smell/Taste. Or to add it to a current character.

[Arkham]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

16) You come across someone who _does_ have the right defense, and complain that the GM is out to get you.

17) On the rare times you don't play a character with AVLD Does Body, you play a character with lots of resistant power defense and flash defense ( smell/taste ), just in case...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Opens book at random...

 

*laughs*

 

I am amused. OTOH, I DO have a character that has an HKA AVLD Does Body weapon -- a lightsaber -- but the AVLD is 'Luck/Dodge-based resistant Defenses, or rED Force Field/Force Wall', for a +3/4 advantage, using the 'limited version of the regular defense' portion of the advantage. In a superhero campaign, no, the Brick isn't usually going to have those defenses -- but then, the Jedi isn't going to typically go against a brick, and if he does, the brick SHOULD suffer, IMO.

 

Do I think that all AVLD Does Body attacks are good? Bloody no. But that's the way I build my lightsabers, because that's the way that makes sense to me. (And because I don't want to build an NND Does Body that Lightpoint, with his force field and AoE blast, can basically ignore me with.)